Delta Just Claimed It’s 100 Years Old—But United Airlines Actually Takes That Crown First Next Year

United Airlines is the oldest U.S. airline – not Delta. That’s true, even though Delta is celebrating its 100th anniversary this year, and both United and American won’t celebrate theirs until next year.

Right now American is promoting its centennial with the slogan ‘forever forward’. But it’s all backward-looking, old accomplishments and little about where they’re actually going.

Delta, though, seems to have shifted its origin story to claim 1925 as its birth year.

  • The June 2004 issue of Delta’s inflight magazine commemorated 75 years for the airline.

  • The Delta name was adopted in 1928 and passenger service began in 1929. So they claimed their birth year was 1929 back then.

  • It’s only been 21 years since then, but somehow they aged 25 years during that time?

What happened in the interim? Well, they merged with Northwest Airlines. That gives them a credible claim to a history starting in 1926, just like American Airlines and United. But that’s not good enough for Delta, which more than anything is about narrative (they rent out the Sphere in Las Vegas for their CEO to introduce… a partnership with DraftKings that wasn’t even done with and that they’d swap out working wiht Lyft with Uber).

The claim to 1925 stems from the founding of the world’s first agricultural crop-dusting company, Huff Daland Dusters. That wasn’t an airline!


Credit: Delta

American Airlines traces its origins to several small carriers, including Robertson Aircraft Corporation (1926), which carried mail and passengers. The group included Colonial Air Transport and Southern Air Transport. In 1930, financier E. L. Cord brought together over 80 small carriers to form American Airways, Inc., offering a mix of passenger services and air mail routes.

Varney Airlines, founded by Walter T. Varney on April 6, 1926, was one of the carriers that merged into United Airlines during its formation in 1931 under the umbrella of Boeing Air Transport. United was a direct product of Boeing’s antitrust-mandated divestiture. Continental Airlines, merged with United, also traces to Varney – Varney Speed Lines was a separate company founded in 1934 and renamed Continental Airlines in 1937 under new ownership.

United, American and Northwest all trace to 1926! And so does Delta (via Northwest Airlines).

United’s first Varney flight in April 1926 pre-dates Robertson’s July 1926 air mail route, so technically United’s predecessor got there first. Northwest Airways, Inc. was incorporated on September 1, 1926, launched its first airmail service on October 1 between Minneapolis and Chicago, and began passenger service in 1927.

So United is the oldest U.S. airline, American second oldest, and Delta third – all by a few months. But since that’s not good enough for Delta’s narrative, they changed their mind about when they were founded. Delta had long claimed that they were founded, prior to merging with Northwest, in 1929. The Northwest merger gives them a 1926 founding. But they’ve pivoted to claim 1925 – and be first.

Huff Daland Dusters was founded in Macon, Georgia, and later moved to Monroe, Louisiana. The business was initially combating boll weevil infestations in cotton crops. It was purchased by local investors and renamed Delta Air Service in 1928, beginning passenger service in 1929. Its first route was Dallas – Jackson, Mississippi. Delta Air Lines moved its headquarters to Atlanta in 1941.

I write about this all because it strikes me as the most Delta thing ever. Delta is a good airline. They may even be 80% as good as they say they are. But they can’t just let the facts speak for themselves. They have to tell a story… even if the story is only tangentially related to the facts.

By the by, the oldest airline operating today is KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, founded on October 7, 1919. It’s been in continuous operation under the same name since the beginning. The second-oldest airline currently in operation is Avianca.

(HT: Luke)

About Gary Leff

Gary Leff is one of the foremost experts in the field of miles, points, and frequent business travel - a topic he has covered since 2002. Co-founder of frequent flyer community InsideFlyer.com, emcee of the Freddie Awards, and named one of the "World's Top Travel Experts" by Conde' Nast Traveler (2010-Present) Gary has been a guest on most major news media, profiled in several top print publications, and published broadly on the topic of consumer loyalty. More About Gary »

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Comments

  1. @ Gary — And we ironically have DL to thank for Macon (and Montgomery and Columbus and many other places) basically having no air service. Their needs to be another major airport in the region, but Delta will do ANYTHING to stop it. Delta holds back south-central GA and south-central AL from attaining their full growth potential. Well, that and the idiot voters that live there.

  2. In the USA a few lies a day are a norm from what I can tell. If the leader lies publicly on the daily, what’s the big deal if a company does once in awhile?

  3. If only EASTERN had held on, they would have been in the mix too
    April 19, 1926 as Pitcairn
    Before Delta (imagine that)
    Miss them every day

  4. Thank you for the great review.
    If only EASTERN had held on, they would have been in the mix too
    April 19, 1926 as Pitcairn
    Even before Delta (imagine that)
    Miss them every day

  5. Blah, blah… semantics. Here goes Gary, again… riling up the base! Clearly it’s working… @Gene already on the attack. Where’s our knight, @Tim Dunn, to slay this dragon? Fear not, my liege… I still prefer Delta, and very much like KLM, especially those Delft Blue Houses…

  6. Making up things to tell a narrative that doesn’t exist is certainly the most delta thing ever…

    @gene I guess I’ll bite…
    MGM? Does it need more service than the ATL, CLT, DCA, and DFW it already has? That doesn’t seem all that bad for them?

    MCN is EAS so it’s not really that surprising that one carrier serves it with a subsidy from the government while others don’t think it’s worth while to compete with a subsidy.

    CSG — I guess but it’s not like airlines haven’t tried like AA and DL. It’s just low yield army traffic there.
    If anything, only one airport in Atlanta providing all the connectivity to a place like CSG is likely the only reason that airport had service

    Don’t get me wrong. Citizens of Atlanta benefit from the enormous airport and nonstops to the world from a unique dots per capita perspective, but their pocket books certainly do suffer from the cabal of Delta and the city preventing new airports under fake citizen groups.

  7. @ 1990 — United is better if you want to fly to more than five international destinations in something other than a POS 763.

  8. @ MaxPower — In 2023, MGM had 181,000 enplanements vs a metro population of 385,000. By comparison, LIT had 1.1 million enplanements vs a metro population of 748,000. Why such a huge difference? ATL airport. I suppose one could argue that the access to ATL is a benefit to those living in the MGM metro, especially those in the eastern part, which is probably a 2-hour drive from ATL. In traffic, it probably takes that long to drive from Athens, GA to ATL.

  9. @Gene — True, true.. if one *needs* to fly from NRT-UBN or EWR-GOH on aging 737s with only recliners up front… Ulaanbaatar? More like Ulaan-byebye. And, Greenland?! Better get GOH-ing… (I’m just havin’ fun over here.)

  10. Well, Gene. You certainly win the ‘random comparison to make a point’ award.

    I wish I had the interest to dissect LIT vs MGM travel patterns but given service at both airports, I’m not sure ATL is to blame for MGM woes 😉

    But CLT is always a good airport to blame for most things, when in doubt

  11. The original company predecessor of Delta was either founded in 1925 or it wasn’t.

    It was.

    And, no, Linda, United wasn’t first and isn’t first in much of anything now. The only thing it WAS first in is holding the record for the longest and most expensive airline bankruptcy in US airline history.
    and UA does fly more ASMs and burn more jet fuel to generate less revenue.

    and UA is #4 in the US domestic market and #6 in Florida. Apparently, fixating on adding flights to Greenland and Mongolia isn’t profit-maximizing after all.

  12. @Tim Dunn — Our knight in shining armor! Keep climbing! 100 more years!

    @MaxPower — Thank you for not neglecting the CLT…

  13. Airlines lie all of the time. It is part of who they are. They lie about the weather. They lie about carry-on space. They lie about food. Those are just a few examples. Frankly I would be surprised if the lying didn’t go all of the way to the top.

  14. @jns — So, like, are you a full-blown nihilist, or a mere cynic? Like, my goodness, they aren’t lying all the time, only when it’s an inconvenient truth, like, whoopsie, we forgot to load the beverage cart, so it’s gonna be an extra 15 minutes delay.

  15. Delta began passenger air transportation in 1929. That has never been in doubt.

    They began as a company in 1925 killing bugs.

    As usual, DL uses other people’s crises to deliver solutions.

    and, Max, if UA has been around longer, then why haven’t they figured out how to generate as much revenue from their hubs as DL does.

    Here are the average domestic fares for the top competitive hubs (ranked by decreasing local market size)
    ORD – $414
    DEN 372
    ATL 442
    BOS 369
    EWR 429
    DFW 442
    SEA 393
    SFO 433
    PHX 389
    LGA 338 (perimeter restricted)
    JFK 417
    MSP 456 (hello)
    IAH 430
    PHL 429
    DTW 464
    DCA 382 (perimeter restricted, w/ exceptions)
    BWI 386
    MIA 370
    CLT 451
    SLC 471 (even bigger HELLO)

    How is it that DL managed to build 4 super hubs that generate far higher fares than anything anyone has but AA and UA haven’t used their supposed greater longevity to figure out what DL figured out?

    Mongolia and Greenland fares can’t hold a candle to what DL gets from its super hubs.

  16. Tim’s assertion that operating as a crop duster counts as starting an airline – because they eventually became an actual airline – would be like UA claiming, “Well… Walter Varney founded what became United… and he was born on December 26th, 1888… So we can track our start to December of 1888! Happy 136th anniversary!” Or it could be like American saying, “Even though we started flying as an airline in 1926, our first airplane was manufactured in 1924… so we ‘began’ earlier and hit 100 years LAST year!”

    Really, Tim. Especially when DELTA THEMSELVES tied their original origin to the start of when they started airline flying (75th anniversary in 2004, based on starting as an airline and first carrying passengers in 1929.) Yes, Delta can get a reset with NWA. But that still means this Oct 1st is “Happy 99th year as an airline”.

    Tim, you often bring good insights to the discussion, regardless of your biases towards everything Delta. But bending over backwards and trying to make history fit your narrative is just costing you credibility.

  17. right on, L737,
    and let’s all blow some bubbles for AA and UA when their times come.
    And AS will eventually too.
    Don’t leave them out.

    Any US airline that makes it to 2030 deserves lots of bubbles

  18. @Tim Dunn — Yeah, and jetBlue’s celebrating 25 years this year… so, gonna have to wait until 2100 for them! (@L737, ‘welcome to the world of tomorrow!’)

  19. How soon we forget that the first commercial passenger flight in the USA was conducted on May 23, 1926 (Salt Lake City to L.A. via L.V.) by Western Air Express (Western Airlines), which merged with DELTA.

  20. Eh…United put up signs in the Marshall Islands airport commemorating serving Micronesia for 50 years…when that was really Continental Micronesia. Airlines stretch the truth all the time…

  21. FWIW, the first U.S. scheduled passenger airline was the St. Petersburg–Tampa Airboat Line that operated two flights a day from January to May 1914, predating KLM by 5 years and the other surviving US airlines by at least 11 years, 12 years if you don’t stretch the truth.

    KLM is not the oldest still operating airline, it is the oldest airline still operating under its original name. (Koninklijke Luchtvaartmaatschappij for those who want to impess their friends.) Air France, British Airways, SAS, and Brussels Airways all have earlier corporate predecessors. Air France can be dated to 1909.

  22. @charles j — Wrong. “The world’s first scheduled commercial passenger flight took off on January 1, 1914, piloted by Tony Jannus from St. Petersburg to Tampa, Florida. The 23-minute flight in a Benoist XIV biplane marked the start of the St. Petersburg-Tampa Airboat Line, the first scheduled airline service.” Talk about a short flight. PIE-TPA, but on the water.

  23. @C_M gets it. I’d imagine @charles j was just trying to ‘umm ackchually’ the rest of us about Delta, but he failed. @Tim Dunn remains unvanquished! Huzzah!

  24. Well, what became Spirit was founded in 1964 as Clippert Trucking Company (and Ned owned a strip club too) so… happy 61 years Spirit!

  25. Ever heard the one about the perfect airliner would be designed by Lockheed, manufactured by Boeing and marketed by McDonnell Douglas? What Delta is best at is marketing. Bless their heart.

  26. actually, JL, DL is at the front of the pack in thinking strategically, esp. longer down the runway than its peers, and in executing.

    I would dare say that Airbus has been pretty good at sales which is how they got so far ahead of Boeing esp. during the past two dark second for Boeing.

    Just a reminder that United used to be part of Boeing.

  27. Yes, Boeing, United Air Lines and United Technologies all come from Boeing and that rich American aviation history. Crop dusting is cool too. Like I said, Delta’s preeminent competency is marketing which is very important. Bless their heart.

  28. @Tim Dunn @JL — Speaking of odd mergers and acquisitions… didn’t United used to own the hotel chain Westin, too? Likewise, Air France founded the hotel brand Le Meridien. Instead of blessing hearts, why don’t we ‘bless the rains down in Africa,’ since Delta and United are the only two US carriers with current nonstop service to the continent (you know, because American couldn’t handle it, not even to Morocco, which is quite lame for them.)

  29. JL,
    and yet you and everyone else can clearly see that DL manages to get far more revenue per passenger and market share out of its hubs which are comparable to UA’s

    DL has a much higher market share and average fares from DTW and MSP than ORD (includes all airlines); SLC has a whopping $100 per person average fare advantage over DEN; and ATL – which many try to downplay as “just a small local market” gets average domestic fares, correct me if I am wrong, higher than every UA hub that IAD which is much further down the list in market size.

    If marketing is what it takes to extract that kind of money out of people’s pockets, then why can’t AA and UA figure out how to do that?

    In fact, UA loves to tout its hubs in big metro areas but that comes at the cost of much more competition which means lower average fares – and less profits.

    AA has some very strong hubs in terms of average fares including CLT, DCA and DFW which they frequently say are their most profitable but CLT and DFW are operationally challenged and inefficient.

    The past matters far less than what a company does with what it has now – and DL has simply built a network that delivers well above average fares at its 4 interior US hubs which has allowed it to grow into competitive coastal markets which it has nurtured and is now moving deeper into more competitive markets including LAX-ORD and -HKG and building an AUS hub.

    and let’s remember that the US airline industry was deregulated less than 50 years ago so all of the big 4 (including WN) have had the same amount of time to build their networks and products to what they are.

    While it is interesting to argue about 100 years ago, what has happened over the past 50 years has shaped the airline industry in the US the most.

  30. Alan…as 1990 said, they are NOT. Yes, a couple of them have been with Delta for almost 60 years BUT…they continue passing recurrent training and maintain their schedule. To other naysayers, it’s always easier to pick on the top dog in any industry. Perfect? No, Delta is not perfect. Many can name numerous failures but the company tries to learn from and rectify those failures. High standards to get “in the door”…yes. Happy employees, yes. Customer service? Ranked at the top by JD Power. Management from the top down puts safety first. Treat the “family” with respect? Yes. EVERY executive is approachable…they regularly will ask someone… “Tell me what you don’t like!” They actually LISTEN to those who do the job. “If you have a better way of doing the job, let us know.” If adopted, Delta will give that employee a portion of any savings. “Here’s your ‘box’ for your job. Stay within the box BUT…if you have to go outside of the box, FIRST…safety first. Then..do what is right.” Promises made in bankruptcy…fulfilled on exit. If you don’t believe that…$10.4B in profit sharing on Valentine’s Day…about a 5 week paycheck for every eligible employee. The stock price continues to climb. The “parent company” was indeed founded in 1925. If Delta is so bad, then why are the jets full?

  31. TD says, “If marketing is what it takes to extract that kind of money out of people’s pockets, then why can’t AA and UA figure out how to do that?”

    UA has long had the best route structure in the world, but was cursed with incompetent management until Munoz, Kirby et al took over in 2016. Culture, networks and brands don’t change over night, but It is just a matter of time.

    UA: 1,050 aircraft, (228 WB), 187 WB/484 NB on order, 15.5 average fleet age
    DA: 992 aircraft, (177 WB), 28 WB/240 NB on order, 14.9 average fleet age
    AA: 1,000 aircraft, (134 WB), 22 WB/280 NB on order, 14.1 average fleet age

  32. JL,
    bigger is NOT better. UA and its internet fans seem to think that just flying more will work out better – but UA generates less revenue than DL despite flying 10% more ASMs.

    and AA and DL both generate more domestic revenue than UA does while UA does the reverse in international so it is simply a matter of focusing on the wrong things at UA for too long.

    UA thinks that it will gain additional domestic share but that has largely not been the case. UA’s hubs are simply in more competitive domestic markets than AA, DL and WN.

    and DL will order more aircraft – plus it has hundreds of aircraft on option. AA and DL manage to get better deals by doing smaller deals more often.

    and UA’s huge order book is partially a result of cashing in on Boeing compensation for delays which means that UA hasn’t gotten more aircraft sooner – DL has received more widebody aircraft in 2024 and will this year – but UA’s order book goes out much longer which just means that UA has no ability to gain any new aircraft deals for aircraft to be delivered much before about the mid 2030s.

    as for the widebody fleets, the A350-1000 will simply allow DL to do routes that UA can only dream about. ATL-DEL on an A350 will open markets while UA can only operate EWR-DEL. Even if UA cuts 787 capacity by more seats to around 225 passenger, DL will be ablet to fly just as far if not further with 90 more passengers and a whole lot more profit on the A350-1000

    The next five years will prove why it was a mistake for UA to keep pushing back the A350 order

  33. Sometimes, I just read these replies with amazement. It has a “my dad can beat your dad” feel to it. For the record. I really don’t care when AA, DL, or UA claims to have started. And, since there are multiple dimensions on which I evaluate a potential flight (cost, timing, layover time, on and on) there is never a situation where I can say I won’t fly XX or I’ll only fly YY of the legacy3.

  34. So hundreds of secret options and DL can do close in orders, but UA can’t because they have too many actual orders? Smaller orders at peak demand/wait times are less expensive than larger orders during the Covid pandemic when manufacturers were desperate for orders? Why bless your heart.

  35. JL,
    DL has enough orders for 4 solid years of deliveries and options for another 2 years beyond that.
    AA is similar if not a bit leaner.

    UA has more orders than all other US airlines combined.
    They do not have the bandwidth – financially or in terms of growth – to take on much more than they have on order w/o pushing their order book out further or converting some of their existing orders to other models.

    and airlines do report ownership costs to the DOT. DL’s ownership costs are lower than AA and UA which says DL does get better deals.

    and, no, Boeing wasn’t desperate for orders during covid; they weren’t delivering aircraft if you recall. Boeing offered United (and other carriers) compensation for the delays; United, like a kid in a candy store, had to go spend the credits it had been given which is why they have such massive orders.

    comes to mind,
    yes, it is amazing how much some people need to “win” on the internet but can’t see the big picture.
    Some people can’t grasp that the purpose of a for-profit business is not to accumulate the most assets and, in the case of airlines, fly to the most cities on the most routes, but to generate the most profit. THAT is what profit motivated businesses hold as their highest priority.

    WN used to hold that title., Delta has figured out how to run the best business among US airlines for at least a decade and a half.

  36. TD say, “Boeing wasn’t desperate for orders during covid; they weren’t delivering aircraft if you recall.”

    Poor TD. Orders are for the future. Manufacturers seek to fill their order book and plan production levels ahead of time. Why bless your heart.

    As Warren Buffett says, “be fearful when others are greedy and to be greedy only when others are fearful.” Kirby nailed it.

  37. UA has more aircraft on order than the entire rest of the US airline industry combined.

    UA didn’t get an advantage by ordering massive amounts of aircraft during covid and won’t now.

    AA and DL are top-tier customers for Airbus and Boeing who will deliver.

    UA ordered massive amounts of aircraft because Boeing gave them huge amounts of customer compensation – but UA didn’t get any faster deliveries than anyone else.

    apparently being a former Boeing subsidiary doesn’t give UA a leg up.

  38. “UA didn’t get an advantage by ordering massive amounts of aircraft during covid and won’t now.”

    “apparently being a former Boeing subsidiary doesn’t give UA a leg up.”

    “but UA didn’t get any faster deliveries than anyone else.”

    Goes without saying, but you truly have no idea about this, Tim. You’re just making things up. You have no idea whether Boeing or Airbus moved delivery slots around for UA, you have no idea the pricing UA gets from Boeing and Airbus vs AA/DL much less whether UA got a pricing discount by placing huge orders during covid (though given the IAG Max10 order during the same time, it’s not hard to imagine that Boeing was giving some good deals out).

    Seriously, stop just making random Sh*t up when you have no idea.

  39. @MaxPower — No one should ‘shut’ anything. This banter is top-notch!

    @Tim Dunn — Don’t stop, sir. Keep going. Keep…Climbing!

  40. well, yes, Max,
    we do know that UA doesn’t have a fleet ownership cost advantage according to DOT data – the kind you don’t like.

    DL has long had a knack for getting better deals with airframe and engine manufacturers It is why Gary says that DL knows how to negotiate for 50-50 and keep the hyphen.

    UA cashed in its customer compensation from Boeing to place its massive orders; whether you understand that or not doesn’t matter, Max.

    Kirby himself said that he thought that by locking up the 787 order book would stop competitors from being able to buy new jets.

    Word remains that DL could be ordering 787s for delivery before 2030 which would be right in the middle of UA’s orderbook – in other words, UA got no advantage.

    100 or 50 years doesn’t change reality that DL manages to outsmart its competitors.

  41. TD says, “DL could be ordering 787s for delivery before 2030”

    Interesting. UA is getting 30 more 787s delivered by YE 2026 with another 112 coming.

  42. “How is it that DL managed to build 4 super hubs that generate far higher fares than anything anyone has but AA and UA haven’t used their supposed greater longevity to figure out what DL figured out?

    Mongolia and Greenland fares can’t hold a candle to what DL gets from its super hubs.”

    Also, Tim. How did I miss this?! Not you finally admitting Delta’s profitability comes from its monopoly hubs (just like delta says themselves)?! wow. How many years has it taken for you to admit that?!
    But you are right. It’s pretty amazing Delta takes monopoly hubs to make these profits while UA doesn’t have anything like Delta’s core hubs yet still is easily close to Delta profitability.

  43. Gary’s latest article shows why UA ordering hundreds of MAXs with deliveries into the 2030s could be a bad move as Boeing rolls out a MAX replacement in the 2030s and Airbus likely stretches the A220 to hit at the heart of the MAX.

    but there are no widebody replacement models on the horizon. UA has has the oldest widebody fleet among large global carriers. DL is retiring 767s – and reportedly accelerating their retirement. If Boeing wants to see 787s in DL’s fleet as replacements for the 767s, they can come up with a half dozen slots/year even though Kirby said that he was ordering a bunch of airplanes to block competitors from being able to get their aircraft – what a patently foolish and ridiculous thing to say!

    and DL has received more new widebodies in 2024 and will do so in 2025 than any other US airline

  44. TD: “DL has received more new widebodies in 2024 and will do so in 2025 than any other US airline”

    Yep, and the lead time for the A35X’s will end up being three years and A330neo’s over four years

    Year: UA WB/DL WB
    2022: 218/156
    2023: 220/162
    2024: 223/170
    2025: 232*/180*
    2026: 258*/186*

    *Projected year end totals

  45. I am not sure what your point is but I never said that I expected the 787 to arrive before 2029 if they were ordered today.
    I don’t know the delivery dates for the Airbus widebody option aircraft but I suspect they are in the 2028-30 timeframe. The 35Ks are apparently delayed because of the increased fuel tank system that most operators are opting for – the same as on the Qantas aircraft. It is that system which will give the 35K unbeatable range.

    and you still can’t grasp that size doesn’t mean anything. It is how those assets are used. If you would spend 1/4 of the time telling us why UA underperforms DL financially (you have to admit there is a problem first) as you do bragging about size, you might begin to grasp what the real issues are.
    DL simply generates revenue and profits more efficiently and effectively than any other US airline. DL might have had a headstart over other airlines but they largely perfected their revenue and profit maximization model over the past 15 years.

  46. TD: “size doesn’t mean anything”
    TD: “DL has received more new widebodies in 2024 and will do so in 2025 than any other US airline”

  47. @Tim Dunn — Project Sunrise! QF, 35K, SYD-JFK/CDG/LHR, +20 hours, late 2026… maybe. In 2019, Qantas did those test flights with the 789. Interestingly, unlike SQ’s 359ULR for their NYC-SIN flights, (19 hours, only Premium Economy recliners and Business lie-flat), QF is going with 140 Economy seats in 3-3-3, which is brutal for those folks.

  48. I did write a bullet by bullet response to this response but I’ll summarize, Tim.

    “we do know that UA doesn’t have a fleet ownership cost advantage according to DOT data – the kind you don’t like.” — DOT data you’re referencing certainly does not tell you ANYTHING about the price paid for new aircraft from Airbus or Boeing. It’s laughable that you even try to bring that up to back up your point. Frankly, it’s beyond dumb that you think there’s no volume discount or unique pricing among the US3.

    “UA cashed in its customer compensation from Boeing to place its massive orders; whether you understand that or not doesn’t matter, Max.”
    Dear Dear, Tim. No one said they didn’t. You’re just doing your normal thing to misdirect and say something no one disagrees with. That also has nothing to do with the overall price received vs AA or Delta. You’re also forgetting to include the potential earlier pricing and contractual deals giving customer compensation that led to better deals from that alone.

    “Kirby himself said that he thought that by locking up the 787 order book would stop competitors from being able to buy new jets.
    Word remains that DL could be ordering 787s for delivery before 2030 which would be right in the middle of UA’s orderbook – in other words, UA got no advantage.”

    I think we all have yet to see any 787 order from AA or DL since United’s massive order of 787s so… while generally I do agree with the premise that Boeing and Airbus will move mountains for blue chip customers, it’s hard to prove Scott Kirby wrong at the moment. And it’s also easy to imagine he would say something like knowing full well contractual terms of his order. It would definitely NOT be the first time a US3 airline has put specific ‘anyone but my rivals’ language into a order slot timeline or pricing piece. Also, even if Delta got a 787 slot delivery in 2029, at best, Scott Kirby would still be correct — he kept AA and DL from new 787 orders for nearly 8 years and we’re still basing that assumption off your best hope for a Delta order that hasn’t materialized.

    “100 or 50 years doesn’t change reality that DL manages to outsmart its competitors.”

    Except for full up bankruptcy, multiple hub closures (to include closing the NRT hub, losing the JAL bid to AA, and mired in an unprofitable SEA hub for yearsw now) and I don’t think anyone considers the L-1011 a smart move by Delta in retrospect. 😉

    But live your dream, Tim.

  49. Max,
    other airlines have ordered 787s since UA ordered with deliveries starting before 2030.
    And UA has had the A350 on order for about a decade so could have had them as well.
    UA simply did not get an advantage in locking out other buyers by placing such a big order; it is beyond naive and foolish for Kirby or you or anyone else to think that UA OR ANY AIRLINE could place a large enough order to block other airlines from having slots.
    No manufacturer that can sell to hundreds of customers is going to tie up their production line to the benefit of one customer. Not Airbus. Not Boeing. Nor for United or any other airlne.

    We don’t know the price for individual orders but DL has a fleetwide aircraft ownership cost advantage to AA and UA.

    No one doubts that UA got a discount. The question is how much discount they could have gotten compared to what Boeing offers now.

    We know you have no self-control but let’s see if DL places an order for the 787 and, if they do, if the first aircraft is delivered by 2030 or before the last UA 787 delivery.

    And, I’m not even going to touch your last comment other than to note that the L1011 was a heck of a much better designed aircraft; there was no Delta 232

  50. @Tim Dunn, @MaxPower — You watchin’ this Senate committee hearing on airline competition? Barry Biffle, CEO of Frontier, just threw shade at Scott Kirby for his recent comments that United ‘allows’ other carriers to carry passengers. Reminds me of Gary’s recent post from September 23, ‘Only 2 Premium Airlines Can Exist’ Says United’s CEO. Shots fired, fellas!

  51. TD: “No manufacturer that can sell to hundreds of customers is going to tie up their production line to the benefit of one customer.”

    Nobody said that was the case. It is not one airline. BA had 993 total unfulfilled 787 orders with 2,199 787 firm orders before Turkish Airline’s recent order. The lead time for normal customers for wide body aircraft is five years +. I am sure DL can do better than that or buy delivery positions for more $, but they aren’t getting them tomorrow.

    TD: “No one doubts that UA got a discount. The question is how much discount they could have gotten compared to what Boeing offers now.”

    Ya think? And they get compensation for all the late deliveries. Advantage UA.

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