Comments

1. Where is Baltimore? Isn’t that a major location for Southwest?

2. This shows that decades of lower business costs in the South does result in more traffic. In contrast, Kansas City / Minneapolis / Milwaukee / Chicago / St. Louis / Cleveland / Cincinnati / Dayton / Pittsburgh / Syracuse have not kept up.

3. Having flown United through IAD, I was suprised to see how small a hub it was, compared to Newark, O’Hare, etc.

4. Quantity is not quality. There is a reason the South has lower business costs. There are fewer opportunities to make money, the populace is uneducated, the summer humidity is oppressive.

   High value customers of Delta are not based in or flying through ATL. They’re based in Manhattan (LGA, JFK) as well as Seattle and LA. Literally the only reason anyone in Manhattan/Seattle/LA might have any desire to travel to the southeast US is to attend a conference or take their kids to Disney at MCO; or to enjoy the warmth and vibes of MIA. Delta already flies nonstop NYC/SEA/LAX to MCO and MIA obviating an ATL connection.

   Bottom line – ATL is for low value losers.

5. Dick and SFO-EWR are literally the same person.

6. The UA numbers for EWR are lower than they’d otherwise be. EWR will have a runway closed for construction through June 15, so UA drew down flights to accommodate the reduced capacity.

   He pulled numbers up for the end of the month and posted them later in the thread. The EWR numbers are much higher.

7. Despite what the dumb Dick thinks, the South dominates in the size of hubs because they realized that air transportation is a huge driver of economies and they left space to build massive hubs.

   Hubs generate a disproportionate benefit to the metros that host them.

   And, as much as Gary or anyone else wants to lump DL at ATL and AA at DFW into the same pot, DL runs fewer flights from ATL at considerably higher average aircraft size which is why ATL is so efficient not just operationally as a hub but also as a profit center for DL.

   DL’s big 4 core hubs are on par w/ AA’s interior US hubs and considerably larger than UA’s hubs. DTW, MSP and SLC are still very efficient hubs even though ATL is so disproportionately large.

   Note also how low the average aircraft size is for AA and UA at ORD; both carriers pump huge amounts of aircraft through that airport using pretty small aircraft. AA says they are focusing on restoring ORD this year – as if UA is going to give back share which it has gained.

   and note also how large is DL’s average number of seats per route while other airlines – esp. UA – spread their networks over many more destinations. DL figured out that the way to become the largest choice is to be the largest provider of services in market after market.

   In contrast, AA thinks they have an advantage by flying to lots of domestic cities which other carriers also serve. DL and UA are both adding back a lot of regional flying this year which means their connectivity of smaller markets will be better relative to AA – reducing AA’s advantage.

   note how many of DL’s hubs are in metros with just one primary airport in the metro area – LAX and NYC are the only two DL hub metros that have multiple competing airports. AA and UA both have numerous hubs in metro areas with multiple airports.

   and airline networks are a combination of connectivity plus local market presence. As much as some want to tout how well their team wins, DL is the largest airline at both NYC and LAX at the largest airports in the #1 and #2 metros plus has the strongest nationwide connecting network. No airline has everything but DL does the best job of nationwide connections plus local markets; AA has to rely on Alaska on the west coast and UA has no presence in the SE which is one of the largest regions of the country, thanks to Florida which is a top destination.

8. I’m a bit surprised not to see BWI for Southwest in this list. Surely they have more seats than Nashville, which strikes me as a smaller operation?

9. That’s nice and all about ATL, but why has Delta not built or even announced plans to build a DeltaOne lounge at its literal headquarters and largest hub?! I get why JFK and LAX have them, but that BOS and SEA would be before ATL is still coo-coo bananas to me.

   @Tim Dunn

   While UA may not have a ‘hub’ in the SE, it still has plenty of ‘presence’ like T1 at FLL, G at MIA, B at MCO, etc. I get that you’d have to go to IAD (Virginia) or IAH (Texas) to even be considered in the ‘South’ for a UA hub. Other than MIA (for AA) and ATL (for DL) there really aren’t any other ‘hubs’ in the SE.

10. Mark,
    first, although there is alot of data in the topic Gary linked, he is talking about number of seats per airport per airline.
    it is not surprising that you are fighting to accept the fact that DL has 15% more flights than UA from all 3 NYC airports (UA obviously doesn’t fly to JFK) while Port Authority data shows that DL and UA on a YTD basis (not next summer but the last 12 months) is carrying just about as many passengers as UA. A higher percentage of DL’s passengers are local NYC passengers because LGA, despite having a perimeter, is still the preferred airport for short-haul (inside perimeter) NYC traffic while JFK is the preferred airport for outside perimeter traffic.
    UA tried to wrap it all into one airport but DL connects more eastern US traffic outside of the NE – including via ATL and DTW – and ATL has more growth potential than any NE airport.

    DL’s strategy of hubbing at 2 NYC airports with 5 effective runways is clearly a better strategy than UA’s of hubbing just at EWR, being the 5th largest carrier at LGA and not serving JFK.

    Port Authority data shows that UA, B6 and AA are shrinking in NYC while DL is growing.

    and across its network, UA still has alot of hubs that have lower average aircraft size than other airlines’ comparable hubs.

    DL is simply a more efficient airline and that is a big part of why their profits are so much higher than every one else.

    and before someone talks about UA’s profits, add about $1.2 billion more/yr in labor costs – which is what it would take for UA to sign new contracts with all of its outstanding labor groups plus profit sharing equivalent to DL – and UA isn’t really as profitable as it appears. They are doing well because of many lower paid employees

11. 1990,
    UA is still about the 6th largest carrier in the state of Florida where there are enormous amounts of airline seats.

    and DL will have D1 lounges in all of its hubs. AA and UA will not want to see that day since DL’s D1 lounges are handedly being rated as some of the best lounges in the US.

12. EWR numbers were updated in the thread as the snapshot week is the end of the runway reconstruction project, which closed one of the two main parallels. UA and others reduced schedules about 10-15%. UA is over 400k peak day seats at EWR too, along with ORD, DEN and IAH.

13. @Tim Dunn

    I definitely agree with you on the Delta One lounges, so far as domestic US lounges go.

    Had the chance to experience each at LAX and JFK, recently. Both are phenomenal. In my opinion, those Delta One lounges surpass United’s Polaris (like in Terminal C at EWR) and AA’s Flagship (like T8 at JFK, either Soho or Chelsea, and at MIA). Even though Delta was a little ‘late to the party’ on this whole premium lounge ‘experience,’ they’ve exceeded my expectations thus far.

    Of course, comparing these to some of what is overseas is a different matter entirely. Still, I think the Delta One lounges compete with anything currently in Doha, Dubai, Singapore, Tokyo, London, etc. I wonder if Delta will eventually open one at CDG or LHR, or will they continue to rely on their partners instead (AF/KL, VS, etc.).

14. @GKK Not to mention Tim readily overlooks that Delta’s average seats/flight count at LGA is 102, the 2nd lowest for any hub in the US (only AA at DCA is lower). Their JFK operation is at 159, so the weighted avg. based on # of departures gives DL an average gauge of 129.

    United’s seats/flight count at EWR is 154, 20% higher than DL’s overall NYC avg.

    If fare and LFs are comparable, then the higher capacity -> more profits and efficiency. Here the avg. capacity is not close and the fare / LF gap between EWR and LGA/JFK is nowhere close to negate a 20% avg. capacity gap.

    All in all, this means it is almost certain that UA is more profitable and efficient in NYC w/ its single airport operation at EWR than DL at LGA/JFK and his claim on the opposite actually goes against the data that we have.

15. jeremy,
    LGA and DCA are both perimeter limited airports which is a good reason why both have such a high percentage of RJs.

    and, no, the combination of LGA and JFK compared to EWR is not valid. The two DL hubs (as for AA) serve different purposes and do it by different means.
    UA tries to accomplish everything in one hub which would make sense if it were any other city – but EWR is simply not capable of supporting a hub the size of LGA plus JFK for DL which is why UA’s size has shrunk. And UA is not shrinking at EWR because of runway construction. They are shrinking because they overscheduled EWR up until June 2023 when they had their operational meltdown. Runway construction doesn’t help but UA will only be able to pump as much traffic through EWR as they did pre-June 2023 if they dramatically upgauge aircraft. And what UA can do at EWR, DL (and AA) can do at LGA and JFK. DL just simply has the capacity to push more flights through NYC than UA does.

    as for profitability, you have no clue now profitable either airline is in NYC and the data is simply not there. You WANT to believe what you want – not what data says.

    EWR is UA’s highest revenue market; that is known. And it is also higher revenue than DL at LGA plus JFK because LGA has so many regional jets. But that says nothing about profitability.

    and it doesn’t matter how profitable EWR is for UA; in total, UA’s hubs are less profitable for DL as a whole. Hub profitability isn’t publicly known for any airline; global region profitability is known and so is system level profitability.

    ATL is undoubtedly the most profitable US airline hub for DL.
    and unlike CLT, ATL still has considerable growth capacity. DL is nearing completion of the concourse D expansion which allows them to put larger aircraft in that concourse.

    AA has lower cost hubs than UA but DL has the lowest cost hubs of the big 3. WN has even lower cost hubs than DL but does not have hubs or whatever WN wants to call them in major coastal airports like the big 3 does.

    and back to your average aircraft size debate. the real outlier is ORD for AA and UA. as a dual airline hub, both limit capacity which makes it less profitable due to smaller gauge. Add in that ORD is being rebuilt at an enormous cost and ORD will become a very inefficient and costly hub unless AA decides to bow out – which they are unlikely to do.

    when you consider that DL has hubs at DTW and MSP which combined carry more traffic than AA or UA at ORD and do it more efficiently (larger aircraft size) and lower airport costs, DL not only has the advantage on the east coast but also in the Midwest.

16. @1990 and @Tim Dunn – The reason ATL doesn’t have D1 Lounges is that DL takes the ATL passengers for granted. We are captives. We are over charged. DL controls somewhere between 75% to 80% of the traffic in ATL. There is no effective competition, so they don’t have to do anything to keep customers or gain customers. In BOS, JFK, and LAX DL wants to get more business, so they offer things to attract customers. (Similar argument for DTW and MSP.). Atlanta customers were much better served when DL had Eastern and AirTran as competitors here in ATL. It’s a sad state of affairs in ATL, and I would like to see DL’s effective monopoly broken up. But I know that’s not going to happen.

17. @Tim I never mentioned or talked about the non-NYC hubs that you just went off about. It’s obvious DL does great at ATL and its other fortress hubs, but that’s a different topic.

    The discussion is about NYC. LGA being perimeter-limited (unlike EWR) is extremely relevant when discussing NYC and is a big reason why EWR is a better overall operation. As LGA slots are well-distributed, there’s a ton of slot-squatting, and only so many routes airlines find they can operate at LGA profitably – AA and B6 struggled with this recently as the premium fare is not sufficient for the lower gauge. DL does better than AA and B6, but it also partakes in this.

    And yes, we cannot get exact financials, but it’s obvious to read in between the lines – the runway construction has a major impact on UA capacity (in the thread you posted United’s capacity at EWR increases by 10% a few weeks later to around the same level as DL across LGA/JFK). DL cannot unilaterally increase its gauge at JFK / LGA just b/c it feels like it unless it wants to take major losses – AA and B6 have similar gauges at JFK and increasing at LGA would require shifting regional destinations to mainline which given the data we have seen from Enilria and others would be a fool’s endeavor.

    JFK / LGA vs EWR may serve different purposes, but again it is HIGHLY LIKELY based on all the data that we have publicly available that UA is the most profitable airline out of NYC overall unless you want to claim a heavy regional domestic operation + long haul at JFK > a well-balanced hub at EWR (which LOL). DL and UA have to make lemonade with the lemons they have in hand, but it was you who claimed that DL’s operation at 2 different NYC airports > UA. There’s literally nothing showing that to be the case and we have reason to suspect the opposite.

18. you mean, you want to WRITE between the lines because you want to create a narrative that does not exist.

    You simply do not know hub profitability and neither does any one else.

    We can talk about capacity and what is actually flown. Let’s see if UA retakes its lead but as of right now, DL and UA are both pushing almost identical numbers of passengers through NYC.

    We are so supposed to believe that UA can upgauge and not trash its yields but DL cannot? hogwash. If UA was serious about upgauging, they wouldn’t be scheduling hourly CRJ550s from DCA to EWR.

    Let’s let the data speak for itself. Not what you or I wish but what it says.

    And NYC is still a hub for both DL and UA. It really doesn’t matter how big either is in NYC if NYC is part of a global route network.

    UA’s 3 mid-continent hubs are smaller than the sum of ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC for DL. DL simply has a stronger connecting network while UA’s coastal hubs in total are larger. and yet when you add up DL’s total east coast plus west coast network, DL is about as large as UA because of DL’s point to point network including to/from Florida as well as its RDU focus city.

    UA flies more ASMs to more places but earns less revenue and profit than DL. that is a fact. You can spin all the facts anyway you want but that is the reality.

    DL is simply more efficient operationally and financially which is why it earns a higher profit even though it pays its people more than UA does.

19. You act like this is a good thing. This is precisely why I avoid ATL and DFW whenever I can.

20. Gary’s article was an interesting read for sure, although @Tim Dunn’s analysis in the comments was actually more insightful. @Tim Dunn is an easy target when he gets over his skis on his adoration of Delta, but clearly he knows a great deal about the commercial aviation business.

21. Texas TJ,
    I understand the industry and can admit who is ahead and who is #2 and #3.
    Some people have their self-esteems wrapped up in their “team’s” success.

    No company is at the top of everything. Being able to admit what each player is best at and who is not as good is part of life.

    In terms of financial results, DL is still at the top of the heap. Everything else is just someone(s)’ interpretation of how to get there… sometimes they are right and sometimes they are not.

22. Tim, DL needing two NYC airports and 15% more flights to have approximately the same number of seats as UA in EWR shows how inefficient their NYC hub is. Not to mention that one of their two NYC hubs is hamstrung by a perimeter rule that limits where they can fly.

    It also shows why UA is able to capture significant levels of the local market while also feeding connections around the region, country, and world.

    There’s a reason UA’s hub in EWR is the largest in the northeast and the envy of the industry.

23. Tim, I forgot to mention, as Brett Snyder called out on his respected blog, I will not be sucked into an argument loop with you.

24. @ Dick — Get a clue. ATL has a highly eductaed workforce and tons of high-paying jobs. It is a far better place to live than the s***holes of SFO and NYC. You sound like the one who is a low-value loser.

25. I have to admit Tim’s knowledge of the industry is impressive (really), but I hope he isn’t neglecting his high school homework.

26. @JohnnyD is spot on. There’s a mistake. BWI should be at #19 with 258,952

27. Mark,
    you are free to run and hide because your arguments no longer work.

    It is clear that your self-esteem is wrapped up in UA being first and the fact that you show up on. EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD. to tell us how great UA is provides all the proof we need that you can’t stand to admit that UA really does come in the #2 and #3 position in a whole lot of things.

    No one denies what CO built and UA has expanded at EWR.

    But UA does not fly to all 3 NYC airports. DL, along with AA and B6, do.

    All 3 airports serve particular functions. UA under Smisek put all of UA’s eggs into one basket and everyone including Kirby knows that was a bad decision.

    No one doubts that UA can put more seats per flight through EWR and create a single connecting hub – but that is not how DL uses its NYC hubs.

    LGA and JFK are just TWO of DL’s east coast hubs – the other two being BOS and ATL, the former being the fastest growing legacy carrier hub.

    ATL, as Gary notes, is the largest US carrier hub for DL and, by flights and seats, the largest in the world.

    UA spreads its mid-continent hubs over ORD, DEN and IAH and DL’s ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC are still 35% larger.

    As hard as it is for you to admit, UA is #3 among 3 network carriers in non-coastal hubs.

    But it is #1 with its coastal hubs. You simply refuse to discuss anything that is not #1.

    and yet DL has 15% more flights from EWR, JFK and LGA combined and that is not going to change – EWR plus UA at LGA can’t amount to that much capacity.

    and in the total hub picture, DL carries more passengers and generates more total revenue in part because of DL’s Amex relationship which is multiples times larger than UA’s credit card program.
    DL has exclusive MRO contracts that UA will never match.

    Even if UA duplicates what DL has in network, it will never duplicate DL’s non-transportation revenue which delivers far more revenue and profits than UA.

    the people that talk about my adoration with DL have it all wrong. It is people like you that are incapable of admitting that UA isn’t first in many things.
    most of all, UA is not first in profits which is why they, along with AA and UA, exist.

28. @Tim Dunn again it’s very ironic how you’re acting holier than thou. You’ve made multiple quotes in this thread that are not supported by any data and some that are contradicted by it.

    Let’s start with: “DL’s strategy of hubbing at 2 NYC airports with 5 effective runways is clearly a better strategy than UA’s of hubbing just at EWR, being the 5th largest carrier at LGA and not serving JFK.” Based on… what? You can’t even show that DL is more efficient or profitable than UA in NYC when presented with gauge data, so you’re wishcasting and having to bring in BOS and ATL.

    You keep repeating that DL is 15% larger in NYC at JFK and LGA than UA at EWR. The poster who sourced this data has mentioned this is FALSE. UA and DL had about the same capacity in NYC in 2024. The poster who provided all of the data pulled UA’s numbers for June 25-July 1 post runway construction. UA’s capacity is 418k that week vs DL’s 420k at LGA/JFK i.e., the same.

    You claimed “EWR is simply not capable of supporting a hub the size of LGA plus JFK for DL which is why UA’s size has shrunk. And UA is not shrinking at EWR because of runway construction. They are shrinking because they overscheduled EWR up until June 2023 when they had their operational meltdown. Runway construction doesn’t help but UA will only be able to pump as much traffic through EWR as they did pre-June 2023 if they dramatically upgauge aircraft.”

    As mentioned above, this is FALSE. How on earth does United’s capacity go up 15% 2 weeks later if the EWR runway construction is not driving it to shrink? How is the capacity later in the summer the same for UA at EWR as DL at LGA + JFK. Is United apparently dramatically upgauging aircraft between June 14 and June 29, the only way they can pump as much traffic as per you?

    Stick to the data instead of cheerleading.

29. @Tim Dunn

    Nevermind the haters. There’s nothing wrong with being fanatical about aviation and travel industry factoids. Respect.

    The NYC-area airports really are fascinating, especially since it is truly the most crowded airspace and also the most competitive and diversified commercial air travel market anywhere in the United States and maybe the world.

    Each of the ‘big three’ US domestic airlines and JetBlue have hub-like operations, and also there are international carriers from nearly every continent, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, and even Air New Zealand and Qantas, too.

    Of course, for that, you’d have to consider Newark part of this region, which it sort of is (connected by the PATH/NJ Transit, and Jersey City is like a 6th borough nowadays anyway)—still, I find it hilarious how United is so quick to promote that flights to EWR are to ‘Nu Yawk-freakin-Citaay!! (whisper: also Newark).’ After all, if the Holland Tunnel isn’t closed, it’s often quicker to get into Manhattan via EWR than JFK.

    Speaking of, do you recall United’s brief JFK-SFO route in 2021-2022 out of T7? That one was doomed to fail because of the pandemic. But before the pandemic UA also flew JFK-LAX if I recall correctly. So, yeah, they’re not there currently, and I doubt they’ll try that again anytime soon. Besides T7 is so old and only has Alaska and Horizons lounges. Meh. The Port Authority cannot finish the JFK renovations soon enough!

30. “ Some people have their self-esteems wrapped up in their “team’s” success.”

    Oh “tim”, you’re so obtuse and dumb.
    You’re the guy fired by delta. This statement by you sums you up succinctly

31. @Dick – you sound like un-educated, not well-informed snow-plowing moron from up north.
    Stay there, please – we don’t need losers like you here. We’ll enjoy our space, weather and nature.

    BTW, dummy – we do have A/C everywhere. I’m sure it’s hard to believe, still living in a 70 yo split-level with A/C in windows…

32. Would be fascinating to see how this ranking would shift if the metric was ASMs instead of seats. It would definitely boost EWR, JFK, SFO, LAX, IAH, and MIA.

33. jeremy,
    you use “capacity” and number of flights interchangeably WRT NYC because you cannot accept that UA is NOT #1 in every metric.

    UA can and likely will re-add capacity to EWR. It will not ever be the largest airline in NYC by the number of flights at all 3 airports because they cannot add dozens of additional flights/day to EWR; the 2 runway airport cannot support it.

    LGA is a perimeter- restricted airport which necessitates using a high percentage of RJs, just as is the case at DCA.
    The real case about small average aircraft size is UA and AA at ORD and UA at IAD- but you don’t want to talk about that.

    DL has 4 eastern US airports including ATL and the four of them do a better job of serving destinations along the eastern seaboard and across the Atlantic better than any other airlines’ combination of hubs.

    UA has nothing in comparison. AA comes in a close second but their market position has not allowed them to take advantage of the opportunities their hub locations should provide for Europe and beyond.

    UA has the best coastal hubs but it is precisely because of DL’s growth at NYC, BOS, LAX and SEA over the past five years that UA is desperately trying to duplicate what DL has done in the interior US – but UA is simply not going to match w/ ORD, IAH and DEN what DL does with ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC. Meanwhile DL is growing its coastal presence and will succeed at challenging what UA does best than the other way around. Those are simply facts which you struggle to accept.

34. I find the debate about the NYC airports odd.

    From a customer standpoint – either Newark works better for you, or the LGA/JFK combination works better, largely a function of where you live.

    If JFK and LGA were combined into one airport somewhere on Long Island, maybe Delta and AA would be as “efficient” as Newark, but that’s not the case, so why bother speculating

    Delta has done a great job investing in the route network and ground experience at both LGA and JFK, which has been a clear benefit to passengers. Investment continues. If they are less “profitable” or “efficient” than United at Newark, it’s not having a negative impact on the customer…

    If only JetBlue (lounges at JFK) and AA could similarly invest across both airports (though AA seems to be improving a bit)

35. @Tim Dunn this is why we’re going to go in circles b/c you’re back to cheerleading. Please stick to the data and not false dreams.

    DL planned capacity growth in 2025 by hub:

    – ATL: 113k (107k domestic)
    – DTW: 29k (25k domestic)
    – MSP: 16k (13k domestic)
    – LAX: 16k (17k domestic – 1k reduction in international)
    – BOS: 13k (10.5k domestic)
    – LGA: 11k (all domestic)
    – SLC: 10.5k (8.5k domestic)
    – JFK: 9.5k (8k domestic)
    – SEA: 8 (7.5k domestic)

    75% of DL’s planned growth in 2025 is its interior hubs (w/ 50% of it ATL). SEA has been DL’s lowest growth hub since 2020 – it’s ~40% of the capacity and # of flight as Alaska which has been stable. LAX, LGA, and JFK have gate constraints, and while BOS has grown, it’s not a high growth hub.

    Compare that to UA’s planned capacity growth by hub in 2025:

    – SFO: 64k (57k domestic)
    – ORD: 46k (43k domestic)
    – IAD: 38k (34k domestic)
    – DEN: 36k (33k domestic)
    – IAH: 23k (11k domestic)
    – LAX: 9.5k (6k domestic)
    – ERW: -16k (-13.5k domestic) – this is entirely due to runway reconstruction. If you move it 2 weeks later this does not hold as EWR goes to +25k.

    Also funnily enough AA’s growth in NYC btw – LGA: 15k (all domestic) and JFK: 4k (2.5k domestic) is almost equal to DL’s growth at both in 2025.

    So the gap is growing in UA vs DL in coastal regions as UA grows 2x faster – DL is adding 57k in its coastal hubs while even with the deflated UA numbers at EWR above, UA is adding 95k (actually ~120k). DL is widening the gap in interior hubs, but that is entirely due to ATL. In the Midwest UA’s ORD is adding as much capacity as DL at MSP and DTW. DEN is adding 3x more capacity than SLC.

    “Meanwhile DL is growing its coastal presence and will succeed at challenging what UA does best than the other way around. Those are simply facts which you struggle to accept.” is simply not a fact or true – the data suggests ATL is the golden goose that will continue to outperform for Delta as it outperforms in the South where UA is very weak. Everywhere else we see more UA growth (Midwest, Mountain, West Coast) especially on the West Coast where it is growing 3x faster than Delta and continuing to widen the gap.

36. @Tim

    ‘the people that talk about my adoration with DL have it all wrong’

    Nothing wrong about that. Unrequited crushes are not uncommon at Tim’s age.

37. jon,
    all you prove is that people like you can’t discuss the topic so attack the user.

    jeremy,
    you are so all over the board with trying to throw out statistics that you can’t even remember what the discussion is about – or what there is even agreeement or debate about.

    1. ATL is unquestionably the largest US hub and as much as some might try to lump DFW into the mix, ATL is simply in another league from DFW in large part because DL uses so many more mainline aircraft at ATL than AA does at DFW.
    2. ATL is by far not just the largest but also most globally and nationally balanced hub in the US. ATL is not just a southern or SE or even east coast hub. DL at ATL is the largest domestic hub, the 2nd largest hub in the US by ASMs to Latin America – behind AA at MIA – the largest US carrier gateway to E. Asia outside of California and the 3rd largest gateway to Europe – behind UA at EWR and DL at JFK. No other hub in the US comes close to being as relevant in every global region as DL’s ATL hub is.

    3. Nobody has doubted that UA is growing – that is what they set out to do as part of Kirby’s plan to grow UA’s domestic share. But UA domestically is still so far behind AA, DL and WN in the domestic market that UA will still be a 4th place domestic airline for years to come even if they double the rate of growth they are PUBLISHING.
    4. UA’s mid-continent hubs ORD, IAH and DEN combined are only about 2/3 the size of AA and DL’s interior US hubs combined and even smaller relative to WN in the same regions.

    5. Nobody has doubted that UA is the largest in its coastal hubs than any of the big 4. What you can’t accept is that DL’s rate of growth in the coastal markets HAS BEEN far faster over the past 5 years than UA has been in shrinking the gap in the domestic market.

    as much as you want to talk about how much UA is growing, the industry is dynamic and what is actually flown, not what is published, is what matters.

    and specific to NYC, you still have yet to acknowledge that DL HAS MATCHED UA’s size in NYC in passengers carried. Feel free to let us know what DL does but it is far from clear where they will land. They are replacing 767s with larger A330s at JFK and continue to upgauge flights – which is why the number of seats is growing even thought their flight count is largely stable bcause of slots.

    And LGA and JFK are under slot reduction restrictions which means that could grow at LGA and JFK just as fast if not faster in absolute amounts than UA does at EWR.

    As hard as it is for you to accept, DL is simply larger in terms of number of flights, has more runways to support its hubs and has effectively closed the size advantage that UA had even if UA is still more international and generates higher revenue in NYC.

    Why you struggle so hard to accept actual facts – good, bad and ugly about what UA and every other airline is, I don’t know.

    But the sooner you realize the industry is highly competitive and it is highly unlikely that any one carrier will clean everyone else’s clock, the more rational these discussions will be.

38. I’m curious what the big 3 will look like after the inflation/recession that we appear to be entering. It was reported on the news this morning that Americans are cutting back on spending, and we all know during a recession, travel isn’t at the top of the spending list. That, along with some other countries telling their citizens to avoid visiting the US, it doesn’t sound good for these companies.

39. It’s interesting that all of this data was posted on airliners.net last week, and now it is showing up verbatim on here.

40. Rob,
    all of the US big 3 are publicly traded companies and they are not seeing what you are saying is occurring. If they did, there would be a problem but it simply doesn’t exist.

    there is data that US consumers are spending more and more and using their credit cards for international air travel and buy nicer and nicer experiences.

    there is a big difference btween the generalizations you hear and the realities that actually take place with specific companies.

41. @Scott Shinbaum – interesting? I literally link to the source at the top of the piece

42. A few decades ago UA dominated Seattle. At least one of its predecessors (Boeing Air Transport) got its start there.

    Now, Seattle is definitely an out city for UA. They used to use gates A9-A14; now cut back to A11-A14. Flights out of here go only to the UA hubs: SFO (five or six), L:AX (two), DEN, ORD, EWR, IAD (only one or two a day). Makes things difficult for us who are still in the UA ecosystem (I lived in SFO then IAD most of my life).

43. carleton,
    for all the bravado the UA fan club has about how superior their route system is, it is worth noting that the biggest losers in DL’s buildup of SEA as a hub were UA and WN.
    DL managed to build both BOS and SEA by displacing two carriers that had lower costs than DL’s and also grew at LAX at AA’s expense.

    UA fans love to talk about the competition that UA has in its hubs – in contrast to ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC – while ignoring that UA has well over 50% of the local market in EWR, SFO and IAD and the first two are larger markets than DTW, MSP or SLC.
    UA has its monopoly hubs – or DL doesn’t.

    UA hasn’t displaced anyone to build new hubs while that is exactly what DL has done. in SEA, it was DL that displaced UA. and UA is slated to move from the A concourse for DL’s benefit in the not-too-distant future.

44. @ Gary Leff Yes the link was clear to 99% of your readers. @Scott Shinbaum was having a JoeBIden moment.

45. If anyone has questions about the data, I am the one who compiled all of it that was used in this piece.

46. @LAXdude1023 That sounds like a thankless job, but we here are glad you did it. Cheers!

47. Very cool @LAXdude1023 (thanks!) – would love to see a comparative ranking with ASMs instead of seats if you’re down.