Scott Mayerowitz reports that a United flight was diverted today when a fight broke out onboard. One passenger was using the ‘knee defender’ to stop the passenger in front from reclining their seat.
The flight from Newark to Denver diverted to Chicago, where the TSA deemed it “a customer service issue.” The flight continued to Denver and arrived 98 minutes late.
The fight started when the male passenger, seated in a middle seat of row 12, used the Knee Defender to stop the woman in front of him from reclining while he was on his laptop…
A flight attendant asked him to remove the device and he refused. The woman then stood up, turned around and threw a cup of water at him, the official says. That’s when United decided to land in Chicago. The two passengers were not allowed to continue to Denver.
Is reclining your seat (in coach) is a right or a privilege?
- Is it something you’re entitled to do independent of the wishes of the passenger behind you? Or something you do only to the extent it doesn’t inconvenience them?
- What if you want to sleep and they want to eat or work on their laptop?
The problem can actually be worse in domestic first class if the seats there have greater recline but only marginally more legroom. (I’m still happier in first class than coach, even when the passenger in front of me reclines! And some American seats recline into the seat’s own space, making this a non-issue.)
Ironically, in today’s incident the passengers were seated in economy plus — with extra legroom!
I believe that reclining is the passenger’s right.
- The seat reclines (except on Spirit and Allegiant!)
- You control your own seat.
In an environment surrounded by masses of people it’s even nice to pretend no one else exists.
It’s even better to take politeness into account.
- Don’t recline during mealtime.
- Try not to recline unless it serves a real purpose.
Do you need to recline if you aren’t trying to sleep, and you don’t have back issues? If you do need to recline, try to recline less rather than more.
The Knee Defender is a rubber clamp that an airline passenger can use to prevent the seat in front from being reclined. It hasn’t sold well, and was initially banned by American and Continental and now by all major US airlines. The fact that the device was banned tells me there’s a norm against preventing passengers from reclining their seats.
Interestingly, a real fight broke out over the use of a knee defender and the government doesn’t ban it – the airlines do. And yet the mere perceived annoyance of inflight use of cell phones is spurring the government to action, fearing that airlines won’t manage the issue well themselves (even though it’s legal in much of the world without fights breaking out).
I was once in coach flying Cleveland – Los Angeles. I paid a young child, with mother’s consent, $5 not to recline her seat. I got four hours of work on my laptop as a result, a great investment of $5. In that case the initial allocation of property rights belonged to the child and we found a Coasian bargain.
So is reclining a right or a privilege? How do you handle reclining your seat?
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The seat reclines for a reason, it’s a fu**in right. Airlines that sacrifice pitch for recline remove the reclining mechanism or fly ATRs. If it ‘s available it’s meant to be used. Probably the most useless and stupid discussed in this day and age on blogs and forums. The seat is made to recline, so is the one in front and so is the one behind (unless reclining into an exit row.)
Maybe you could put buy a case of Knee Defenders, put credit card ads with referral codes on one side, and a picture of CX dim sum on the other, and give them out as blog gifts?
Trevor, WTF?
I’m with Geoff here. I try to be considerate, particularly on day flights, but asking if it’s a “right,” to me, is absurd. Are you going to also ask if it’s one’s right to eat on a plane, lest the smell bother other people?
nd yet the mere perceived annoyance of inflight use of cell phones is spurring the government to action,
Calm down, you overprivileged libertarian.
It’s a right…done and done. And the dude that got into it with a woman? Total douchebag.
If they don’t want the seat in front of them to recline, then they can get a bulkhead seat, an exit row seat, or they can try and buy tow tickets and reserve the seat in front of them.
I say ban reclining seats in scum-sucker class, especially with the USA airlines. It’s bad enough with loud, overweight, selfish people on board without the added ridiculousness of reclining seats on s-s class
The whole problem with reclining seats is external costs. When you recline your seat, the entire cost of that recline is born on someone else – not yourself who is making the decision.
Those bad incentives are always likely to lead to bad outcomes.
I’d much rather see reclining seats pivot from the bottom instead of the top, such that a recline comes to the trade-off of having less legroom, affecting no one else except yourself. No external costs.
Sadly that’s not really the case with current seat design. Given the status quo, seat reclines are a right, but I still think we should solve the fundamental cost externality.
We had this ‘discussion’ on Flyertalk over 10 years ago, or thereabouts. As a matter of fact, USA Today interviewed me for the story.
Since the airlines allow you to recline, then be my guest and recline. Don’t tell me I’m rude for doing so. Now I may not like it when you recline into me, but that’s my tough luck.
About 10 days ago, Peter Greenberg wrote about this. You can check his website. After that article, I put him in the Christopher Elliot class < groan.
We just flew our first flights on Southwest to and from EWR to Las Vegas this past week. I must say NO ONE reclined their sets in our area! It was great!
I have seen people recline just for the heck of it, as soon as we are airborne and leave the seat that way the entire trip. Reclining is not more conducive for sleep for me either, so I never recline unless the person in front of me has done it!
People should be more courteous and realize we are all in a tin can flying together. Let’s be civil.
Barring bottom-pivoting seats, I’d love to see a market emerge where customers could easily and without stigma pay other passengers for a seat recline. If I’m in Economy and poised to get hundreds of dollars of work done so long as I can use my laptop, I’d gladly pay the person in front of me $20 to *not* recline the whole flight. And he very well may be far better off for accepting that payment. There is no market right now to adjudicate the highly different values various people place on reclining their seat vs. having a seat reclined into them.
I think Spirit is on to something with “pre-reclined) (aka non-reclining) seats. The problem is that with pitched reduced on just about every airline, a reclined seat is almost ALWAYS annoying to the pax behind you.
Also, the reality is that frequent flyers (the folks reading this column) realize this, and are much less inclined to recline. It’s the so-called “kettles” who are clueless about it. So the net result is the kettles luxuriate why the frequent flyers tend to suffer.
Are you *allowed* to recline? Of course. But should you? The mere existence of this debate is enough for you to know that you are highly likely to bother the person sitting behind you when you recline. The ethical thing to do then, is to take that into account – on a night flight, it’s more or less expected that everyone will recline, but on a 2 hour day flight you are being a jerk.
It’s funny that someone mentions that it is like eating smelly food on a plane. I agree with the analogy, but disagree with the conclusion: you shouldn’t eat pungent food on a plane *because* it bothers other people. The same goes for opening your window shade on a TATL when everyone is trying to sleep, or playing laptop speakers/video games without speakers, etc. Basically, just have respect for the people who are sharing a confined area with you. It’s not that hard.
It’s all just part of the torture of flying these days. TSA, overcrowded planes,upcharges,rude gate agents and poor ontime service.
I understand the need for the occasional need to recline and I always comply if they ask but some passengers do it to just make trouble. I’m 6’3″ and 260 and the headrest hits me between the shoulder blades and when a petite passenger in front of me immediately reclines their seat as soon as altitude is reached I just start coughing and if that doesn’t work I make sure I start spraying a little on the top of their head. This usually works.
I’m 6’6″… Geoff will die and it will be worth it
It’s a Pright. 🙂
The argument that the seat is made to recline, so it is OK is absurd. My car is made to maybe 130 mph, but I don’t assume that gives me the right to go 130 mph in a school zone.
Most seats are based on designs that originated when seat pitches were far more generous than today.
Just because the airline chooses to give you something doesn’t mean it’s a “right.”
I admit that I will occasionally recline, but only enough to relieve the pressure on my lower back. I’ve had too many close calls when I’m working on my laptop, and the person in front of me reclines and crushes the screen on my laptop – they do so quickly, and I have to move fast to keep from breaking my laptop in half. So I like to pay it forward, and consider the person behind me when I recline.
Just because the aircraft manufacturer chooses to implement a really crappy feature that has the potential to destroy my personal electronics doesn’t mean it’s a “right.” Reclining a seat invades another person’s personal space. Have some courtesy people, and stop feeling so entitled!
I’m 6’7″ and can very easily stop you from reclining by virtue of the fact that my knees press into the seat in front me in standard economy. I almost rather enjoy the attempts of the person in front attempting to recline and banging into my knees, thinking their seat must be broken. They usually manage to recline when I’ve stepped away to use the lav, but when I come back, I wedge my knees back in and reclaim the 2-3 degrees I can. Most of the time, the offending recliner is a regular sized person. I have empathy those in the 6’4″ + camp who sit in front of me! and I let them recline, quite literally laying it forward.
* paying it forward, that should have said.
A reader upstream joked about banning food on flights, but boy, I sure like the sound of that! Nothing worse than finding yourself on an E-145 for 3 hours with four rows of folks all clutching takeout bags from subshops and onion ring kiosks. Gag
“A flight attendant asked him to remove the device and he refused.”
Wow!
I wonder if UA will welcome his business in the future. Is it possible that the airline will “86” him?
And perhaps ditto for the woman who threw the cup of water at him?
I think airline policy and common sense dictate here. If the seat reclines, then the person has a right to recline, as long as it’s not during a meal service or during takeoff and landing.
I usually don’t recline even if I can, and would prefer the option to be taken away. I like the idea of the bribes or permission requests, but they don’t trump the right of the person to say no and recline anyway. Unfortunately.
The words I dread hearing, but used almost to the point of making me nauseous are “Sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight”. It can easily be taken as open invitation for everyone (including the person sitting in front of me) to hit the recline button. I leave my seat up unless I’m suffering some major back pain. I’d rather not be the first domino in the chain.
Simple, dont book flights of 2+ on narrow body. Or just make a stop on either Dallas, St louis or Denver.
I have flown United E+ and they seem spacious for economy. The jerk was lucky he was doused with water. If the FA tells you to cut it out, you cut it out!
Need space for your laptop and work? then ask you boss for business class. If you are denied then you are working for a cheap employer. Time to go somewhere else. And if is personal business, then you are not making enough!
In my eyes: I have the ability to recline, I paid for a fare that has seats that recline so I will recline. Whether I sleep or not is irrelevant. If someone has less space they could have purchased a seat with more space, aka F. If your weight is an issue…not my problemo.
To Paul and Kevin, et al: at times you may have a person seated un front of you with severe back problems. Does the fact that you desire to use an electronic device or that you are tall trump the attempt for comfort that they have every right to seek with a seat recline given to them with their purchase of a seat? What make the likes of you so entitled? Please show some common courtesy to your fellow travelers, as well. Happy travels, all.
If you are going to get “hundreds of dollars” worth of work done in coach by paying someone to not recline, you would be better served spending the extra bucks for an upgrade where the problem wouldn’t even exist.
First, I am so glad that the TSA did not involve itself in this.
But, it is, at bottom, a “right” subject to rules of courtesy.
The airspace in front of me is “mine” subject to deprivation by the pax in front of me by using ordinary design features. After that , it is “theirs”.
I recall a flight (an early morning DCA-DFW) where the pax behind a friend literally kicked my friend’s reclined seat back into takeoff position. That is called battery.
I do not care if you are tall. I would like to be so, myself. Find a product more suitable for your needs. Purchase E+; purchase F; or just stay home. Your height, alone, entitles you to no solicitude.
BUT, during periods identified by the FA’s – e.g., mealtimes on TATL’s and TPAC’s follow the traditional request to go upright. Also, prior to reclining, I’d suggest that one look back to see if reclining will spill a drink/impinge on a laptop, etc.
@Jason – Generally agreed, but you forgot one:
If you aren’t important enough to fly paid J/F, whatever you’re doing on your laptop probably isn’t that important either.
On the debate, I say, “Have your debate.”
On the title, I say either “Do Passengers Have the Right to Recline Their Seats in Coach?” or “Does a Passenger Have a Right to Recline His or Her Seat in Coach?”
BS. If you want to PAY for my seat, then you can tell me how to use it. Don’t like it? Don’t fly. Or buck up and PAY for first class, which I do, when the length of the flight matters to me. Can’t afford it? Go Greyhound.
Reclining is poor etiquette.
Seats should never recline in coach and I am with the guy. That the woman throws water at him (at the risk of damaging his laptop) shows what a total twit she was. This is not about gender, but about manners when confined in a small metal tube at 30,000. She had none.
Reclining is poor etiquette, so an experienced and courtesous flyer should never do it, in coach.
@Adam:
Wow, just wow. Selfish, arrogant and individualistic. The world is all about you, isn’t it?
@Arcanum – Please.
You clearly have no clue what you’re talking about.
I work for a firm where quite a few of its partners make many millions of dollars a year. People pay us >$1K an hour for our services.
We still fly in coach, unless it’s international, because the flights are paid for with OPM.
Reclining a seat is your right. Whether or not you exercise that right is your choice. I try to consider the comfort of the person behind me. I appreciate it when others extend the same courtesy to me.
When someone inconsiderately reclines to the fullest extent, I’m forced to optimize my use of the now sharply limited space by raising and lowering my tray table frequently, adjusting the swivel on any in-seat screen, and making liberal use of the seat-back pocket for bulky and pointy objects. If you’re going to make use of something to inconvenience me, turn-about is fair play.
Judging by the photos on the site that sells these devices, it does not allow the tray table to be folded back up without removing them. In an emergency and these devices prevented a passenger from being able to exit due to being trapped by a lowered tray table, I would think that in the land of lawsuits (USA), the manufacturer of the “knee defender” and the user would be sued to high heaven!
Since the airlines allow you to recline, then be my guest and recline. Don’t tell me I’m rude for doing so.
You are hideously rude for reclining.
The space in front of me is mine. It’s the only space I can use to get anything done. The space in front of you is yours. Do with that space what you will.
The key rule is this: don’t be a jerk, even if the airline enables you to be one. You don’t sit in my lap, and I won’t accidentally bump into your seat every 30 seconds. Deal?
I feel that I paid for the area around me and that when the person in front reclines their seat I loose that area. Nothing worse then trying to read a paper when the seat in front of you is 2 inches from your paper. Almost impossible to get out to go to the lavatory. I say limit the amount a seat can recline.
Passengers have a right to recline, but the courteous, considerate thing to do is to only recline part-way and to minimize doing so during meal-time.
That being said, the problem and the solution rests with the airlines. They could limit the seat recline, which probably would suit more passengers than the current situation. (As someone pointed out above, the current recline limits were set when there was considerably more room between seats.) And better yet, they could all do what you point out American does on its newer first class domestic seats Gary, which is to have the seat bottoms slide forward in a way that significantly reduces the recline into the laps of the passengers a row back.
What does Cathay Dim Sum have to do with this?
From all the chatter, I see that this is a very “hot button..”. Accordingly, I believe that simple human courtesy, which seems to be so lacking in the “me generation,” should apply. If you are planning to recline your seat, simply attempt to communicate that to the person seated behind you to give them a “heads up” with regard to drinks, laptops, etc. with regard to bathroom trips, if people are awake, simply ask for a forward lift on the seat while you make the trip. Otherwise, try not to awake the sleeping passenger who probably reclined to try to get some sleep in the first place. Common sense and courtesy should rule. Those who are tall and big, this is a problem, but buying seats that can accommodate that circumstance may help. Don’t abuse others because you are uncomfortable in what the airlines consider “standard” seating. We all have to deal with it and pay the same fare. God bless.
When I fly in *cattle class* which is most often, if I want to recline in my seat I will! I used my hard earned money to pay for MY SEAT so if the person behind me doesn’t like it…perhaps he/she should of picked/bought a better seat. Stop the bitching! Some of you frequent flyers have become so spoiled getting things for free you think everyone should cater to you! What a joke!
“The space in front of me is mine.” No, the space in front of you, up to the most reclined position of the seat in front, is yours. Beyond that, you can use the space when the person who paid for it isn’t using it. Similarly, the space you can recline into is yours.
Of course it’s polite to recline slowly, or accommodate the person behind you. But that’s courtesy, not your obligation.
Want to have more space in front of you? Buy a bigger seat.
If more space in front of you is necessary for you to do your work, pay for it with the proceeds of that work. It’s preposterous, not to mention the height of arrogance and entitlement, to say that you need the space someone else is entitled to recline into, to do work for which you’re paid “>$1K an hour”, and that you won’t pay for more space that you *are* entitled to because you’d have to spend “other people’s money.” You’ll claim space I’m entitled to to earn other people’s money, but you won’t spend other people’s money to ear n it? Get over yourself.
People are so hostile nowadays and violence escalates in a blink of the eye. She was well within her rights to recline her seat. Yes, he did a jerk move by using the knee defender, but that doesn’t give her the excuse to throw water on him (and most likely also on his laptop!). People can be rude, but you have to kill them with kindness, but revert to animal instincts and lash out. Boo on both of them.
To say that seats in economy even EC recline is a misnomer. We should “recline” carefully otherwise I see no big deal. The really disturbing trend for me is the passenger in the window seat who refuses to open the window shade on a non movie flight and when the sun is no factor. This seems to be happening more frequently, especially in first class. Without a view it really makes me feel like spam in a can.
Right……but button should be on both sides of the seat so each passenger can adjust back and forth………just please keep the curtain drawn so I don’t have to listen to this………….
So where can i get a dozen knee defenders? I can always tell when im behind an idiot or inexperienced flyer – they recline. Id rather have them recline in coach than F. As a platinum on 2 carriers, i often buy last minute tickets meaning if F is not available im often stuck in an undesirable seat. After reading this article, i think i will make a point tomorrow to talk to the person behind me to advise them i am an experienced flyer and will NOT put my seat back into them unless the idiot in front of me takes my space. Maybe if more of us educate the idiots, some of the slamming back their seats will stop.