Southwest just ordered over 100 Boeing 737 MAX 7s, the smaller variant of the MAX which isn’t yet certified. American Airlines is looking at a big order for these planes as well, though it is not likely to come right away.
In July I was first to report that American is considering a narrowbody order. CEO Robert Isom told employees in July, “We’re going to need aircraft, and I wouldn’t be surprised if at some point we make a commitment to some narrowbody aircraft as we get past 2027.”
Now there’s confirmation from internal leaks that American is indeed looking at a narrowbody order and of the specific aircraft under consideration. The airline needs a plan to replace their oldest Airbus A319s and A320s, as well as their oldest Boeing 737-800s.
AA: some upcoming narrowbody order musings:
-319 replacement. The 319neo isn't really an option because Airbus charges the same as a 321neo since it takes the same space on the production line.
-They're comparing it to the MAX7, 220, and E2 195
These are musings.— JonNYC (@xJonNYC) October 26, 2023
American is considering:
- Boeing 737 MAX 7
- Airbus A22-
- Embraer E195 E2
American Airlines Boeing 737 MAX Interior
The Boeing 737 MAX 7 seems like the obvious choice, though I wouldn’t be surprised to see a mixed order of some kind. Boeing will be very motivated to move this aircraft, given their broader struggles and that this program hasn’t been certified yet. It also wouldn’t complicate their fleet as much as alternatives.
It ls likely too expensive and availability too scarce to acquire more Airbus A320 family aircraft. The backlog there is great with strong overall demand, though American did tell employees over the summer that they are not concerned with the backed up order books of the major planemakers.
With all of the orders that other airlines have placed, there’s much discussion that there’s just no room in delivery schedules at this point for airlines to buy more planes and that when an airline like United has placed massive orders of both narrowbody and widebody planes they’ve also blocked other carriers from acquiring new jets.
But American’s position is that they’ll make room for their orders because they’re the world’s largest airline and in a position to take delivery and pay for the planes unlike some new smaller players.
An order for Boeing MAX 7 and MAX 8 (or MAX 10!) planes likely offers the best price, delivery slots, and fleet commonality along with good operating costs. I would be very surprised to see them order E2s or 220s, but of course they will shop ’em and use them as a stalking horse in negotiations.
For years American has promoted that they had ‘already renewed their fleet’ and thus will have low capital costs for years. However they’re taking new aircraft over the next several years, such as Airbus A321XLRs and Boeing 787s. And they do appear to be looking at another major order, likely to increase the debt perhaps back to levels they’re trying to pay down from coming out of the pandemic.
The current 737 Max 8 on order should be a sufficient replacement to replace the aging a320.
Americans really should try to wait till 2026 at the earliest to take delivery of new aircraft beyond what they have on order. They have to focus on increasing cash on their balance sheet. Their business is very large domestically though they are practically a not-for-profit business.
It doesn’t take Jon NYC or any secret internAAl docs to know that AA is talking w/ A and B about aircraft order because AAL execs have said it on company earnings calls which are public info.
AA probably will choose the wrong 737MAX and cram them tighter than every other airline on the same model; that is exactly what they did with the 737-800 and MAX8.
They should order the MAX 9 and offer industry-competitive space
and those that want to tell us that AA already does that needs to account for every inch of size difference and tell us why other airlines which also offer domestic first and extra space economy put fewer seats on the same models than AA.
Doesn’t this directly contradict Airbus’s defense against the complaint by Boeing? As I recall, they claimed Boeing didn’t incur damages from the illegal A220 subsidies because the 737 doesnt compete directly with the A220…and they won on that claim. That seems to be clearly false.
American doesn’t need more 737 sized aircraft, even the MAX7. They have a serious gap in the <100-150 seat category, and it’s only going to get worse as the aging Airbus fleet begins to retire.
An order of A220s would fulfill that need, and allow AA to continue upgauging regional routes to mainline without having to jump all the way to a 172 seat 737.
As an FA, the 737 (especially the MAX) is our worst aircraft to work. I’m hopeful for my own sanity.
Ok
Great, more of Jurassic Jet, Satan’s Chariot (aka the 737).
What’s wrong with the seat pitch on the aa MAX, tim?
30” in economy is the standard minimum on most of delta’s fleet. Delta certainly has some rows with more in economy but most of their planes are flying around with 30” in the back for quite a bit of the cabin.
37” in first is standard on the max and all new planes coming to delta. The “redone” delta planes mostly are 37” except that most have a first row at much less legroom, an issue AA fixed in their first class max cabin (Kodiak), but delta did not and flies around a good portion of their fleet with an entire F row at 35” instead of the AA max at 37”.
I’d prefer all rows have more legroom as well, but the AA Max, for all the griping people do about it is industry standard in terms of 30” pitch and first legroom
mantis,
you’re going to have to connect the dots on your logic.
The A220 is not a part of AA’s consideration so far as we know.
DL is the only US operator of the A220-100 which was where Boeing claimed harmed and where the courts ruled otherwise. Those planes were made in Canada.
Nearly all other US carrier A220-300s are being built in the US.
I knew you coudn’t help yourself, Max, but at least you focused on the topic.
Just tell us where the extra space that DL has on their 737-800s goes that AA has “eliminated” by having 12 more seats on the plane.
And, no, Delta’s standard main cabin domestic seat pitch is 31 inches, not 30.
The same people that make the argument about DL’s A321CEOs fail to note that DL has spaceflex toilets behind the rear galley while AA does not.
Just the data, max. please and thank you
The same people argue that the
Facts? 30” is the minimum standard for delta, not 31”
Not disputing that the ancient and not remodeled delta 738s have more legroom in the back room. But they also look like garbage inside. Aa redid their 738s in the oasis remodel and used a 30” legroom standard, like delta had already done for most of their airbus retrofits. But, like I said. Aa went back and changed the first class bulkhead row when they realized it was an inferior experience. Delta did not and still flies around with that less legroom seat on their retrofit birds
New/recent deliveries for delta:
739: https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/boeing/737-900er. 30”
A321ceo: https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/airbus/a321 30”
A221: https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/airbus/a220-100 30”
Then the remodeled birds:
A319: https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/airbus/a319 30”
A320: https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/airbus/a320. 30” and first class is 35-36”
B717: https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/boeing/717. 30”
Like I said. Not all economy on these planes is 30” but delta continues to get new deliveries of many of these planes at 30”. Their remodels went with 30” in the back and, in some cases, sub-MAX first class legroom.
It’s not a standard of 31” for delta when nearly all their planes fly around with 30” legroom, exactly like the max
The better question is why delta a321ceos have 30” legroom when, like you said, they have space flex toilets in the back wall.
Talk about Deltas debt that is coming!
DELTA HAS THE OLDEST FLEET IN THE INDUSTRY!
REPLACING ALL THOSE 717,757 AND 767’S
WILL BE COSTLY!
ITS COMING.
THOSE 757 AND 767’S WILL HAVE RELIABILITY ISSUES!
DL spacing is even worse when you consider the boxes under the seats to hold their ancient IFE equipment ( that works 10% of the time) and their worthless 110 v plus ( that never work) . At least United’s equipment is wireless and will work for a few year before they are out of money to fix it. AA domestic interiors maybe boring but at least they are common by plane and I know what I am getting, good video equipment with wireless ear pods (because they are mine and they work), big overhead bins and power /wifi. The rest are a crap shoot.
As usual, all kinds of people jump on with factually incorrect info instead of answering the basic question.
There are some rows of DL’s fleets that have 30 inches of pitch but the economy class spacing standard on DL’s domestic narrowbody fleet is 31 inch.
Just as is true w/ Gary, finding exceptions does not change the norm.
The NORM for AA’s 738s is 30 inches of coach in economy.
American puts more seats in the same amount of space than other airlines and that means there has to be something that gives. And it is tighter seats which facts show – except for those that can’t stand the actual facts so argue anyway.
and Delta’s standard for new in-flight systems is tablet-based without boxes. Sunviking, as usual, knows nothing.
Delta has more domestic airplanes with its new standard of seatback Wifi than UA has in its entire domestic fleet w/ any seatback entertainment systems.
and John,
United has the oldest fleet among large jet US airlines – more than 2 years older than Delta’s.
And UAL’s fleet of 757s and 767s is virtually the same age as DAL’s.
DAL’s 717 fleet is younger than AA’s A320 fleet.
All facts. As inconvenient as they are for some.
You can say whatever you want, tim. 30” is the standard legroom for delta, like their website says. From the many links I posted both new deliveries and retrofits. And again, the only standard has in first class, is either matching the MAX at aa or providing less legroom than it.
Feel free to provide the facts to prove otherwise. I did. You, apparently, don’t know much about delta’s own website and their own legroom claims
But, it is always fun when you walk into such an obvious trap, ask for data, then don’t know how to respond to delta.com data.
You can do better 😉
Would be fun to see a left field order for the E195-E2
Delta the world’s only PERFECT airline.
To the potential order: The 737MAX7 has grown to be about the same size as the A320, so those would be the possibilities, as I see it. As the author observes. it’ll probably come down to who offers the better overall deal. As for the A220/E-JetsE2: Both will work in American’s network, IMHO. The vast majority of regional jet flights don’t utilize the potential of the E2, much less the A220. And…an airline can get 3 E-Jets for the price of 2 A220s. But I can see where Airbus could offer American an exceptional deal – and the possibility of an A225 might swing the deal in Airbus’ favor.
As for the somewhat overblown issue of debt: American has about 55 to 60 aircraft being delivered each year between 2025 and 2026. That’s about how many aircraft an airline the size of American needs to have in the pipeline to replace a 950 aircraft mainline fleet. What got American into trouble was waiting so long to order replacement aircraft it had to take over 100 frames per year (as United is doing now). American’s management is probably a bit smarter than the author or American’s other main detractor think. It’s rather sad when people root for companies to be liquidated, costing thousands of people their jobs.
Max,
I’m glad that you are focusing on the topic but you highlight when you actually do focus on the topic why you are so easy to beat in a debate.
You use the term “minimum standard” and then separate the two as if you have proven something but all you have proven is that either don’t know English, math, or logic or just hope we don’t.
The very Delta aircraft sites you cite show that Delta provides a RANGE of seat pitches and, to nobody’s surprise, you quote the minimum and then act as if that the standard or norm.
Minimum means the lowest number in a range. Standard means the most common, average or better, or something to that effect. The minimum can only be the standard IF and only if the majority of seats are at the minimum.
Delta does not say how many seats are at any pitch but AeroLOPA does provide the norm and the exceptions. In no case is the minimum – the number you are fixated – translate into the norm for Delta.
In fact, AeroLOPA shows that 31 is indeed the STANDARD pitch.
And a number of the Delta specific seat pages you cite show that the range INCLUDES 32 inch. But of course you excluded them.
All of this and you still cannot answer the basic question as to where DL doesn’t use the space on the 738 which AA uses or, in other words, how can AA put 12 more seats on the same aircraft and not reduce space? Just answer that question, Max.
Ghost,
I’m not sure if you love to dwell on exaggerations or if you really believe what you write including that Delta is perfect.
The only thing that matters is here is the truth of seat pitch. and it isn’t what MAX wants you to believe.
The 737-7 is NOT the same size as the A320NEO. The 737-8 and the A320NEO are comparable in cabin space.
The A225 will not be introduced until Airbus can increase production and that will require another production line. The A225 will significantly reduce the viability of the 737-8 and the A320NEO which is why Airbus is taking their time introducing it.
The takeaway is that AA will likely order either the 737MAX or the A320NEO families unless Airbus is willing to pull the trigger on the A225 but so will a whole line up of airlines – including DL – order it.
and if AA wants to put 172 or more seats on the MAX and keep legacy industry comparable or better seat pitch, they need the MAX 9 or 10 and not the MAX 8.
AA’s MAX 8 has a justified reputation as a tight airplane – because it is.
Oh tim
The desperate attempts you go to defending delta lol. You don’t even know what to say when delta.com says you’re wrong.
Thanks for the chuckle. You’re too easy sometimes 🙂
And I did talk about the oasis configuration vs delta 738 above. Perhaps you missed it.
Delta is flying around old crappy 738s and hasn’t reconfigured those planes. Like most delta planes; I’ve flown it. Many times.
Delta hasn’t don’t a real retrofit on their 738; AA followed the delta airbus retrofit model when they retrofitted their 738s providing 30” economy pitch, just like every link from delta.com I referenced shows. They also exceeded the delta first class legroom with 37” pitch standard, after realizing they’d messed up. Delta had the same issue but didn’t even try to fix it so they now have either matching or less legroom than the max on their retrofits.
Wish you all the best, Tim
I’m landing in Gary’s town and don’t plan to ruin some margaritas with silly seat pitch talk
All the best
No, Max, you can’t read.
Delta provides a RANGE of pitches.
You picked the lowest and called it STANDARD.
And that is true for EVERY aircraft in Delta’s fleet.
The majority of Delta’s economy seats are NOT 30 inches.
You can’t admit you are wrong.
Of course you want to walk away from the conversation and denigrate me when it is you that waded into a conversation that you were unprepared to accurately compete in.
Go have a drink.
ps. You STILL have not explained how AA manages to put 12 more seats on the same size airplane that Delta has 160 seats on. Where, oh where, Max, is the difference.
if AA wants to put 172 seats on a MAX and have industry standard or comparable pitch in a US mixed class legacy configuration, they need the MAX 9 or 10
lol
You don’t know how to read, tim. I’ve answered your weird 738 question three times now?
Or understand what “standard” means lol
It’s not standard when it isn’t standard anywhere on delta’s fleet
Geez
Get a life 🙂
minimum is not standard, Max.
it isn’t a hard concept for anyone to understand.
I thought you were drinking by now.
Maybe you are and that’s why we get the response we have here.
MaxPower,
Did you get a chance to read the recent article from Live and Let’s Fly about Tim? He never knows when to give it a rest. You will find it interesting what others have to say about Tim’s comments. Here is the article: https://liveandletsfly.com/united-airlines-vulnerable/
You believe delta PR when they say 31” is standard
Ironically, I believe delta.com when they prove 30” is their standard and say it’s their seat pitch on most of their fleet. Per their own website.
This isn’t tough
You seem to have no life except trying to say delta has more seat pitch than delta says they do.
Who knew I’d say this. When delta.com says you don’t know what you’re talking about, just go ahead and believe it tim
Your weird thing is weird and tragic
Happy Halloween, you delta zombie 🙂
Why am I not surprised that TD is so interested in an extra inch lol.
Buying new aircraft isn’t going to do a damn thing for American but to increase their debt. Why doesn’t American focus on customer service, employee relations, spotless aircraft, nice interiors and impeccable service? Maybe that will help their bottom line and their public image? Then they should think of new aircraft. I would think that passengers don’t look at the aircraft’s data plate to note the age of the aircraft and then complain. Instead, passengers note that the aircraft are well maintained, have refreshed interiors and (reasonably) well prepared food and super customer service from first encounter with the airline to baggage claim.
I too like every other commenter in the universe also questions Tim’s logic. AA has an extra 12 seats (~8%) vs. DL and an extra 6 seats (~4%) vs. UA on their 738 but for some reason AA should be admonished.
But DL is applauded for it’s industry leading CASM on running 336 seater A359 w/o direct aisle J or PE flying LH routes such as NZ, Deep South America, AMS/CDG, and previously Israel. Not even Air Canada runs a configuration like that on similarly sized aircraft and they’re known to pack seats the most out of the North Americans.
Airlines tend to run dense on short-haul routes and sparse on long haul routes. Why do they need to run industry competitive space on a 738 when DL doesn’t even offer that on many of their flagship A359?
Funny how DL has been talking about a aircraft order for so long and will probably place an order after AA even when AC, UA, and several European, Asian, and South Pacific carriers have already placed blockbuster massive orders.
Lobbyists are supposed to garner support for a particular side, and yet Tim role plays one daily for DL and manages the polar opposite.
AA Ramper here “plane and simple” we don’t want more 737’s 99% of hate working them. It’s where we get the most on the job injuries. Most of our FA don’t like them either. I think the only reason they are considering more 737s is to keep the peace among the pilots. But in my opinion the Airbus A220-300 is a great fit. But the whole order should not be 737s they should consider something else.
it isn’t hard to grasp the concept that the EXCEPTION of 30 inch pitch on DL’s domestic fleet is NOT the standard or norm and AeroLOPA tells you exactly where anything other than 31 inch exists – but you ignore that because you want to push your false statements.
Gary is the beneficiary as he gets more clicks – and you wonder why I have to spend so much time on here and elsewhere countering your lies.
And DL marketing discount is more of the same.
1. DL has 9 out of 28 ex-Latam A350s which is NOWHERE near a majority – not even “Many” And Delta has said they will reconfigure those aircraft which are far more comfortable than UA’s 777-200 domestics.
2. There are 4 out of 6 abreast seats on the ex-Latam A350s that DO HAVE direct aisle access. 2 of the 6 do not. There is more than enough opportunity for those that want an aisle to have them.
3. Air Canada operates 450 seat 77Ws and UA operates 365 seat 772 which are far more dense than the DL ex-Latam A350s. And again, DL is going to reconfigure those but AC and UA are not.
It is not hard to catch people in their lies when they try to quote “facts”
Getting them to admit they are wrong is completely impossible = which is why Gary’s site is littered with low quality posts from low IQ posters
Remember, one key reason why Boeing MAXed the 737 instead of going clean-sheet is because AA strong-armed Boeing into doing that in 2011
Tim,
Thanks for acknowledging that a third (many) of DLs A359 don’t have direct aisle access in J or missing PE entirely. It’s not surprising that you use Air Canada’s 773 instead of the 772 or 333 which are similarly sized to the A359. And you’re the one calling people low IQ, projecting and over compensating for your frail ego again, lol.
The direct competitor of the AA/AC/UA 773 is DL’s paper A35K. AFAIK, the UAs domestic 772 are being used domestically and not for long haul ops like DL’s UHD 359. Perhaps, we should also call out JL for their 391 seater A359 as industry trailing seat configs with your top tier logic. Something about not using dense configurations for long haul is a difficult concept for you to understand.
24 hours after the first post, not one person can deny that AA’s 738s/MAX8s have less space per passenger on average than every other DL or UA aircraft because 30 inch pitch IS the standard because AA puts 12 more passengers on the same aircraft than DL.
There is no other way for AA to do that without decreasing space.
All the failed attempts at trying to find fault don’t change that.
And AA has 355 737-800s/MAX8s in their fleet and that number is growing. the 737 fleet is AA’s largest. AA has no intention of reconfiguring those aircraft.
Talking about 9 ex-Latam aircraft that serve leisure and high volume/low premium markets is the height of hypocrisy. But that is to be fully expected from the mental midgets that simply should have admitted 23 hours ago that AA, does in fact, have 30 inch pitch as the standard on their narrowbody domestic fleet
either they will continue to have a sub-par legacy domestic cabin as a combination of no seatback IFE AND less space or they have to buy a larger aircraft if they want to put that many seats on it.
It isn’t rocket science for anyone else to understand.
Tim,
Thank you for admitting that DL runs a high CASM 738 vs AA/UA which is why competitors have lower CASMs overall and are able to better manage costs.
A third of DL’s A350 fleet is UHD and flies routes such as ATL-AMS/CDG/SCL/TLV. But yes, thank you for also admitting that these routes are high density low premium and require high volume to be sustainable.
Whoever smelt it, dealt it. And boy, does Tim Dunn have a fetish for smelling mental midgets.
you’re a pathetic loser.
You do realize that in every one of those routes, Delta offers aircraft other than the ex-Latam A350s? Everyone that wants a “premium cabin” experience is free to fly one of the flights that offers them.
SCL sees a mix of A350s including regularly getting the two newest factory delivered aircraft.
what you simply cannot accept is that AA offers the tightest seats of any of the big 4 on more of its aircraft than any other airline.
Your pathetic attempts to deflect from that reality are duly noted.
Tim,
Thanks for admitting that DL has the most product inconsistencies among its peers especially in its premium cabins (or lack of in the case of premium economy) and regularly schedules it’s worst product on routes such as ATL-AMS/CDG/SCL/TLV which are high density low premium and require high volume to be sustainable.
Apologies that your thin skinned and frail ego have little resilience whenever countless commentators prove you wrong again.
Try again next time, and maybe you’ll fail less.
no, son, it is Untied, not Delta, that has the most product inconsistencies on its international fleet.
While criticizing 10 window seats on 9 DL ex-Latam A350s, you conveniently ignore United’s fleet of 757 fleet that is not only much larger than Delta’s ex-Latam fleet but UA operates far more flights on their 757s with far more seats than Delta does on its ex-Latam 350s.
And we won’t even get into the much narrower seats on ALL of United’s 787s and 777 in coach. You and others think it is ok to argue about a handful of premium seats while excusing a much worse experience for hundreds of other passengers on the same plane.
so spare us the critiques of who is thin-skinned and the flat-out lies about who you think – devoid of actual facts – has a less inconsistent fleet.
The facts are obvious for anyone that is willing to objectively look
The Max 7 fits best as a A319 replacement. I think a Max 7 and 8 order along with maintaining the 321 variants or ordering more XLRs for the larger narrow body needs is a good bet for network flexibility and reliability. AA has a lot of east coast hubs that it could deploy higher range, lower seat aircraft on. AA worked to simplify its fleet but for a more reliable operation, they need to make all hubs FA and Pilot bases for both A & B aircraft. Max 7 has the extra length over a 700NG and slots it well between 319 or 320. Max 7 also has the greatest range of any Max which can help AA deploy new routes or increase frequency; Boston to Europe, Increased frequency outside of DFW to Central/Northern South America, West Coast to HI, and increased frequency potential for transcon routes. The Embraer 195 could fit a the needed 100-150 seat niche well too, but I assume it would add more complexity to the system that AA has worked to do without. The E series jets are appreciated for the lack of a middle seat but the carry-on conundrum cancels it out those benefits imo. I’d love to see how these jets compare by the numbers – wonder how much the E2 195 would save AA over a Max 7 on the routes they are using a 319 for (which typically seem to be lower range flights anyway).
No, abuelitim.
“You do realize that in every one of those routes, Delta offers aircraft other than the ex-Latam A350s? Everyone that wants a “premium cabin” experience is free to fly one of the flights that offers them.
SCL sees a mix of A350s including regularly getting the two newest factory delivered aircraft.”
You mean how until end of schedule SCL has no premium economy for sale? How GRU is the only destination in all of South America for DL that has premium economy for sale? Having to resort to the occasional aircraft swap to make your argument is the typical low hanging fruit that is typical of Tim Dunn.
UA has 100% of its international wide bodies equipped with Polaris and Premium Economy. Do I need to provide itemized numbers that 100% is 100% Something about repetition being a necessity for slow learners like Tim.
DL has A330s with two different J products. A350? Two different configs, one without premium economy or direct aisle J. 763? Some flying internationally still don’t have PE. 764, that particular J product only available on that type.
UA has 9 transatlantic destinations scheduled with the 757, 8 of which are seasonal. DL has 9 international destinations total scheduled with premium economy configured A350, of which LOS and AKL are seasonal. DL has 757, 763, and A350 all without premium economy flying transatlantic.
757 has two scheduled transatlantic, 763 three, and no direct aisle J and premium economyless A350 on 11.
Your arguments are essentially softballs and are as weak as your ego, perhaps you should give the sport a try. You don’t ever to use data or facts which is nothing new for you. At this point, anything other than aviation is worth a shot.
I should starting collecting quarters for how many times your arguments die and immediately try to respawn with a new one.
DL has NO transatlantic destinations other than to KEF that do not have premium economy.
UA does the EXACT SAME THING with their 757s as DL does with the ex-Latam A350s – use them to provide extra capacity on routes that already have ALL classes. Same thing for non-767 routes that don’t have premium economy.
And whether a destination is seasonal or not, UA most certainly does use 757s on destinations that are served only by the 757.
And for 8 F’ing years that United took to get Polaris on its widebody fleet, you didn’t hear everyone else trashing UA for its pi78 poor product. And yet the minute UA manages to get polaris on all of its widebodies, you pretend the 757s all of a sudden only fly for a few months per year.
They don’t.
UA flies MORE aircraft on a year round basis with an uncompetitive business cabin 2 X 2 on a narrowbody and no premium economy but you go absolutely apesh#$ over 9 ex-Latam aircraft which Delta WILL modify.
You are a complete hypocrite.
And you fundamentally can’t answer the question why, if UA is doing such a bang up job with its fleet and its revenue, they need to spend 3X more on fleet and yet Delta grows just as much and UA still is 2nd fiddle to UA in profitability.
UA is THE VAPORWARE of the industry and you and Scott Kirby simply cannot accept that his intent from years ago to match DL’s profits is still elusive and won’t happen.
Your majesty the hanger Queen Tim Dunn,
All that keyboard banging and again still no data. Anyone surprised? Not me.
So what does the data actually say?
United has rolled out its Polaris product on the entirety of its nearly 200 wide bodies which started only in 2016. That’s just under 30 aircraft per year. Delta has just over 40 aircraft with the latest product with doors that was initiated in 2017. That’s 7 aircraft per year.
How many ex-LA A350 have the suites? 0
A300-300? 0
A330-200? 0
767-300ER? 0
Great progress for 7 years. Give yourself a Pat on the back Tim for such great research.
Profitability?
Q3 2022
Net Income
DL 759M (5.4%)
UA 942M (7.3%)
Revenue
DL 13.99B
UA 12.88B
H2 2022
Net Income
DL 1.69B (6.1%)
UA 1.79B (7.1%)
Revenue
DL 27.45B
UA 25.28B.
Q3 2022 – Q1 2023
Net Income
DL 1.41B (3.5%)
UA 1.59B (4.2%)
Revenue
DL 40.24B
UA 36.71B
When the data doesn’t lie, Tim always cries. Mentioning that Delta carries more passengers, has more flights, but brings in less revenue and profits, activates the Tim Dunn temper tantrum.
How many more arguments do you have to lose for this to count as a sweep. Is this best out of 50?
When the data doesn’t lie, Tim always cries. All hail the Hanger Queen, Tim Dunn!
NO, Tim is not crying.
You manage to pick the post-covid recovery period in which I have specifically said that United gained a profit advantage because of Kirby’s decision not to retire aircraft.
Lovely. Really. UA still now has the oldest fleet in the industry, an order book that is 3X any other airline, and still has dozens of aircraft that you want to pretend are competitive when they clearly are not.
Delta has 9 ex-Latam A350s, they were acquired during covid and the first will be into service w/ DL’s new cabins in the next year. The entire project will be done in far less than the 7 years it took UA.
UA’s 757s are not much different than DL’s ex-Latam in terms of not offering all direct aisle seating or premium economy – but you pretend that all of those aircraft only fly for a couple months per year and the UA 757 fleet is multiples of times larger than DL’s ex-LA A350 fleet.
And UA doesn’t have a SINGLE aircraft that has a door w/ suites, unlike DL’s factory build A350s and 339s.
Let’s face it that you are just like the children at the kiddie table site that selectively pick out whatever you want.
UA is not as profitable as DL and still has yet to settle w/ its FAs – which will set them back
hundreds of millions per year. UA is losing share in key major markets including NYC because they overhubbed EWR and that is no longer sustainable. EZE, GIG and HNL are just a couple markets that DL will serve from JFK but UA can’t from EWR. And DL is 20% larger in terms of flights than UA.
Just stop the BS and explain to us how and why UA cannot reach DL’s profit numbers either on a system level but over an extended period of time.
None of which changes that AA, for all of its problems, still has built a far larger southern US route system than DL or UA and has a newer fleet – which is why they will spend a fraction of what UA will have to spend on fleet.
Grow up and admit the truth
UA is an also ran that is chasing DL up front and being driven by raft of ex-HP/US/AA execs that are trying desperately to find fault w/ AA.
UA’s downfall is coming.
Dear Your Majesty Hanger Queen Tim Dunn,
AFAIK, UA isn’t flying the 757 to Deep South America, South Pacific, CDG/AMS and formerly Israel whereas DL is running premium economyless and no direct aisle access J A350 to these markets. The 757 isn’t needed to sustain international markets that are high volume, low fare, and low premium. UA uses HD configs for Hawaii, whereas DL uses them Deep South America, South Pacific, and CDG/AMS.
You asked for profitability, and I gave the numbers. You write a 95 point theses to excuse Delta being less profitable. So let’s do another range.
Q1 2017 – Q4 2020
DL 87.65M loss
UA 223.96M profit
DL carried more passengers, flew more flights, earned more total revenue and still wasn’t profitable over the same period.
Now I’ve given a range that has previously spanned multiple quarters. Now I’m showing a range of 4 years and 15 total quarters that shows Delta less profitable.
You’re constantly long winded, superfluous, and full of non sequitur arguments. But one thing you can never provide is the actual numbers and data to support your argument. Stop overcompensating for your frail ego with trying to hit word count in all of your posts. Must be something about Scott Kirby living rent free in your head every day Delta fails to place a wide body aircraft order.
When the data doesn’t lie, Tim always cries. All hail the Hanger Queen, Tim Dunn!
QED
no, you have cherrypicked specific time periods, all of which show Delta at a disadvantage and UA at an advantage.
What you refuse to do is look at broad and complete periods of time, refusing to look at all 4 quarters of a year or five or 10 year periods.
UA has simply underperformed DL for years even though Kirby made it his mission to match DL’s profits when he came to UA.
And specific to fleet, UA has the oldest fleet among US airlines, the least consistent product and most fuel inefficient fleet among US global carriers and is having to spend more money to chase Kirby’s dream plan and replace its miss-matched and tired fleet, and UA will be worse off than AA by the time Kirby is kicked out the door.
Delta has no high density configurations. It has no aircraft with 10 abreast seating – which is what makes the 777 fleet high density.
UA does not have premium economy or direct aisle business class on scores of widebodies including the HD 777s and 757s.
Grow up and realize that UA is an also ran that is run by an egotistical, insecure person that wrecked AA and AA is still trying to get past Kirby’s poor decisions there.
AA has a younger and far more efficient fleet than UA and AA will need to spend far less to get what it needs.
Dear Your Majesty Hanger Queen Tim Dunn,
How is 2017-2020 in any way or form an advantage for United?
I gave you 3 quarters (Q3 2022 to Q1 2023), but of course you made up excuses. Then I provided 16 quarters (Q1 2017 to Q4 2020) and you made up even more excuses.
How about Q1 2020 to Q2 2023?
DL 8.84B loss
UA 7.41B loss
Which is impressive how UA the airline which was most affected by pandemic travel restrictions and flies the most international had smaller losses than DL.
If
1) UA carries less passengers and flies less flights
2) DL posted a loss from 2017-2020 while UA posted profits
3) DL had greater losses than UA from 2020-2023
Then you’re exactly right, UA has the advantage as being the better carrier without having to make any excuses. Must be something about the Scott Kirby management and having the leadership to place an aircraft order rather than talking for years about a wide body order and doing nothing. Which is the Tim Dunn frail ego and overcompensation strategy, lots of talk and nothing including data to show for it. I can see why Scott Kirby constantly lives rent free in your head.
AA is doing great and is much less vulnerable than DL which is the most vulnerable of the US3 given the perpetual losses in multiple periods. AA and UA will continue to grow at the expense of DL.
All hail the hanger Queen Tim Dunn!
because you can’t grasp that special charges, which Delta took in large measure during the pandemic, are not a reflection of how well a company is run.
You cannot show regular series of years and prove that UA was more profitable because they were not.
Delta took massive special charges, got rid of old and fuel thirsty aircraft and now has lower costs as a result.
And more significantly, Delta will be paying much less in taxes for years to come – if they pay taxes at all – because they took special charges when they could.
Since you love numbers, tell us the value of the NOLs at all of the big 3 and then based on 2023 YTD financials, let us know how long each of those NOLs will last.
And don’t forget to show your math.
All you are showing is that United, with you as their spokesman, cannot compete on a fair and equal basis with their competition without misrepresenting and manipulating the truth and disparaging their competitors.
btw, let us know how much UA’s FA settlement is going to set them back.
and let us know when UA will have to start borrowing money and stop burning cash that it hoarded – thanks to the government during the pandemic
and let us know when UAL will pay a dividend – which is part of why their market cap is well below DAL and LUV.
United is an also ran house of cards.
Dear Your Majesty Queen Tim Dunn,
So when I make an argument, I give the data. When I disprove your argument, I give the data. I have provided so much data in so many of my responses to you, where is your data?
When you make an argument, others have to provide the data? You truly are deserving of the title hanger queen of the comments.
Or maybe it’s because, you don’t have data. Every time you solicit data for your claim, I provide it and then you continue to make a thousand excuses in every operating handbook known to man without even providing a minuscule amount of tangible data. Always, predictably, and without fail. You have the lowest data dispatch rate known to mankind.
You’re clearly out of your element in even the most rudimentary understanding of the industry. And as always, you provide no data to support your arguments. I provide profitability rates over 6.5 years, and this is your predictably weak response? Go back to the data hyper allergenic kiddie table Tim where it’s a safe space for those are analytically illiterate .
When the numbers, data, and facts don’t lie, Tim always cries.
All hail the hanger queen of the comments, Tim Dunn!
If you can’t figure out that you STILL can’t include 3 consecutive years of normal business activity, then you simply prove you aren’t interest in a rational discussion.
How about we just take the first 3 quarters or nine months of 2023? No need to gyrate numbers because companies regularly report on that basis.
Net Income for AA $803 million, for DL $2.572 Billion and for UA $2.018 billion.
No manipulation of anything, not a pandemic period. All 3 carriers took similar charges for pilot settlement even though AA and UA have not settled with FAs.
in other words, as close to comparable as could be but you just want to argue because you don’t like the bottom line result – even though that is exactly what the audited financial results show.
UA is an also ran looking up DL’s tailpipe
Your Majesty Hanger Queen Tim Dunn,
Wow you’re finally a big boy! You finally included data for once. Let me help complete that incomplete data for you.
Q1 2020 – Q3 2023
Total Operating Revenue
DL 141.401B
UA 125.035B
Net Loss
DL 8.299B (-6%)
UA 6.278B (-5%)
In other words, Delta still has 2 billion dollars of additional losses accrued from 2020 despite carrying more revenue, passengers, and flights. But good for you in trying to pick 3 quarters to change that.
When the data and the facts don’t lie, Tim always cries.
All hail the hanger queen Tim Dunn!
cling to the pandemic.
In a real non-diseased period, UA runs as a third rate carrier.
And it will spend $35 billion more than DL to get rid of the hundreds of regional jets that Kirby held onto just 3 years ago.
When the facts are noticeably irrelevant, the WIllis tower basement bunch just regurgitates over and over and over again.
And then asks UA passengers to sit in the vomit.
Dear Your Majesty Hanger Queen Tim Dunn,
Ok, let’s use the MRQ then.
Q3 2023
Revenue
DL 15.488B
UA 14.484B
Net Income
DL 1.108B (7%)
UA 1.137B (8%)
In a diseased on nondiseased period, DL is less profitable and lower margin than its competitors. But hey, carry more passengers, more flights, more loses, because tax benefits!
When the data doesn’t lie, Tim always cries!
All hail the hanger queen, Tim Dunn!