When there’s an empty seat on a plane you like better than yours, can you switch? Different airlines take different approaches, and for the ones that say ‘no’ that’s a relatively recent change. It’s no surprise customers are confused.
- Years ago open seats were pretty much fair game. I certainly moved rows on long haul flights growing up in search of a bunch of empty seats where I could lay down.
- Southwest Airlines still has open seating, you can take any seat you wish. You can choose any seat that’s open when you board (and they’ll sell earlier boarding). However once on it’s plane it’s Lord of the Flies. Some passengers save seats for others who are boarding later. Others put fake crumpled up tissues on the middle seat so no one will sit there.
- However United, Delta, and American all monetize seat assignments, selling you the specific seat you may want. Each of those takes a different tact though.
Delta calls their extra legroom seats at the front of the plane “Comfort+” and it’s a different fare type. Effectively, it’s a different cabin just like coach is different than business class.
American wants to sell you extra legroom seats, but leaves it up to flight attendants’ discretion whether to keep passengers from moving into empty seats.
At United the practice is customers aren’t supposed to move to extra legroom seats without paying.
One confused United customer thought they should be able to change to an open seat in the economy cabin (that had more legroom). They were told no by a flight attendant and took to twitter.
United doesn’t allow it because,
- They sell these seats
- They want customers to pay for them
- If customers get them free, and see others getting them free, more people may take that change instead of paying
So it’s the airline’s revenue-maximizing strategy. It’s their business, their rules. Instead of saying that, however, United tried to make a moral case and – I think – fails badly
Hi, Krunal. Economy Plus seats do carry an extra charge and letting customers move to those seats is not fair to the customers who did pay for the upgrade. ^BA
— United Airlines (@united) September 7, 2019
According to this logic United shouldn’t be able to sell cheap fares or offer MileagePlus awards because it is unfair to people that pay full fare.
Of course that is wrong. Passengers who buy Economy Plus get Economy Plus and are in no way harmed when other passengers get it free – via elite status, via luck of the draw or otherwise.
The customers who choose to pay for Economy Plus are then afforded that extra space. If you were to purchase a Toyota, you would not be able to drive off with a Lexus, because it was empty. ^BA
— United Airlines (@united) September 7, 2019
This may be the first time United slimline economy seats have ever been compared to a Lexus, although two years ago I heard a similar argument from a flight attendant comparing Economy Plus to a Mercedes.
This is also a weak argument. Sitting in an open seat that can never be sold (because the plane is already in the air) is not the same thing as taking a physical car off of a lot where it is waiting to be sold. In the former case United loses nothing, in the latter case the loss is real.
The better argument is: we do not allow passengers to move to better seats without paying extra (except under our own terms, for our operational.convenience or elite perks) because that would encourage passengers to take a chance rather than paying on future trips.
Comparing it to stealing can’t be right, because the airline hasn’t given up anything, and claiming it harms other passengers isn’t right either because other passengers still got exactly what they paid for.
Since norms vary across airlines and have only recently changed it’s not a moral failing of passengers who don’t know or understand the position that any given airline takes here. On the contrary, it’s incumbent on the airline to explain in clear terms what their policy is and why rather than suggesting a passenger wanting to move is doing something untoward.
To move from Economy to Economy plus without paying is sitting in a cabin other than the one for which you were ticketed (as represented on your boarding pass). It’s similar to moving to business if you’re ticketed in Economy or Economy plus. It’s stealing. It should only be done when explicitly asked to by a member of the crew.
Taking something you didn’t pay for ISN’T immoral?
Odd perspective to argue.
Good morning, Gary
Actually, on a lightly sold flight from Hartford, CT to Detroit on Delta during Thanksgiving week 2018 (Tuesday midday), a coworker asked an FA if he could join me in the exit row (I was at the window seat, 2 empties next to me). They said OK. Then treated us as if we were actually IN Comfort + and gave us free Woodford (and a refill) and snacks from the premium snack basket. Maybe all due to a light load, not sure, don’t care.
Delta FTW…as much as one can say that.
It sounds like United’s flight attendant did clearly explain the policy to this passenger. This passenger just doesn’t agree with the policy.
I don’t see any “moral” judgment in the tweet, and the social media rep was not totally off-base in suggesting there is some detriment to passengers who paid for the better seat (either with cash or through the time and money required to earn elite status). Because E+ seats are sold, and on United, a large chunk of the plane is E+, you’re more likely to have one or multiple empty seats nearby you in E+. So part of what you’re buying is a chance at a less crowded seating area (in many train systems around the world, “first class” seating is basically the same as coach, just with a much less crowded cabin). True, empty seats are not guaranteed — if your particular flight is totally sold out, they will operationally upgrade people, and some passengers (elites, non-revs) may be assigned those seats based on the relationship they’ve earned with the airline, not payment of a specific additional fee. Still, on an average flight, E+ will be less crowded than E-. At a minimum, United can strive to provide that benefit to E+ passengers whenever unsold seats in E+ permit — and so that’s part of the enhanced experience of E+.
In other words, even if United knew to a certainty that a given passenger is so cheap they will never under any circumstances pay for E+, so there’s no potential loss of revenue in allowing *that* passenger to move to an unsold E+ seat, United still wouldn’t want to let that passenger sit there because they’d prefer to make the experience better for those that did pay (or otherwise earn unpaid access to those seats). Letting someone sit there for free lessens the experience of those who paid, and United would prefer to enhance the experience of those who paid, rather than that of those who did not.
I agree the analogy to buying a Lexus is inapt, but let’s say we were talking about a rental car, where you booked a Toyota and you’re taking it off the rental company’s lot right before closing time on a Friday, they’re closed for the weekend, and you’re due to drop it off by Monday morning before they open, so there’s no chance of renting the Lexus to anyone else in the interim. Do they give you a better car for free? Of course not. Wear and tear, etc. Unless you’ve earned an entitlement to free upgrades through their elite program, they’d be happy to quote you a price for an upgrade, or give you the one you booked.
Actually, the passengers that pay for better seats might also be gambling on a higher likelihood of empty adjacent seats. This is part of the deal. When someone self upgrades they are taking away the empty row the person really intended to pay for.
If I paid $100 for Comfort Plus on top of my Main Cabin fare and on board some one who bought a Basic Economy ticket for $50, which is typically whom the interloper is as they get the middle seats, came up to sit for free – come on now, that’s just wrong. Plus the seat comes with perks like free liquor. I’d prefer the seat be empty so I can relax and enjoy my flight instead of some cheap person stealing a seat take up the space. You’re off base here, as comments so far reveal.
Good for the FAs saying NO. They should!
Gary by your logic sitting in first when you paid for economy isn’t theft
The Delta distinction is only in a GDS – onboard there’s no divider – same distinction as on United
Maybe they should all put a mini divider
@Gary Tom is exactly right! First class fills up due to cheap discount F fares, paid saver award tickets, paid mileage upgrades, paid cash upgrades, and free elite upgrades. But elites also have access to free E+. The two “cabins” are analogous and are policed accordingly. Under no circumstances can a non-elite breeze into First willy-nilly and same holds for E+.
Btw, getting an empty middle in E+ is one of the unpublished perks and there’s a whole thread on FT about random pax being seated last minute in E+ instead of E-. The consensus is that 1) NRSA are entitled to it and 2) the software/GA tend to fill front to back so if you want an empty middle, aim for the back of E+.
Same as going to a sports game. Just because the court side seat is vacant doesn’t mean you can have it when you purchased a nose bleed seat wayyy at the top.
As with other commenters I’m not sure why you perceive a difference in self-upgrading to the extra legroom product and the business class cabin (or maybe you don’t)?
By the same token, I suppose lounges should allow otherwise ineligible passengers when there are seats available?
The only real difference is the extent to which access to the “better” product is restricted. It’s really difficult to tell the difference between the E+ and E cabins in many cases and there’s no dedicated personnel to keep people out.
Southwest doesn’t have these problems.
So, using the same logic, economy passengers should be able to take any empty business and first class seats on a longhaul flight?
So if there are empty seats on a plane, someone should be able to walk on and take it for free since it doesn’t take anything away from the people who paid for a ticket?
Weak Gary. Your headline is clickbait. The rep used a poor analogy, but the customer asked, was told no, and continued to ask and complain. Why not do a piece on customers who are reasonably told no in response to their request yet continue to push back?
Since the main theme is that poor, pitiful, United Airlines may be out the difference in fare, maybe they should have the FA charge the person moving to a different seat. Not that there are many people not already on the flight, while it is in the air already, that are outside clamoring for that empty seat. And, who knows, that extra $20, $30 or $40 could be just what keeps UA out of another round of Bankruptcy Court.
On an AA red eye from. LHR to JFK, I once asked a FA if I could move from my aisle Business
Seat to the window seat across the aisle. FA said ok.
Subsequently another FA for some reason asked to see my seat assignment, scolded me and told me to return my assigned seat. I explained I had asked permission of another FA and described her. He grunted and gave me the evil eye the rest of the trip. Particularly during the period service was suspended and self service snacks were set up. He acted like he was making sure I wasn’t stealing. Creepy.
Donato nailed my comment. I paid for an open seat near an open center seat. After take-off Joe cheap eyes the open seat and jumps in! WRONG! This did take away from the comfort I paid for, so yes, I did lose on the comfort I paid extra $$$ to enjoy.
Apparently poor, pitiful, United Airlines is worried about possibly missing out on every single penny they can wrench from the pocket of it’s customers. That being the case, possibly they could instruct the FA to just charge the customer for the move to a different seat. Although, I am pretty sure there is no line outside the door of an aircraft in the air of customers willing to pay for the empty seat. Who knows, however, that extra $20. $30 or $40 dollars the FA can collect may just keep UA out of Bankruptcy Court yet again. They might even have an onboard auction for the empty seats. Right or wrong in this situation, I might suggest that UA refrain from publicly demeaning its customers.
UNITED AIRLINES IS PREACHING MORALITY?
There is no hope for the world as we know it.
There is no hope for the world as we knew it.
btw, in theaters (you know, the kind where they have plays) and concert halls it has always been acceptable to move to different seats discreetly, unobtrusively after the first scene, first act, first movement.
That did not apply to moving into box seats which were closed off, as is first class and business.
That did not need a theological exegesis.
Frankly, the airlines and flying have become so uncomfortable with so little regard for the passenger, they really can keep their misery. I seldom subject myself any longer.
@Brijar @Donato – you don’t know a seat next to you would remain open at departure when you pay for your seat, you are not buying a seat with an empty middle unless you purchase both seats yourself
@RP FAs can and do charge people to change seats. It’s a feature on their iPhones!
This is so pathetic. I’m guessing you want seats for free as well. People need to stop being cheap and grow a pair.
I’ll never forget moving to a different seat early on in this process. We were already i the air and the seat belt sign was off. The whole row directly in front of me was open and I moved. The flight attendant could not have been nastier in her shouting at me to get back to the seat I had paid. I was in college, flying home for spring break and didn’t know the game yet. Needless to say, I will choose that airline only as a last result to this very day.
When you are away from home on a trip, your house is vacant, why don’t you let people sleep in for free while you are away? Per your logic, you are not using the house anyway. You whole article is not even making any sense, instead I can only see that you hate United, and you are having biases.
Would you like a better comparison? If you go to a football game and buy seats all the way in the nose bleeders, you are not going to be able to move into a box seat simply because it is empty. If you buy a concert ticket on the lawn, you cant sit front row and center because it’s empty. You choose to pay for a cheaper ticket, so you sit in those seats. It is wrong and rude to believe you are entitled to something for free that others paid for.
It’s not just the seat that people are paying extra for, it’s also the expedited beverage service as well as free liquor and food on some routes. If someone wants to enjoy those perks then they need to pay for it. Moving to an empty seat out of your ticketed cabin that’s more expensive is not only annoying for the crew but also for the other passengers who paid for that service.
Im happy that United like all other major airlines have that policy in place and stand behind their FA’s when they tell passengers to either pay the fee for upgrade or go back to their assigned seat.
This article is absolutely ridiculous in it’s weak attempt at trying to defend the actions of obnoxiously entitled passengers that attempt to get things for free and then proceed to to argue with FA’s when their cheapscape plan fails.
What a stupid article.
Those sets are not always charged extra. I’ve booked same day travel and been assigned in those by the system when I checked in. Is it a glitch in the system? I dunno. But I also know many seats on the plane have a premium. People typically move around when there are open seats. Just two days ago on a flight that boarded seats open, I watched a few people ask and granted permission to move. It’s not a big deal.
Lots of folks not actually reading the article, responding purely with mood affiliation.
I do not suggest it’s ok to move. I give the real, perfectly justified argument why United has this policy.
My criticism of United is simply that they offer explanations that aren’t true, and arguments that are weak. It’s not a moral argument about fairness to other passengers and it’s not related to stealing a Lexus.
The ticketing and seating process on United is peculiarly obfuscated, especially if you don’t fly them often. Gotta buy “up” to Econ (not BASIC econ, mind you) just for the opportunity to then buy “up” again (a window maybe), and then the upselling really starts to (wow!) econ plus, and another opportunity to pay again for better still. ALL STILL ECONOMY – who are they kidding (a lot of people I guess…).
United has been the worst at this sort of stuff for as long as I’ve been flying (40+ years).
I think it depends on the flight but Gary has a good point. I was recently on a one hour flight on a regional jet. After the doors closed I moved up 1 row to the emergency exit row, only to be told I had to pay $40 to sit there. For the record, there was no one sitting in the row so I would not have been disturbing the space of other people. Any expedited beverage service would have been marginal at best given there were only 70 people on the plane.
To those comparing this to upgrading to business class, there’s a huge difference. Emergency exit rows simply offer more room, nothing more or less. On the other hand, business class is significantly differentiated from economy class. There is a larger and more comfortable seat, dedicated FA’s/better service, better food, more overhead bin space, closer to the front of the plane, etc. Some of this costs the airline additional money, eg. the food. Given the significant difference between business and economy it’s reasonable for airlines to charge a fee to upgrade.
With emergency exit row seats, as Gary said, the plane is already in the air and no revenue is possible from this seat, so why wouldn’t you let passengers have a more comfortable flight? There’s a certain cruelty in making people sit in their assigned seats if it doesn’t cost you anything to make them more comfortable. Then again it’s United we’re talking about. In my experience they hate their customers.
United is right just used an awkward car analogy. When you say rent a car and you are given the Toyota instead of Lexus even though the Lexus will be available, there are higher insurance costs and wear and tear considerations that factor into why a rental car company won’t let a person drive an available Lexus for no upgrade charge (save being a member of the loyalty program). With an airplane seat, as long as no extra service is given then the costs are already set and the airline isn’t losing money or increasing their risk by letting someone self upgrade for free.
United does not want to allow that for two reasons. First is to protect the integrity of the product and experience for people who paid for the seat and experience. It is not fair that someone will be paying huge sums yet someone pays nothing for it. Second, this makes it more likely a person will not pay for the upgrade ahead of time taking the chance there will be available seats they can take for free. This means less revenue for United if some people aren’t paying for the upgrade for this reason if they would have with a no self upgrade policy.
I’d like to understand the morality of the extra charge placed on seats with a few mm of extra leg room and on top of that, the practice of overbooking and taking people off the plane who have legitimately already paid for their seat. If you’re feeling up to it, also explain how a passenger can be “a valued customer” by subjecting the passenger to an overly confined seating space, especially for long hauls. Morals are relative, especially when there’s a buck to be made.
I don’t understand anyone supporting the idea that a person should allow to be able to exchange to a seat they did not paid for just because they asked. Recently I was traveling with my younger brother and his girlfriend and as a gift for his birthday I purposely paid extra to be able to choose the seat for them to seat together. However after boarding is completed a customer who purchased basic economy tickets asked the flight attendant to change seat so he could seat with his family. So my brother being kind gave up his seat but that really make me furious. If you want to seat with your family other people would want to do the same. Why do you think you can saved money by purchasing cheaper tickets and forced people who paid extra to give up the seat out of the kindness of their heart and think it’s a totally normal practice.
Gary,
You are the one that is missing the point. United simply said that they sell certain seats at a higher price and they don’t want people who didn’t pay the higher price to take those seats. Where is the moral issue?
Moving to a seat that you could have selected when you purchased your ticket initially should be a non-issue but I have no problem with the airline not allowing moving to a seat that you would have have had to pay more for at booking.
If moving seats is allowed, how does the cabin crew decide who gets the free upgrade to the empty seat? Are moves only allowed to empty rows to preserve the free benefit of extra space to those who paid for E+? Is an inflight auction held to decide which Main Cabin pax get to move? What if more pax want a free upgrade than there are seats?
Imagine all the complaints about why the FA upgraded someone else.
@Alex – If you wanted to sit in a seat that costs more and not pay the extra cost, you’re assuming an entitlement to which you are not entitled. Sorry, but if they have a $40 price tag on that seat, you need to pay it.
@Maggie C – that isn’t what United said. They said it’s unfair TO OTHER PASSENGERS.
@DF LOL. Your comment reminded me of an amalgam of Yogi Berra-isms.
I think UA should not only charge based on seats (exit row, window etc), but also based on customer’s home location to the airport. People who live closer to the actual airport should pay more as they have a more convenient travel experience. Why not profit from that too?
10 years ago it was unimaginable to charge for bags or exit row. You just wait until 2030 and you will see what obscene ways UA (and AA to follow) will have come up with to fleece customers even more.
“However United, Delta, and American all monetize seat assignments, selling you the specific seat you may want. Each of those takes a different tact though.”
While I agree that self-upgrading to a different cabin requires a lack of *tact*, each of the airlines takes a different *tack* as to how extra-legroom economy is treated. They also differ in whether passengers will be subject to *attack* (ahem, UA).
“Sitting in an open seat that can never be sold (because the plane is already in the air) […] [means] United loses nothing”
“that would encourage passengers to take a chance rather than paying on future trips.”
That’s a loss, no?
I was on a United E+ seat once, IAD-SMF. There were a number of empty seats. The FA made an announcement, once airborne, that there was space there and that if anyone wanted to upgrade, let her know and she would tell him or her what the price would be.
@Gary
{{Gary Leff says:
September 8, 2019 at 3:47 pm
Lots of folks not actually reading the article, responding purely with mood affiliation.
I do not suggest it’s ok to move. I give the real, perfectly justified argument why United has this policy.
My criticism of United is simply that they offer explanations that aren’t true, and arguments that are weak. It’s not a moral argument about fairness to other passengers and it’s not related to stealing a Lexus.}}
There was nothing in their response that wasn’t “true” or were “weak”. Even their first response you quoted, United clearly references “extra charge”. How is that not being honest, or true?
I’m all for UA stopping people who haven’t paid from moving. Just wish they’d inform their flight attendants.
I was flying transatlantic and deliberately paid more to get more leg room, closer to front of cabin and hopefully no one next to me. Latter was a gamble and I was happy when plain took off and Seats next to me were empty.
However didn’t stay that way.. stroppy teenager marched down aisle and told me that I should move to allow her and her two siblings sit next to one another. I declined to do so.
Next she returns with flight attendant to reason with me.
Why should I, having paid for upgrade, move to a seat in rear of plane, next to restrooms ,so that they could sit together. They had three seats ,separated by an aisle. Maybe they should have asked someone in their row to switch.
Probably some open seats in first class too…
…hell maybe the copilot isn’t in the cockpit, in which case I demand to fly the plane.
@Sang – the dishonest part is the REASON for not letting people move being FAIRNESS to other passengers.
This one is particularly egregious. I would have been furious. I hope you didn’t move.
@Gary I don’t understand why you are so obsessed with FAIRNESS. IMO UA is right. Fairness has to come into the equation. Natural/common law and all that. It simply isn’t fair for person x to pay for something and then give it away to person y for free (aside from elite u/g which I addressed above). While UA’s CoC may not say anything about “FAIRNESS,” I should think a reasonable person can read it out from their pricing scheme.
I agree the Lexus argument is perhaps a bridge too far. Shall we call this Lexus-gate? LOL