Delta will charge you 425,000 SkyMiles one-way Atlanta to Santiago, Chile in business class on April 17th.
This isn’t a peak day. This isn’t a day where the flight is full. It’s a day where they’re looking to unload business class seats cheap. All of their inventory is wide open to sell their cheapest fares.
Not a single seat is currently reserved in the business class cabin.
And Delta will happily make award space on this flight available to its partners. So if you’re an Air France KLM Flying Blue member, the same flight that Delta charges 425,000 miles to SkyMiles members can be booked for just 90,000 Flying Blue points.
Delta charges its own members 4.7 times the miles that Air France frequent flyers pay for the same Delta flight. Delta does not offer a lot of saver awards on its flights in business class. But when it does, these seats can be booked at a reasonable cost by frequent flyers all over the world – as long as they are not trying to use Delta’s own miles.
Let’s not forget that the Vice President in charge of Delta SkyMiles says they don’t even need to try to offer strong redemption value (“we are not necessarily trying to play the game with customers”) customers keep earning miles and taking their credit card even though they intentionally offer poor value to members.
The good news is that unless you’re hub captive to Delta, you may not care about SkyMiles status. And if you’re not letting SkyMiles status trump the value of the points you’re collecting, it’s easy to earn better miles than the loyalty trash coming out of Atlanta even if you want to spend your miles to fly Delta.
Fortunately, Air France KLM’s Flying Blue is a partner of all the major transferable currencies (Chase, American Express, Citibank, Capital One, Wells Fargo, Bilt). That makes it easy to build up a balance with Air France to redeem these flights – and you don’t have to commit to them until you’re ready to book.
I said never again, but I took out a Delta biz gold (no lifetime language) card. I need to fly MCO-BOS in J, they want 41k for cardholders – so about a penny a point.
It was 90k points for a modest spend ($6k in 6 months) with first year AF waived. It was the latter that tipped me to do it.
Offer no longer around, we’ll have to wait for another meltdown.
@ Gary — Delta crooks in action.
Of course, AA tries to copy everything DL does. Therefore, AA’s USA-India Business seats are currently on offer for 300K miles one-way. This used to be 70K miles.
Premium airlines charge premium!
This is the airline that doesn’t allow its own elites into its lounges when flying internationally in coach, but welcomes elites from its partner airlines into the lounges when flying internationally in coach.
Then again, I just flew NRT-HAN-SAI (Siem Reap) and used 40k each for a pair of business class seats on Vietnam Airlines. Fab food, service and lie-flat seats on the first flight (5 hrs, 15 min); second flight, meh, but under 2 hours.
Third time in last 5 years that I’ve used SkyPesos for reasonable flights on partners. Haven’t used them for Delta flights in I don’t know how long.
Shhhh!
Delta hub captive here
Using Flying Blue is the only way we can fly direct internationally using miles to places given the horrific state of Sky Miles
Sept 2023 Delta priced out a one way trip MSP to Paris for 700,000 points.
Only a matter of time before Flying Blue is lost to us.
Of note
United has massively increased prices the last year as well. Not as bad as Delta. But now I commonly see 300k one way to Europe in J and rarely see anything less than 150k unless it’s the worst itinerary imaginable
@AKTCHI,
Just flew last week from JFK to DEL on AA’s mediocre product in J for 55k aadvantage miles so sometimes they do make some seats available for much lower amount of miles.
Have also noticed they sometimes game where if book a connecting leg preceeding the actual nonstop flight it’s available for much lower amount of miles as well. Have noticed in past days like where originating in PHL or BOS to DEL via connecting in JFK was available for 55k to 70k miles for business class while searching for the direct nonstop from JFK to DEL priced at something like 135k miles!
This is why when I finally burned SkyMiles this year, I was happy. Now I have only 30k miles left after burning.
Last year, DL was pricing PNH-ICN-CGK in J at 40k miles one way, around .05usd/mile. I had to jump on that opportunity! Avenging those souls who spent 300k on a 6 hour flight, lol! Got to experience Korean and Garuda on what is basically a roundtrip ticket for a one way price!
I realize Delta is brutal w awards (esp D1) but just rebooked a trip for SEA-TPE in Feb. wife and I are taking a cruise out of Taipei so used 66,000 Skymiles each for 2 Premium Economy (whatever DL calls them) seats w plan to pay for upgrade if in $1000-$1250 range each (14 hours flight). Today rebooked in D1 for 83,000 each so net was 17,000 Skymiles (or $170) to get confirmed D1. Had to go out 2 days earlier but I’m sure we will find things to do in Taipei. Great deal. Now can have her compare D1 on outbound SEA-TPE to Singapore J from SIN-JFK on way home
Can’t believe Delta doesn’t believe offering the same cabin on the same aircraft for 5X more than its own SkyTeam partners doesn’t damage the SkyMiles brand and value proposition. You can bet American Express cares.
Maybe Ed will also blame the outgoing COO for this, too…
What? Nothing from you-know-who telling us the typical Delta flyer doesn’t care and doesn’t notice that others are flying for 1/6 the miles on the same plane in the same class……..
Unless someone has Stockholm Syndrome why would you chase Skypsos and status with DL ?
Delta always gouges on miles. They wanted over 130000 miles to fly RT from. MGM to TUS. Ticket would have been $600. I fly delta just about weekly and it’s taken me a good year to get 130000 points. They really need to lower the mileage threshold.
That’s why I went back to United. Delta’s international biz class redemptions are exorbitant.
How about everyone post a link to this story at least once each day on Delta social media, with the message “Delta hates its customers”.
Bend over sky mile FF fools
We gotcha!
Well they could always be like United and charge about the same amount of miles and block awards seats to their star alliance partners
You’re all a bunch of ungrateful bastards. Behold Delta’s brilliance and industry leading services.
Nothing new. DL spends money on the flying experience, especially premium one, not on the frequent flyer program.
Its financials show that they have been correct all along. After all, they’re an airline, and people prefer screens today to some vague “miles” promise of a flight in years.
Unfortunately, I’m hub-captive to Delta. I have about 1 or 2 more years of hardcore flying in my life before it’s time to settle down after being a road warrior for the better part of a decade. I expect to hit 2 million miles by the end of 2025 or early 2026. Once that happens, I’m done playing the game. 2 million miles is my goal. I haven’t used my Delta-branded Reserve AmEx since last fall, when Delta gutted its frequent flyer status tiers and changed the way you requalify. I’ve kept the card only for the companion certificate. I have around 1.2 million miles in my Delta account. I use them for incidental upgrades or pay-with-miles. Delta’s changes have also resulted in me flying less. No longer do I book a trip with an extra segment since how much I fly or the distance that I fly no longer matters. I also don’t take unnecessary work trips since it doesn’t matter anymore. It’s nice to be home for 7 or 10 days between trips whereas previously I used to only be home for 2 or 3 days between trips, week in and week out. And with no rollover, there is no incentive for me to fly Delta as soon as I re-qualify for status.
DL does this with coach tix too. My son booked a JFK-VCE flight on DL this summer for about 25,000 flying blue points when DL wanted appx. 70k skymiles for same flight.
If that seating chart is accurate the equipment is one of the ex-LATAM 777s, so they aren’t even pretending that you’ll get a Delta One Suite. What seems more typical on that route is that it’s a D1 Suite when you book, and when you actually check in it’s been swapped. Much less privacy on the 777s though the seat is otherwise nice – wide, with great legroom.
Fleet consistency in J is yet one more area where this “premium” airline lags AA and UA. It’s a problem with Q Suites too though not so much to and from the US as on other routes.
I redeemed my last 100K with Delta to attend a wedding this fall I probably otherwise would have not spent $900 to attend. Not a great redemption in dollar value but worth it for the event and to be done with Delta miles.
I finally moved away from Minneapolis and Deltas captive pricing to a competitive market and I am flying first class in other airlines for less than I paid for economy on Delta out of Minny. No longer playing that silly miles whore game.
American does the same for flights to Australia for example.Even worse -Charging 400K+ while it’s not even possible to see much cheaper partner airline seats on AA.CON so forcing you into this insulting redemption option. Disgraceful.
hard to believe that someone that calls themselves a thought leader in travel doesn’t understand a few basic points:
1. the price an airline charges for a seat – regardless of which airline – is based on how full they expect the cabin to be and not how full it is now. April 17, 2025 is 9 months away. ATL-SCL is a hub to hub joint venture route. The flight will very likely be full.
2. different retailers charge different prices for the same product; that is not a surprise whether we are talking about candy bars at WalMart vs a convenience store or air travel
The reason which a thought leader should understand is that DL makes far more money than any other airline anywhere on its credit card and loyalty program so the profits come from those that continue to join the SkyMiles program and spend on travel.
DL also carries more corporate travel than any other US airline and the Amex card is often specified in those large contracts.
AF/KLM make far less on their credit cards because of lower interchange fees so use awards as ways to entice people to join their loyalty program.
It’s all basic stuff that any thought leader should understand.
I just had to use 20k miles to fly from a Delta hostage hub to MSP….its an hour flight, gate to gate.
To pay for it outright was 200$. Ugh.
Interesting. I’m a perennial Diamond-miler, also hub-captive, but I haven’t used frequent-flyer points to pay for anything in years. Always considered them worthless and something to use in an emergency. These posts confirm that SkyMeters are worthless. Delta will never ever have my loyalty. I will fly anybody but Delta when given the choice. Worthless frequent flyer points, surly FAs, poorly trained pilots, filthy planes, arrogant CEOs, and diarrhea running down the aisles. Now, I see they’re even killing their own employees.
Born and raised in Atlanta but damned if I am captive. Do not have any Delta credit cards whatsoever but I do use flying blue miles to book Delta metal. Other than that frontier spirit are just fine. I never cease to be amazed at the number of people in the Atlanta area that I see at the checkout counter with a Delta credit card which has to be the worst value ever. I even saw a guy pay for his dental treatment that could barely walk look like his days were really numbered yet he was using a Delta gold SkyMiles credit card. Most folks in my opinion are either too stupid or too lazy to do the math.
@Tim Dunn – your response is full of non-sequiturs.
“. the price an airline charges for a seat – regardless of which airline – is based on how full they expect the cabin to be and not how full it is now. April 17, 2025 is 9 months away. ATL-SCL is a hub to hub joint venture route. The flight will very likely be full.”
You seem to misunderstand. Delta *IS OFFERING SAVER AWARD INVENTORY ON THIS FLIGHT* presumably not expecting it to be full. They are offering it to all of their partners. ANYONE SPENDING MILES IN A PARTNER PROGRAM GETS THE SPACE FOR LESS.
Delta only ‘overcharges’ their own members. If you are spending Virgin miles or Air France miles you get it for a small fraction of the price.
“different retailers charge different prices for the same product; that is not a surprise whether we are talking about candy bars at WalMart vs a convenience store or air travel”
YES! And smart consumers learn the difference in pricing, learn who represents a poor value, and factor that into their buying decisions!
“DL makes far more money than any other airline anywhere on its credit card and loyalty program so the profits come from those that continue to join the SkyMiles program and spend on travel.”
– Delta earns more revenue from their cobrand from competitors
– Not ‘far more’
– And they appear to have topped out with that, which is why they still talk about $10b as long-term goal for the partnership… which was the pre-inflation goal in 2019, meaning they’ve quietly ratcheted down expectations 20%. They also missed their $7b target for last year, even though it was set pre-inflation/pre-pandemic.
Delta has historically been able to outperform while offering lower value – as their own SkyMiles VP explains! – because of brand, reliability, and fortress hub strength.
But what you miss, what I wrote, is that those living outside fortress hubs who have a choice should understand the value proposition of spending on a Delta card product when not prioritizing SkyMiles elite status (i.e., it is a strategic blunder to do so).
“AF/KLM make far less on their credit cards because of lower interchange fees so use awards as ways to entice people to join their loyalty program.”
No, it’s not that they “use awards as a ways to entice people to join their loyalty program” they use fair value awards to entice transfers by U.S. members from bank programs to capture some of the higher interchange business here. BUT THIS IS STILL DELTA AWARD SPACE BEING OFFERED AT LIQUIDATION INVENTORY that Air France charges its usual pricing for, and that VIRGIN WHICH IS 49% OWNED BY DELTA AND DOESN’T OFFER THE SAME VALUE AS AIR FRANCE GENERALLY charges their lower pricing for. So does Aeromexico and Korean!
It is only Delta sticking it to their own members.
@deltarocks,,,, you missed the point. You can still fly a so-called premium airline for almost 1/5 of the miles. Can you grasp that?
Gary,
once again you prove that you don’t understand basic airline economics (or any free market economics for that matter).
EVERY product or service in a free market economy is priced based on what the market will bear.
As much as some people tell us that they don’t use SkyMiles, the evidence is that DAL’s program is growing as fast or faster than its US competitors – in part because DL succeeds at winning corporate travel better than its peers.
Plenty of people love to talk about DL’s “monopoly” hubs while ignoring that AA, AS,UA and WN all have hubs where they control as high of a percentage of traffic as DL does as its “monopoly” hubs.
The size limit of the SkyMiles program is related to the size of the airline. DL simply recognizes that it cannot get premium pricing above a pre-determined share of US air travel – which also is why UAL’s dreams of aggressive domestic growth won’t work – they will dilute their own revenue in their own hubs even if AA, DL and WN are “willing” to allow UA to take domestic share in non-hub markets that are up for grabs.
US carrier loyalty programs are simply more valuable; DL’s is at the top of the list. Feel free to list the dollar contribution from each US airline’s loyalty and credit card program – EXACTLY AS IT COMES FROM SEC STATEMENTS – and not full of your manipulations
Flying Blue has simply positioned itself as a “value” loyalty program within SkyMiles. Air France/KLM pays for the seats it sells and the revenue it contributes to the joint venture as the JV divides up revenue. AF/KL simply is willing to pay DL less for seats than DL could get in order to sell those same seats on its own because AF sees more value in capturing some of the long-term DL customers in the Flying Blue program. but FB cannot gain most of the local US market that DL has access to.
Again, it’s all basic principles that any thought leader should understand.
and it is no different than the why there are other options to undercut the highest revenue loyalty programs in every alliance – including often AC vs. UA Mileage Plus.
@Tim Dunn – “once again you prove that you don’t understand basic airline economics (or any free market economics for that matter).” I would suggest that even the most basic research would suggest my bona fides in ‘free market economics’ rather outstrips your own.
“EVERY product or service in a free market economy is priced based on what the market will bear.”
Airline loyalty programs are shielded from liability by the federal government, that’s an artifice of corporatism rather than the market. Nonetheless, this is not in any way a response to what I’ve written.
I simply suggest that Delta has succeeded in spite of offering poor value for their miles, not because of it. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THE HEAD OF SKYMILES HAS SAID AS WELL. And my point here is to publicize the poor value, to help consumers make informed decisions.
You go off on tangents about how it’s smart for Delta to do so. I’m not sure that *AT THE CURRENT MARGIN* that is correct anymore. They and American Express got scared and desperate last fall in response to consumer backlash against announced changes. The program and its revenue growth has scaled back markedly, based on public comments from Delta executives.
So while they have done well in the last few years relative to American and United, it’s unclear that will continue to be the case. And if it is, that’s easily attributable to “in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man…”
“As much as some people tell us that they don’t use SkyMiles, the evidence is that DAL’s program is growing as fast or faster than its US competitors – in part because DL succeeds at winning corporate travel better than its peers.”
Here you actually… agree with me… that SkyMiles growth is attributable to things other than the value of SkyMiles. So what is even your point? Maybe you don’t realize you have no disagreements, and your verbal Montezuma’s Revenge has more to do with ‘vibes’ than substance – this seems critical of Delta and you reflexively cannot abide that?
“US carrier loyalty programs are simply more valuable; DL’s is at the top of the list. Feel free to list the dollar contribution from each US airline’s loyalty and credit card program – EXACTLY AS IT COMES FROM SEC STATEMENTS – and not full of your manipulations”
As I’ve written, and you’ve suggested, that valuation comes from co-brand card deals [which got richer (1) when Costco left Amex, and (2) as airlines consolidated]. Foreign carrier programs in markets without rich interchange of course are going to be less valuable. What on earth does that have to do with any argument you’re trying to make here?
“Flying Blue has simply positioned itself as a “value” loyalty program within SkyMiles. Air France/KLM pays for the seats it sells and the revenue it contributes to the joint venture as the JV divides up revenue. AF/KL simply is willing to pay DL less for seats than DL could get in order to sell those same seats on its own because AF sees more value in capturing some of the long-term DL customers in the Flying Blue program. but FB cannot gain most of the local US market that DL has access to.”
This is a DELTA decision to release saver inventory to partners at very low prices, while charging their own members extremely high prices.
it really doesn’t matter what you THINK, Gary.
It matters what happens on the bottom line which is what drives DL and AF’s decisions and every other airline.
you JUST published a story about VN and SkyTeam. There are backdoor ways to get status and benefits in EVERY alliance.
The fact that you can’t or don’t explain the real economics of why those types of things exist and yet call yourself a thought leader is why you get challenged.
Nobody has a problem understanding why a candy bar costs more at a convenience store than WalMart.
You can’t seem to understand or explain the actual economics behind why loyalty programs work when there are abundant facts that any thought leaders should not only understand but be able to explain esp. in the case of a route like ATL-SCL.
I think there’s a lot of uneducated people flying Delta because they used to get value there and haven’t realized yet that they don’t. Or they actually do more than the rest of us, because they are such a high tier. I know a person like this. I finally got him to get the CSR which he likes and uses sometimes, but won’t add another card even when I tell him he could earn 1.5-2x on general spend. I get it if people are busy and don’t have time to learn about this stuff, but when you tell him and he doesn’t want to be bothered? Weird Delta loyalty there.
This is simple accounting. The more miles required to buy a ticket, the less of a liability they appear as in your books. And selling seats to your partners bets you cash, so you want to keep your prices to their elites comparable to what those elites get on other airlines to get that cash.
You can keep your own prices high because you can also make sure your miles don’t get your elites anything on other airlines too so you don’t have to pay cash in the other direction.
Loyalty to anything is irrational, Cindi. that’s the point.
and, yes, Delta gets more revenue per seat mile than any other US airline. They carry more corporate traffic than any other airline. They don’t need to compete with their loyalty program for the lowest tier of passenger and yet they keep growing the program – in part because they continue to win share from other airlines.
Every alliance has players that undercut other players.
These are all facts that Gary should understand and write about.
Look up Delta’s SkyMiles leadership team. The program was handed over to ex-finance leaders who do what they are best at: cost cutting in the pursuit of short-term result. But short-term thinking is fatal to loyalty programs and to businesses.
Tim is right that Delta can get away with these devaluations in the near term because they only have two real competitors who have their own set of challenges. But over the long term competitors will match Delta’s already largely no longer superior reliability and product offerings, and it will similarly take Delta years to undo the ongoing damage to its loyalty program as loyalty strategies and their consequences take years to fully play out.
Renewal for my Delta Amex was next month and just canceled it. Delta points have become useless for international travel. Goodbye, Delta.
Disloyalty,
and yet what has happened is that American and United have degraded their mileage products just as Delta has done – and yet Delta still leads the industry in the amount of REVENUE contribution from its loyalty and credit card programs.
@ Tim — For the bajillionth time. No here cares about Delta’s revenues. They are unethical for the way they have screwed over their loyal customers. Yes, United is just about as bad, but AA still offers outsized value though mileage redemptions.
Gene,
well, Delta DOES care about its revenue – as does AA about Its revenue and UA about its revenue.
Just because you think the world revolves around you and what you can get – which is the basis of why Gary and other loyalty program blogs exist – if you fail to understand why airlines do what they do, you will live in a perpetual loop of frustration and anger – which seems precisely where you are.
The fact that DL gets the most revenue from its loyalty program of any airline in the world and AA and UA have repeatedly copied DL’s strategies says that DL is leading the industry for better or worse.
I never said you have to like what DL is doing but I am smart enough to know that understanding why things happens goes a long ways to figuring out how to live with those realities which include everything from why a glass falls off the table to why 2 gas stations right next to each other have different prices for the same gallon of unleaded gas.
@ Tim — If you don’t like what these blogs deliver, please wirte your own.
@Tim Dunn “The fact that DL gets the most revenue from its loyalty program of any airline in the world and AA and UA have repeatedly copied DL’s strategies says that DL is leading the industry for better or worse.”
This is highly misleading.
– most revenue, but not by a lot, and slowing growth
– not the highest margins
– and the revenue gain isn’t because of the low value they deliver, but because of things unrelated to the loyalty program that drive its success (brand, operational reliability, market position in key cities)
And most of the ‘copying of Delta’ happened starting a decade ago, much less lately, and pointed more to the failures of competitors than the success out of Atlanta.
well no, Gary, it isn’t misleading at all and it is all based on easily verifiable facts.
I have exhorted you OVER AND OVER AND OVER again to post actual verifiable data comparing the economics of at least the big 3 loyalty programs since they have similar disclosures – BUT YOU REFUSE TO DO THAT because you want to throw in your assumptions.
As long as you refuse to do a true factual side by side comparison, your ability to intelligently and accurately discuss loyalty programs will be seen as biased.
But let’s be clear that you really don’t want to discuss facts because your entire blog is about blowing things out of proportion and injecting innuendos in order to generate readership. Facts are boring. Distortions and opinions are salacious.
@Tim Dunn – I’ve posted all of this, no matter how may times you say I haven’t, and it’s all data that the airlines have revealed to investors themselves.
please provide a link to where you have provided a side by side FACTUAL comparison of the economics of the big 3 loyalty programs based on facts they provide and without any assumptions on your or anyone else’s part.
You don’t want to post facts because they would deflate your ability to post opinions.
@Tim Dunn, you seem to have entirely glossed over my comment regarding loyalty being a lagging performance metric. Peoples behavior changes over time. Also, DL revenues from AmEx are just one piece of the loyalty performance pie. Is SkyMiles driving incremental flight activity? Spend? Ancillary? Etc. Are these revenues driving profitability? Are they doing so on a per SkyMiles member basis or just a byproduct of scale? Are they gaining or losing members and cardholders? If so who are the members being lost and gained? Are they replaceable? Most of this is internal data which prevents us from truly comparing performance versus competitors, so please spare me any additional cherry-picked SEC filing line items.
I can go on but the ultimate point is that for customers who care about loyalty, and millions of people do, loyalty devaluations will eventually come back to haunt you especially if competitors do not follow you down the path. AA’s co brand situation is also a bit of a mess between Citi and Barclays but I expect that will be cleaned up and agreements renegotiated soon. Lets check back in 2026 and see what excuses you can muster then. DL’s product and relaibility is no longer the differentiator it once was.
Lastly just because it makes short term business sense does not mean it makes long term business sense. Moreover, just because it makes business sense over any time period doesnt mean anyone has to like it. We understand there is some ambiguous “reason” behind the scenes. But if the long trail of bankruptcies and mergers has taught us anything it is that airline management rarely understands its customers or what truly drives value and LOYALTY.
disloyalty,
I didn’t gloss over you.
The reality is that AA and UA have followed and are following DL’s loyalty program changes.
You and others can talk about the impact if only one company changes their loyalty program but that isn’t happening.
DL might be the furthest down the path but they still manage to generate the most revenue from their loyalty program of the big 3 no matter if Gary doesn’t want to show the data that says that.
Many of your questions were answered when the big 3 mortgaged their FF programs during covid but they don’t have to refresh that data so you (and Gary) might not ever see the data again.
And the fundamental issue is that you and others see loyalty programs as something a company owes you while companies see loyalty programs as a means to keep you loyal and to spend more money. Now that the US airline industry is consolidated around 3 global carriers and only 2 of those are really competitive and profitable in global markets as well as in corporate travel, there is less and less incentive for companies to use loyalty programs as a tool to retain customers and more as a carrot to get you hooked.
I am not at all saying that reality should make anyone happy but it is reality.
It is also why loyalty programs at most retailers such as grocery stores offer next to no value while you might get something from Best Buy which does operate in a much more competitive market segment that is driven by discretionary spending.
Delta, quite frankly, can give away less of its product as rewards because it is still doing the best job of generating revenue and giving away less award travel than AA and UA right now. AA and UA are just as interested in filling their seats with the revenue that DL is carrying and want to reduce what they give away – which is just what any rational person would do.