Comments

1. “Clean. You. Planes.” I always like when Gary ‘says it like it is.’ Also, let’s properly hire, train, pay, and support those that are duty-bound to do so!

2. I believe the contract is written such that 4B is to be the last seat “sold” on the flight, which is generally interpreted to preclude an upgrade into the seat, but ultimately it’s at the Captain’s discretion.

   The worst case scenario looks like this… J is booked to 14/15, in a 16-seat cabin with 4A blocked for crew rest and 4B airport assignment as the “last seat sold.” Seat #15 never sells, and there is an upgrade waitlist. GA clears the upgrade, but Captain intervenes to block the upgrade. Then an SA can occupy the seat at the discretion of the Captain.

   One wonders if the SA cleared into 4B knew anyone on the crew… if all is as written, kind of a BS move by the Captain, but the contract is somewhat ambiguous

3. That’s bullshit that the pilot not only gets the first class seat but suddenly gets the swoons about sitting next to – Le Gasp – a passenger. If the pilot is sitting in the passenger seats, what two pilots are flying the plane?

4. The United business class pilot rule is the product of not having direct aisle access. Pilots should not have to climb over someone and shouldn’t have the possibility of passengers climbing over them.
   The problem is UA’s dated 757 business class product.

5. @TimDunn
   I’m sure that Delta’s 757 business class product is spectacularly better

6. @Carl — I’ll back you up. Sorry, @Tim Dunn, but the DeltaOne and Polaris 757s with lie-flat in 2-2 are all dated, in terms of ‘hard’ product, so a ‘point’ to Carl. However, in terms of ‘soft’ product, flight attendants, food, etc., it’s always Delta, for me, so a ‘point’ to Tim. Keep Climbing!

7. Delta does not use 757s on flights over 8 hours so there is no crew rest requirement or seat.

   DL is reconfiguring the ex-TW 757s which are the 757s with lie flat to standard DL domestic configurations.

   DL, like AA and UA, has A321NEOs on order that will have a suite-type product with direct aisle access but DL, unlike AA, B6 and UA, will not use any narrowbodies on flights over 8 hours. DL does not believe US airline labor costs work with a premium configured narrowbody the size of the 321NEO.

8. Thanks for exposing this. I would have asked any paying passenger in a nearby seat if they would swap seats for an on the spot thank you payment via Apple Cash.

9. Re: Christian. It’s likely a dead-heading pilot in uniform, on to his or her next assignment.

10. @Tim Dunn — Woah there, partner! That’s news, son! Delta getting a321neos with 1-1 lie-flat suites, like jetBlue’s transatlantic, and AA’s new product?! If so, that’s actually yuuuge! Any ETA on that? 2026??

11. 1990
    actually, DL is awaiting certification of the transcon D1 suite and some of the aircraft are sitting in the desert in CA. It has allowed DL to take delivery of the aircraft and remove the engines to support the regular domestic 321NEO fleet since the Pratt Geared Turbofan engines are having to be rebuilt.

    There are a couple more 321NEOs that Airbus is holding in Europe; the tariff issue is also involved so not sure how it all fits together.

    I am hearing that the seat certification might happen this fall and the aircraft could enter service late this year or early next year.

    widebodies will remain on JFK-LAX and partially on JFK-SFO but most other D1 transcon routes will get the new 321NEO transcons and some other routes might gain it.

12. The UA 757 1st/Business seats are very similar to Delta’s whose one version with lie flat seats also don’t have direct aisle access. Nice try though.

    https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Delta_Airlines/Delta_Airlines_Boeing_757-200_75S.php

13. Dave,
    the issue is crew rest, not deadheading pilots.
    UA uses 757s on flights over 8 hours so they must have 3 pilots and the 3 pilots rotate rest. Happens on widebodies but it doesn’t affect customers because there may be a seat blocked but just about all US airlines have direct aisle business class.

    AA got rid of its 757s and so it isn’t an issue for them while DL still operates the world’s largest 757 passenger fleet but just doesn’t use narrowbodies – now or in the future based on currently available aircraft – on flights longer than 8 hours. AA and UA are the exception among the largest global airlines regarding longhaul narrowbody plans.

14. @Tim Dunn — That’s awesome! Can’t wait for those new cabins!

    @JL — You’re conflating existing cabins with the new ones that Tim’s referring to. Yes, as I said above, currently, both airlines’ 757s with the lie-flat are 2-2. These new ones for DL at least should be 1-1, similar to B6 existing transatlantic a321s and AA’s new a321neo plans. All-around, these new cabins are an improvement for the hard product in premium travel for US carriers.

15. @Tim Dunn — That begs the question: When is United planning on new premium cabins for single its narrow-bodies? Starting to see their new a321s come on line, but it’s just recliner, not lie-flat. Seems like a missed opportunity, unless something better is also in the works.

16. United does have “something better,” actually best in class, in the works for many of the over 250 new A321 Neo’s and A321 XLR’s they will fly. United’s current fleet includes 1,037 mainline aircraft with another 700 on order. Sorry to hear Delta is having such planning problems that parking planes and scavenging engines is required on brand new aircraft. Yikes!

17. @JL — So, for those new United aircraft, are any lie-flat narrow-bodies, or just recliners? Again, ‘first world’ problems here, but I am curious, as a frequent flyer who seeks out premium seats, because if UA (and DL) phase out their 757s with the lie-flat, UA really should follow B6, AA, (and supposedly DL’s) lead to incorporate lie-flat, especially for transcon and/or low density transatlantic (even medium-range, like some of Latin America can be 6+ hours, think BOG, LIM, etc.)

18. @Dave – That’s even worse. So a deadheading pilot can kick someone out of not only their seat in the passenger cabin but the adjacent seat as well?

19. It’s not a ‘deadheading’ pilot, but a pilot who is taking a rest break on an augmented long-haul flight.

20. JL,

    You clearly can’t grasp that DL does not fly its 757s over 8 hours so crew rest is not an issue. The product is similar on flights less than 8 hours but that is a separate issue.

    since precisely NONE Of AA, DL, or UA’s premium configured A321NEOs are in service, it is more than a tad premature to argue that anyone of their products is better.

    ALL will have lie flat suites with direct aisle access.

    and since you want to argue, DL has received more new WIDEBODIES than any other US airline in 2024 and will do so again in 2025. On top of that, DL is nearing the end of the conversion of its ex-Latam A350s to a 40 seat D1 suite configuration which will mean that all DL widebodies will have direct aisle access which is also true with AA’s business class.

    The difference is that DL will reach 80 widebody aircraft with Suites in business class by the end of this year while AA already has 787s in service that have it and UA has precisely NONE.

    AA has also announced plans to reconfigure its 777W fleet to a suite product while UA has not.

    UA will be last among US airlines for years in the number of aircraft w/ suites for years to come.

    UA not only still has the 757s in service – for which they have not announced a retirement date but also has the 777As which do not have direct aisle business class and also has announced no plans to retire its 767s which AA has already done and DL is doing.
    There will be no suite product on any 767.

    it doesn’t matter how many planes UA has on order; it matters how many airplanes an airline receives and how many older aircraft airlines retire.
    UA operates the oldest, least up to date widebody fleet among US airlines and will likely stay that way until at least 2030

    wouldn’t it have been a whole lot easier just to acknowledge that UA has a bizarre pilot rest issue because UA uses 757s which do not have direct aisle access on 8+ hour flights?

21. Well said, @Tim Dunn!

    Since we’re griping about United, I’ll just say between DL’s RUCs and GUCs, AA’s systemwide upgrades, and UA’s PlusPoints, Delta is the clear winner, with actual confirmed space available in many circumstances, then followed by AA’s SWUs, and finally UA’s PPs which are practically worthless, nearly always dying on a waitlist with them, even as a 1K. I’ve practically given up on status with UA, reduced AA, and have been all-in on DL, and it’s actually paid off. Even on complimentary upgrades, DL’s been 50/50 as a Diamond. Was less so with AA as an EXP and UA as a 1K. I know, all anecdotal, but still, it matters to us passengers.

22. UA has 50 more wide body airliners than DAL and all have the Polaris suits except for the 23 domestic 772s. UA is the biggest transatlantic carrier and bigger than AA & DAL combined over the Pacific. UA has 188 wide body aircraft on order compared to DAL’s 29 and get in that long line for new aircraft with that massive backlogs at Boeing and Airbus. UA’s fleet average age is less than a year older than DAL’s and getting younger every day with all the new aircraft arriving. Heck United already has 50 mainline aircraft than DAL. Nice try though.

23. JL,
    save your incessant bragging about UA for another day and another topic.

    The simple reality is that UA is the ONLY US airline that operates flights over 8 hours on narrowbody aircraft that do not have direct aisle access.
    and THAT is why this is an issue.

    and UA is NOT retiring widebody aircraft so far and their fleet age is not going down even as they take new 787s.

    and AA and DL both generate more domestic revenue than UA. For some perverse reason some of you UA shills think that serving a bunch of foreign cities including with less than daily summer seasonal narrowbody service is better than having a decent domestic network but the reality is that UA’s strategy is DIFFERENT but it IS NOT BETTER in any measure.

    and if you want to play “look how big my tool is” DL will soon be flying the A350-1000 on routes further than anything UA (or AA) can fly and at far lower costs per passenger mile.

    and, in case you missed it because it doesn’t fit your narrative, there are a whole lot of UA employees that are losing interest in the incessant rah-rah nonsense that has been forced on them; they understand that Scott Kirby and co. want to distract UA’s unionized non-pilot employees from the fact that those groups are underpaid and UA has no intention of paying them the industry leading wages and benefits that Kirby loves to talk about.

24. Tim Dunn should buy a mirror. I am simply correcting the myriad of misrepresentations you make. I am sorry the data doesn’t support your perceptions. United uses 757s to near European markets that would otherwise go unserved. The A321 XLRs with luxurious new suites will start arriving next year to replace the 40 757s.

25. JL
    you need simply admit that this is an issue solely because UA is the only US airline that uses a narrowbody aircraft w/o direct aisle access in business class on 8+ hour flights that required a 3rd crew member.

    This is not an issue for any other US airline and you seem unable to admit that reality.

    When UA removes all of its 757s from 8+ hour flights, then you can get back w/ us if we are still talking about UA’s rule which gives discretion to its pilots whether the seat next to a crew rest seat should be occupied or not.

    It wouldn’t be an issue if UA simply made the rule that all flights with a 3rd crew member -whether the actual flight is over 8 hours or not – cannot sell all 16 seats.

    and UA still has the oldest widebody fleet among US airlines and it won’t fall more than AA or DL until UA starts retiring widebodies IN ADDITION to taking delivery of new widebodies, something is doing more often than UA is.

26. Fleet Size/WBs/Orders/Average Age
    UAL…1,038/227/689/15.6
    AAL……992/130/310/14.1
    DAL……988/176/275/14.9

27. Was the pax seated with a boarding pass in hand? Yes? Then the pilot can go to hell. I’d let them cancel the flight first before voluntarily moving from my assigned seat.

28. JL,
    you chose to jump into a conversation and throw in a bunch of stuff that is irrelevant to the fact that UA, and UA ALONE, is the only US airline where this could be an issue because UA ALONE uses narrowbody aircraft w/o direct aisle seats on 8+ hour flights where a 3rd pilot and a crew rest seat is required.

    We could care less how big UA’s international system or fleet is.

    DO let us know when UA gets rid of its last 757 on flights over 8 plus hours – because that is what matters.

    thank you, though, for confirming that UA has the oldest fleet among US airlines.

29. Is @JL the new @MaxPower? I’m seeing doubles here!

30. Tim Dunn says: “We could care less…”

    Who is “We”?

31. Here is a funny one for you all. AA in general, only has two classes of cabin on domestic flights. There is the rare widebody but other than that, the lonely 3 class cabin of their A321Ts that cross from coast to coast is the exception. I have predictably flown “non-rev” FC on those planes because of a glitch in the AA system. Paying passengers can only upgrade to one premium cabin per flight but you also cannot double jump. In short, you can upgrade to business from Economy but not first. The system does not allow a double jump so if you didn’t pay for the expensive business class ticket up front, you cannot upgrade to the ridiculously expensive FC. Now that they post the non-rev assignments and upgrade assignments on the boards, witness for yourself. Have even seen this oversell in coach and they left people behind while I flew for free up front. Even the FAs get pissed that this is a thing, 1/2 their flights up front are non-revs.

32. nobody here, JL, cares about your attempts to deflect from this policy which 1. shouldn’t even be in the hands of the pilots because it should be simply “if there is a 3 person cockpit crew, two seats must remain empty” and 2. it is only an issue because UA is the only US airline that flies a narrowbody that does not have direct aisle seats on 8+ hour flights.

    and, yes, 1990, some people argue incessantly while refusing to deal w/ the root issue. This chap and max have that in common at the very least.

33. nobody here, cares about your attempts to deflect from this policy which 1. shouldn’t even be in the hands of the pilots because it should be simply “if there is a 3 person cockpit crew, two seats must remain empty” and 2. it is only an issue because UA is the only US airline that flies a narrowbody that does not have direct aisle seats on 8+ hour flights.
    and, yes, 1990, some people argue incessantly while refusing to deal w/ the root issue.

34. @JL — I’m not sure, but I do enjoy the robust engagement going on here. Please do come back now, ya hear!

35. 1990
    No one asked about fleet size or age

    We do have fun here now, don’t we?

36. 1990 says: “I’m not sure, but I do enjoy the robust engagement going on here. Please do come back now, ya hear!”

    TD apparently thinks he speaks for you and everyone here so no need to chime in. 🙂 That’s almost as amazing as him pretending to be an airline analyst. TD is incredible, literally.

37. @Tim Dunn — Good fun, all-around.

    @JL — Oh, don’t worry, Tim and I differ on some things, such as unions. I’m a fan. I believe he still thinks the flight attendants, baggage handlers, etc., should not join Delta’s pilots, who have organized since the 1930s! While I appreciate that the crews at DAL get record pay and profit sharing, I still think they would benefit additionally by organizing (it’s not just about profits, it’s also improving conditions and protecting other rights, easily as a group with support than individually).

    Anyway. I think we’re all passionate, ultimately, because we care (about the industry, travel, etc.)

38. 1990 says: “Tim and I differ on some things, such as unions. I’m a fan. I believe he still thinks the flight attendants, baggage handlers, etc., should not join Delta’s pilots, who have organized since the 1930s! While I appreciate that the crews at DAL get record pay and profit sharing, I still think they would benefit additionally by organizing (it’s not just about profits, it’s also improving conditions and protecting other rights, easily as a group with support than individually).”

    I agree and they should also join unions because unions are why they make what they make as unions set the going rate. Delta management pays them what it takes to keep them from voting in unions.

39. @JL — Do you often re-quote everything others say? I’ll give it a try… get that word-count up!

    JL says: “I agree and they should also join unions because unions are why they make what they make as unions set the going rate. Delta management pays them what it takes to keep them from voting in unions.”

    And I say: I agree with @JL’s agreeing with me, and also agree with his sentiments that Delta has to pay more to prevent further unionization, though, the FAs and others can and should still organize, anyway. Bah!

    @Tim Dunn — Where’d you go? Come back to the party! The water’s warm! Jump in!