United Airlines has some of the best cities for premium passenger traffic as hubs: New York (Newark); Chicago; San Francisco; sort of Los Angeles; Houston; Washington Dulles; Denver. They’re strong in the biggest cities with the most business travel, however:
- Managed business travel, especially international and from San Francisco and New York, has lagged other categories post-Covid
- They’re largely in contested markets, even where they have a dominant position. They are stronger in Chicago than American, but American has a hub there as well. They face off with Delta for New York business. No one owns Los Angeles.
What United doesn’t have is the strong presence in the Southeast that Delta has (Atlanta) and American has (Charlotte and Miami). And aviation watchdog JonNYC passes along chatter from United’s internal leadership conference that the airline is planning a Florida hub.
Or “sunny”
(Usually somewhat interchangeable but does maybe point more towards Florida or the like)— JonNYC (@xJonNYC) February 6, 2024
With I’d say MCO/TPA mentioned as much or more. But I don’t know what it all means right now— was mentioned, trying to obtain full context.
— JonNYC (@xJonNYC) February 6, 2024
United Airlines has over 700 new aircraft on order, even excluding 45 Airbus A350s that until recent Boeing production issues were expected never to materialize. If demand develops to support that sort of growth (though many aircraft on order will allow the airline to replace existing planes) they are going to need more places to send them. And one gap is certainly the Southeastern United States.
Gene,
Delta has tried to put a hub in Orlando but decided not to move forward.
Delta is the largest legacy carrier in every major market in Florida except for Miami.
Delta simply does not see the benefit of trying to fight over the very low yielding traffic that is what the money-losing low cost carriers and ultra low cost carriers bulk up on from Florida.
And while people talk about market share by city, there are NO significant markets left from Florida that are not served.
The notion that United is going to start any new routes that other carriers already serve, become dominant enough to control pricing, and then do that a dozen or more times to create a dominant position at the airport is beyond a hallucination.
UA has put crew bases in Florida because they need crews to support their massive growth strategy – as ill-conceived as it is – and Florida is by far the largest state of residence for US airline crew members.
Sunviking,
your statement:
“AA, SW and B6 own FL now and DL is a wanta be that won’t even with LA”
doesn’t even make sense, but to be clear, Delta is the largest airline at LAX and is the first or second largest by revenue in more markets throughout the US than any other airline.
Feel free to let us know the definition of “dominate” which alot of people love to throw around but there really are very few airports where a single carrier “dominates” – Dallas Love Field and Southwest being one.
San Francisco, Chicago – and Los Angeles are still highly competitive.
Hubs for high cost carriers, which describes ALL OF AA, DL and UA – require high percentages of market share.
UA has the lowest market share in its hub metro areas in part because WN has hubs/focus cities in so many airports in the same metro areas.
UA simply will not grow its network outside of its hubs – and since every hub is only as strong as all of the spokes attached to that hub – Kirby’s strategic plans will come crashing down by thinking that he can dominate city pairs where other carriers are already entrenched.
The US airline industry is well-defined and there simply is no room for any of the big 4 to significantly grow faster than the others or in any areas where the other 3 are already well-established.
TPA wouldn’t work well as it’s basically a single runway use airport due to noise issues. Can’t take off on 19L or land on 01R due noise complaints. That leaves one runway for all the airline carriers to use.
UAL apparently still owns the gates in MIA that they walked away from 20 years ago. Heard they lease them to international carriers. Could always go back into those gates.
FLL is a mess and extremely congested. Having connecting gates that can accommodate wide bodies and narrow bodies are a long way apart from each other there. Sorry EWR commuters.
MCO could grow, especially with international. Limiting growth is waiting on 787 orders which UAL won’t start receiving until 2025. Only a couple slated for next year. It’s already a 737 hub for pilots and FAs.
Think it’s all a pipe dream right now. UAL markets folks are concentrating on improving hub operations right now, not looking at new ones. It’s expensive to open a new hub. Personnel, equipment and then opposition by completion.
Tampa would be great to take advantage of the diversity and the hub it could create to central and south America. I was just talking that united is only missing a southeast foot print and here they are looking at the move. To think they could steal market from Orlando as no one wants to deal with it, and Tampa has the capacity to add a lounge or 2
@Justin
“… if DeSantis is governer again.”
Do you think he will be?
Yes, I know that DeSantis is term-limited. Justin just had to say something stupid.
UA tried a mini-hub via MCO at the same time they were beefing up the MIA to SA market. Neither of those 2 markets returned their investments. The MIA market used unreliable equipment and the MCO was used for point to point in an already established market. There was no through traffic out of MCO that could make it sustainable as a hub. UA believed it could make $$ in a leisure market – at the time UA was a full biz marketing model.
RSW
Interesting topic to ponder: where should UA put a southeastern hub? Well, not sure who said Florida but it’s not the greatest place for a true “hub”. AA makes it work as an international hub (MIA) as MIA is beautifully placed (geographically) to reach dozens of Latin American destinations that are all 2-3 hour flights. And it’s closer to deep South America too. UA makes due with IAH for this task, but MIA is better. However, MIA is pretty saturated as is. Yes, UA has some gates but nothing compared with what AA holds. Besides, UA needs a southeastern hub more than a Latin American hub (which, again, IAH handles).
For this purpose, DL has the best domestic SE hub in ATL. AA has CLT for that which is too far north for MIA. UA has IAH and IAD and nothing between. So, they need to fill that gap. No city in Florida does this for them. TPA is too small. MCO is a terrible choice for a host of reasons, not the least of which is that it’s out of the way for connections. I’d offer RDU, but that’s a bit too close to IAD. Perhaps BNA makes more sense? ATL is owned, lock stock and barrel, by DL. They don’t need anything else in TX and there aren’t any other large enough O&D markets in the (non-FL) southeast.
Speaking of Florida, there’s FLL which, again, would serve as more of a Latin American hub than anything else. Doesn’t add up. This will be fascinating to watch.
RSW is ripe for expansion
@ Tim — That’s alot of typing for no one to read it.
Please don’t let it be MCO. Only MIA is worse in Florida. Would love it be TPA – though seems like not big enough
@ Tim — Did you know that there are smart executives running airlines that don’t simply slap the words “Premium” and “Sky” on everything? People get tired of you acting as if Delta is run by some sort of geniuses, while every other airline is run by idiots. They are ALL corrupt, government-subsidized companies that would all be bankrupt without taxpayer support.
Gene,
people do read. Because you are too close-minded to believe that anyone else’s thoughts matter even as you spew your own doesn’t mean everyone acts that way
None of which changes that the whole topic is another attempt by someone that distributes documents mostly from AA – which clearly has very poor control of internal company documents but manages to find some stuff from UA – and wanted to start a rumor which Gary and others repeat.
I quite frankly would love to see United try to build a hub.
The simple fact, as much as you want to resist otherwise, is that Delta is the only legacy carrier that has managed to build and sustain to this day two hubs post-deregulation – and those are BOS and SEA.
DL is actually the product of a merger with Northeast which was BOS-based but DL didn’t make it a full hub for at least 50 years.
DL and NW both had roots in one form or another in SEA and thus they didn’t really build from the ground up there either.
Scott Kirby thinks of himself in vastly inflated terms, isn’t doing anything that others, mostly Delta already did.
And Delta built ATL into the world’s premier hub that is larger than UA’s top hubs combined.
and in its best year, UA still managed to make $2 billion less than Delta -or just 60% of Delta’s profits.
Growth isn’t a brain fart in the C suite but well-executed plans and resources to pull it all off.
There are structural advantages that carriers have that just won’t be overcome because someone thinks they are going to grow and orders tens of billions of dollars worth of jets.
@Sb: Agree on MCO! It is an overcrowded mess, filled with kids, clueless travelers and bottom-dweller ULCC flights. It would be a bad place to put a hub IMHO, if for no other reason that UAs fares from MCO would necessarily be pretty low thanks to the competition. Everyone flies there. And, aside from travelers to places like Colombia or Puerto Rico, who wants to fly from LIT to CHS via MCO? It wouldn’t be great. It’s only 2 pluses: room for expansion and a (still) fast growing market for O&D pax.
TPA is too small for a hub. The airport is a bit constrained and the market is simply a little too small and demographically somewhat old (and slower growing) to support the kind of hub UA needs.
@ Tim — “Scott Kirby thinks of himself in vastly inflated terms, isn’t doing anything that others, mostly Delta already did.” What do you expect airlines to do that is so unique? Fly to mars? There is little “new” to do, so they just find new politicians to beg for favors. You act as if Delta invented the airplane itself.
This would help make United more competitive in Caribbean and South American markets, where they have been historically weak in.
If UA still has the lion’s share of Disney’s business, that could serve as a foundation for a MCO hub.
Never flew into or out of there, but JAX has room to expand.
“The simple fact, as much as you want to resist otherwise, is that Delta is the only legacy carrier that has managed to build and sustain to this day two hubs post-deregulation – and those are BOS and SEA.”
Tim…
lol. What? Do you even know when deregulation was? Delta certainly isn’t the only legacy airline to build and sustain hubs post deregulation “to this day”. Do you even know what Glen Hauenstein was doing before he was at Delta? Even the Piedmont CLT hub development took place after deregulation… Besides the fact that deregulation largely allowed the development of modern day hubs anyway.
However, Delta is an airline alive today that has been unable to sustain at least three hubs since bankruptcy: MEM, CVG, and DFW… I guess they have that going for them. They’re certainly not the only carrier to close hubs but they are leading in that category since 2005…
We already have a Flight Attendant bases in MCO and FLL.
@ MaxPower — I guess MEM, CVG and DFW weren’t premium enough, or more likely, another airline outsmarted Delta in DFW? Maybe only the NEW Delta management, post-bankruptcy, is premium.
Max
It is precisely because Delta pulled off the best of the megamergers (DL-NW) and recognized the end of the RJ era was looming that they closed CVG and MEM both of which were heavily dependent on RJs. 15 years later, United is STILL trying to convince itself that 50 passenger regional jets – including 70 passenger versions “cut down” to 50 seats – are viable. They are not.
And you and others LOVE to talk about DFW but you don’t bother to mention that Delta is still the 2nd largest carrier at DFW AND took the extra capacity it had at DFW to operate it as a hub and placed it in NYC where DL has displaced UA as the largest carrier in the LOCAL NYC market.
None of which changes that neither AA or UA have managed to build an all new hub from scratch, let alone two. And CLT was a pre-deregulation hub. It has just been passed around a half dozen times and AA is now trying to squeeze far too many flights – including a very high percentage of RJs for a hub its size – into a facility that is nowhere near capable of handling that number of flights.
Gene,
it is clear
gene,
it is clear that you can’t admit that DL does anything better than any of its competitors, let alone most things.
Delta was just voted the 11th most admired company in the world. Tell us where AA and UA or any other airline was on the list.
Delta’s market cap is the highest among global airlines and DL is the most profitable. You love to say that finances don’t matter to you but please tell us where you think UA or any company is going to get the resources to do anything w/o running a business.
In UA’s case, Scott Kirby has $40 billion MORE airplanes on order than DL, makes less money, is taking on debt, and Kirby still has a long list of things he “has to fix” as vestiges of the way UA has been run for years.
We get it. UA made some major strategic mistakes and they are well behind their competitors in many regards; he chased international dreams which clearly don’t deliver the revenue and profits that DL’s model delivers and 2023 was proof of that. You can’t fix it all overnight but Kirby thinks he can and he is literally betting the company on the hopes – not proof – that he will be right and that the rest of the industry will just roll over and let UA take share. It’s foolish. Pure foolishness.
and MAX,
you fail to mention that AA itself opened and closed 3 hubs of its own – BNA, RDU and SJC – and that is before the endless list of hubs which US opened.
And let’s also not forget that Scott Kirby was actively involved at US and then AA and made or supported many of the bone-headed decisions like the DL-US DCA/LGA slot swap which left DL far stronger in NYC and US no bigger than they would have been w/ just the AA merger.
Kirby pushed all of the Pacific strategic flying that AA did and which lost a billion dollars before he and Parker finally left and other AA execs finally pulled the plug.
Anyone that has followed the industry for a few years knows to take Kirby w/ a grain of salt. And the evidence is handedly that Delta has outsmarted Scott Kirby everywhere he has played.
But if he wants to start a hub or hublet or focus city or anything else in Florida, I have the popcorn ready.
btw, anyone that doesn’t grasp how difficult it is to grow in highly competitive markets – which is ALL of Florida, and much of the US as a whole, should read Cranky Flier yesterday. He has a good data-driven breakdown of the collapse in yields that are a key part of why the ULCCs and LCCs are performing as bad as they are.
And anyone that thinks that UA or any other airline that at all wants to survive should do well to see that the same thing will play out in any city where UA decides to bulk up in someone else’s back yard.
I think there is a difference between a hub and a glorified focus city to serve a major crew or maintenance base. If they can improve their gate utilization at one of the Florida airports by adding an extra 2 flights a day per gate to non-hubs, fine. But that’s not really a hub.
Tim
I could care less about delta’s position at dfw. That would be like me telling you AA is the second largest network carrier at ATL. Interesting but pretty irrelevant for anyone in Atlanta and dfw.
Delta ensured its place at dfw when they ran away during bankruptcy because, at the time, delta didn’t have the cash to compete with aa. They shed a lot of debt, restructured, got first mover advantage and now have the most cash flow due to that. Who cares? You seem to be the only one that doesn’t realize the industry is cyclical. But good for delta.
I’m sure AA is fascinated by your CLT analysis 😉 but go back and look at your history. Piedmont chose CLT as their hub after deregulation and developed it after. Just like most delta hubs today (hell… even ATL since the airline that developed it went bankrupt and emerged from bankruptcy with new owners since atl wasn’t sustainable without bankruptcy protection from delta), it’s then been purchased by an acquiring airline since then. Amusing backtrack attempt from you though .
Glen Hauenstein turned Newark into what it is today at CO, unless you’re suggesting he did that in the 70s? 😉
Plenty more amusement in your comments today but I just don’t have time to deal with your constant redirects when you know your own statements made no sense.
Again. Delta is FAR from the only carrier to build and sustain a hub since deregulation. You should go look at a route map in 1978/1979 if you don’t know that. Don’t make incorrect blanket statements. Just own up when you’re wrong.
Of course delta does a lot of things well. But why derive your sense of self worth from that and turn every article into a delta rah rah session?
United isn’t building a Florida hub anytime soon. We both agree there.
Funny- everyone keeps focusing on MCO. My vote is for Orlando Sanford. They could create their own little airport there with the rest of Star Alliance and have a sweet deal. I’d drive from GA or fly to MCO and Uber over. They could run rock bottom flights from ATL and CLT and really have some fun.
This really serms more like wishful thinking vs. reality. Yes, if NK or B6 go tango uniform UA will make a play for assets that make sense (along with everyone else).
Last I heard the key to a successful enterprise is play to your strengths to balance your weaknesses. Everyone has a “hole” in their network and for good reason. Yes UA is weak in the SE. But as described above, DL is weak in the ArkLaTex lower plains; WN has a token presence in the Pacific Northwest along with AA. AS has a tiny footprint in the midcon region but only to their hubs west of the Rockies and of course B6 has even less other than hubs to the east.
I think Latin America is going to be a huge growth opportunity in the next decades. Most coming from the energy sector. IAH makes more sense long term to take advantage than bashing your head against the wall against US & Latin LCCs & ULCCs in Florida.
MAX,
Delta closed DFW before it filed for chapter 11.
I’m not going to argue the rest of the details w/ you given that you have admitted – rightfully – that UA is not going to build any hubs anywhere and certainly not in Florida.
the whole topic is the result of an attention-seeking twit that is clearly an OUTSIDER that manages to get a few people to dump documents on him – mostly from AA.
But since he can’t get any of those, he is manufacturing his own rumors and people like gary – that need a steady supply of fact-devoid content.
Cranky had the most accurate discussion and he didn’t even include half of the full data including to show that UA is well beyond 5 other airlines in Florida and that is true in most Florida cities.
The only delusion is to think that will change regardless of how many billions in airplanes Kirby has committed to and needs a place to fly.
RSW: Plenty of room for expansion in a growing metropolitan area (Ft. Myers/Naples/Cape Coral).
Delta Delta Delta. Geez, Tim. You pop up on every article and make me wanna puke with your nonstop Delta propaganda.
Let’s be clear about ATL. Delta didn’t build that megahub from the ground up. Eastern had 56 gates to Delta’s 55. DL was gifted that real estate when Eastern shut down. In the same spirit, AA has become the behomoth that they are in DFW after Braniff initially. But then DL shuttered their Texas hub for greener pastures. Same for AA in Miami after Eastern and PA left. NO ONE builds a megahub from the ground up without it being a result of another carrier failing or retreating. The one exception, perhaps MSP. I just don’t know enough about the history of that hub.
Delta is a good airline but they’re certainly not the Utopia you make them out to be.
RSW has the space for another runway and room for terminal expansion. Just built new control tower last year.
Kris,
first, United LOVES to talk about its superlatives and a whole lot of people love to repeat them – until the actual facts are presented and UA is put in its proper place using industry standard metrics.
UA loves to talk about ASMs but doesn’t bother to tell you that they burn more fuel than any other US airline – probably more than any airline in the world – but generate less revenue.
Specific to this topic, UA is the 6th largest airline in Florida and in most Florida cities. It is beyond ludicrous to have some people drone on endlessly about what UA will do without pointing out that brutal reality
All I have done here is to point out facts and reality.
And Delta DID build ATL from the ground up as a hub – but long before deregulation.
And nobody said that ALL airlines haven’t grown their hubs since the airline industry was deregulated.
THAT is not the point.
The notion that UA is going to build a hub in Florida is beyond fanciful.
Wasting internet bandwidth discussing it because some twit decided to stir the pot makes it no more likely than it was before – which is somewhere between none and zero.
Just emailed Palm Beach County business Development Board CEO to see if this is true about United Airlines. Told the CEO to email Mr. Kirby to see if this is true!
Have heard from personal in maintenance that a new hangar has been drawn up and will soon be in construction in a year or so. Looks like they will also be opening up a maintenance base at MCO in the near future.
United Airlines built their Dulles hub from the ground up without a merger / acquisition in 1986 which most certainly was post-deregulation.
Fascinating. Back during the early idle-fleet days of the pandemic I wrote a blog post arguing for a UA hub at TPA, including potential route maps:
https://houstonstrategies.blogspot.com/2020/09/where-united-airlines-should-establish.html
I also used to think fast-growing Lakeland would be a really interesting option, splitting between the big population centers of Orlando and Tampa (a new DFW).
But Industry Insider is really on to something with his arguments for FLL. Delta (Tim’s perfect company with perfect strategy) has already proven you can build up a hub in a coastal market if your competition is mostly smaller airlines (BOS, SEA), so UA would just be taking a page out of their book to go after Spirit and JetBlue at FLL (both are very weak right now).
The second reason I’m switching my thinking from TPA to FLL is that UA wants to be a premier airline in wealthy, top-tier markets, and the Miami-FL-WPB metro is much more of a wealth center than TPA (or Orlando for that matter), especially as more and more of Wall Street moves down there.
The third reason for FLL over TPA is UA needs an East Coast Latin America hub, and a lot of that local demand is focused on the Miami metro area.
The fourth reason that has not been discussed here so far: how the rise of air taxis might change the equation. With a 100-150 mile range at 100-200mph, they could also feed in traffic from the wealthy lower west coast of Florida from Ft. Meyers to Naples as well as West Palm Beach and the Keys. They could really be a game-changer for the local draw zone of the airport, at least for top-tier fliers.
Delta people just make me laugh. They wait around for an upgrade to comfort + and feel ,Ike they’ve won the lottery.
@Tim Dunn:
“None of which changes that neither AA or UA have managed to build an all new hub from scratch, let alone two.”
United established a hub at Washington-Dulles in 1984 and it is still going strong today.
@Tim Dumb
AA was at DFW from day 1 and guess what, they have managed to beat Braniff, Southwest AND Delta there, turning the airport their own fortress hub.
ATL is only as big as it is due to corruption (bribes for tax breaks and preferable treatment) and having huge holes around the hub (Texas, Florida, Washington DC). Their network is lopsided towards Hartsfield-Jackson and they suffer greatly for it
@TIM, did UA and Kirby personally hurt you or your loved ones? Your attack on both seems personal or some sorts.
Your arguments is so subjective and biased. While you seem to sound reasonable in some of your comments, your attacks on Kirby’s personality makes your arguments less valid. One could read that you had in the past been wronged by UA or Kirby. You never mention the mileage program disaster issues by your genius DL that lost them hosts of customers. Delta isn’t the perfect corporation you think it is.
Please tone it down.
Placing a new hub at Orlando International Airport (MCO) could offer numerous advantages for United Airlines, both in terms of strategic growth and service enhancement. Here’s a list of potential benefits:
1. **Strategic Location:** MCO is centrally located in Florida, making it an ideal gateway for flights to and from the U.S., Latin America, the Caribbean, and even European destinations. Its location can serve as a linchpin for connecting these regions more efficiently.
2. **Growing Market:** Orlando is a major tourist destination, home to Walt Disney World, Universal Studios, and other attractions that draw millions of visitors annually. A hub in Orlando could capture a significant share of this travel market.
3. **Increased Connectivity:** Establishing a hub at MCO would enhance United’s network connectivity, offering more direct flight options, reducing travel times, and improving the overall travel experience for passengers.
4. **Infrastructure and Expansion:** MCO is known for its modern facilities and has been undergoing significant expansions to accommodate future growth. This readiness can facilitate United’s operations without the need for immediate, extensive investment in infrastructure.
5. **High-Speed Rail Links:** The integration with Florida’s high-speed rail system, which connects Orlando with Miami and is planned to expand to Tampa and Jacksonville, offers unique ground transportation links for passengers, potentially increasing the catchment area for United flights.
6. **Business and Convention Travel:** Orlando is a major convention center, hosting numerous large-scale events each year. A United hub could attract business travelers, offering convenient connections for domestic and international meetings.
7. **Diversified Passenger Base:** Orlando’s diverse attractions appeal to a wide range of travelers, including families, business professionals, and international visitors. This diversity ensures a steady demand for flights year-round.
8. **Operational Efficiency:** A hub in Orlando could lead to improved operational efficiency for United, with potential for better aircraft utilization, streamlined connections, and optimized crew schedules.
9. **Competitive Advantage:** Establishing a hub at MCO could give United a competitive edge over other carriers, particularly if it offers more direct routes or better connections than competitors.
10. **Partnership Opportunities:** The presence of major theme parks and convention centers opens the door for strategic partnerships and joint marketing opportunities, potentially boosting United’s visibility and appeal.
11. **Cargo Operations:** Orlando’s growing economy and central location also make it an attractive hub for cargo operations, including e-commerce, which could complement passenger services.
12. **Seasonal Flexibility:** Florida’s year-round warm weather and Orlando’s continuous draw of tourists provide United with the flexibility to adjust capacity seasonally to match demand.
13. **Customer Loyalty and Market Share:** A hub in Orlando can help United build loyalty among a broad base of travelers, encouraging repeat business and increasing the airline’s market share in one of the most visited regions in the U.S.
By leveraging these advantages, United Airlines could significantly enhance its operational presence and profitability, while offering passengers more convenient and efficient travel options.
Delta is as big in ATL as it is because of where Atlanta sits in the US and because Delta outlasted Eastern which built a shared hub – which the .gov’s blessing. And then DL has outlasted AirTran, beat back Southwest’s attempts at growing in Atlanta, and handedly outserved any attempts at hub building elsewhere in the SE or anywhere else in the world that rivals ATL.
Even in SEA and BOS which Delta built as hubs, DL and/or NW had roots at that airport; once again, UA is the 6th largest US airline in Florida. And even though low cost carriers are the largest carrier in many Florida markets, AA and DL are both large in Florida – AA is largest in MIA and DL just happens to be largest in most cities outside of MIA.
In the rest of the US outside of Florida, UA is 4th out of the big 4 and that is true in most cities and is displaced by LCCs in some airports – such as is true in Florida.
The notion that UA is going to waltz into any airport and take share from AA, DL or WN is fanciful at best. It isn’t the LCCs or ULCCs that stand in Scott Kirby’s way.
But let’s get to the root of the discussion of why UA wants to build another hub which is that the international heavy route system which UA operates simply doesn’t deliver the profits that UA needs to be financially at the top of the industry. In one of its best years, UA’s profits were $2 billion less than DL’s – which made more money flying the Atlantic and 1.8X more money flying the Pacific than UA – on top of much more per seat mile domestically.
AA is still bloated and inefficient while WN had one of its worst years in 2023, still struggling from its Dec 2022 meltdown and the delays in delivering the MAX 7. The MAX 10 that United NEXT is built around will be certified AFTER the MAX 7 – if either is ever certified. UA is buying SMALLER MAXs to cope while WN is buying larger MAX 7s.
UA is running to Airbus to get more A321NEOs – and may partially succeed – but will have to put more money on the table to also take A350s – which will certainly give them a much more capable international fleet but also add even more debt and to a balance sheet that is already far more stretched than anything AA ever had.
And let’s not forget that it was Scott Kirby that was the architect of a number of AA strategies that not only didn’t deliver in profits but added enormous stress to AA’s balance sheet that they are still living with.
Kirby’s reign was interrupted by covid but the next 6 years will be proof of whether his strategies will work or not. A whole lot of people will find that he was passed over for taking over for Parker for good reason which the AA board saw and Kirby ran to UA solely because UA was as strategically confused. Kirby’s strategies have not proven to be superior to anything else in the industry.
IOW, Kirby is generating a lot of hype, alot of people are buying it and a lot of people will be disappointed when they see that UA can’t deliver because of structural advantages that other airlines have and because of decisions that UA and other airlines made years ago.
PullUP,
no, neither UA or Kirby personally harmed me.
I am capable of listening to all of the data in the industry and drawing my own objective conclusions.
And, you would be living in a cave not to know how much UA execs – undoubtedly driven by Kirby because he is the ringleader – absolutely love to talk about their supremacy while trash-talking other airlines. No other airline exec or team comes close to doing the same thing.
and my comments are not subjective but quite objective. When people argue that my objective numbers – like revenue, profits and objective rankings of on-time don’t matter because they use a more important metric which is clearly subjective, then **I** have won the argument.
and as much as people want to legitimately argue that DL has made mistakes, the bottom line is that DL manages to overcome its mistakes and end up in the lead position while other airlines including UA are still in Delta’s rearview mirror. That is not subjective but quite objective.
When Scott Kirby and his exec team can get through an earnings call w/o touting how well UA does RELATIVE TO ITS PEERS and stop talking about the demise of other airlines or an entire segment of the industry – such as ULCCs – I’ll give my criticism of UA a break.
I don’t think I will be changing my posting strategies any time soon.
@Tim Dunn
You are an old mayor of some small town in Georgia. Not only did you get banned from a.net under the moniker “worldtraveller” but you also got fired from Delta and have been trying to make up for it since.
Honestly kinda sad. Let it go man.
because you can’t win in the argument, you resort to lies and falsehood.
None of which changes that Kirby has a laundry list of strategic mistakes to his “credit” at US, AA and UA, is trying to fix a multitude of strategic errors which were made at UA before he ever showed up, and he incessantly touts his accomplishments and a whole lot of people believe him.
I am waiting for UA to try to build a hub in a city where UA is the 4th or smaller airline. It is beyond laughable for anyone to think that UA will succeed.
again, when UA and Kirby can get through an earnings call w/o touting their accomplishments relative to the industry and dissing other airlines or segments of the industry, I’ll give it a rest.
I am confident I won’t have to change tactics anytime soon.
@Tim Dunn
You’re arguing that UA won’t build a Southeast hub while also simultaneously arguing UA will fail.
Delta was never a huge carrier in NYC, that is until the 2007 bankruptcy. They then did a slot deal with US for LGA slots and took back their leased JFK slots.
Excessive amounts of time and money later they became the No2 carrier in NYC (or 1st if you’re biased ), making their first full year profit in 2014.
You’re the same guy whose arguing that UA can’t turn themselves into a No1 from a No4 position, whilst simultaneously bragging about DL doing the same thing in NYC.
Oh yeah did I mention that UA is one the LARGEST carriers in ATL?
UAL has their eye on MHT as a similar hub like CLE was. 10 new gates large club and prime North BOS AA and DL fliers.
first of all let’s deal w/ a few facts.
Nowhere have I ever said that UA would fail or be liquidated. When you and others can’t win the argument based on facts, first you lie and try to smear me and then you resort to hyperbole. I HAVE specifically said that UA will not succeed at growing its market share to any significant degree outside of its hubs because it will face enormous pushback from AA, DL and WN which are larger than UA in nearly every non-UA hub city because at least one of those 3 are larger than UA there.
2. UA IS the #4 carrier in ATL behind DL, WN and AA. The principle still applies that it is beyond ludicrous to think that any of those 3 are going to roll over and cede one iota of share to UA because UA all of a sudden feels a need to grow.
3. It matters far less how they got there than that DL has made all of the right moves in NYC while UA has made some unbelievably dumb decisions, even if they pre-dated Kirby.
– pre-merger UA pulled out of many markets at JFK due to competition and JFK was reduced to a small spoke even before the CO merger
– CO was so strong at EWR that post-merger mgmt believed it wasn’t necessary to even compete at JFK and pulled out completely. Kirby now rightfully admits that was a wrong decision.
– pre-Kirby, UA had more than 70% of the slots at EWR but didn’t want to use them all so, on top of bribing the Port Authority, underutilized its EWR slots and the FAA stripped EWR of slot designation. B6 and other low cost carriers jumped in
– under Kirby, UA overscheduled EWR which led to the meltdown last June which led to UA and the FAA capping UA’s schedule to maintain operational reliability – and it has worked.
– DL now has 15% more flights from the 3 airports, serves all 3 airports, JFK and LGA are slot-controlled and DL is the largest carrier at LGA and JFK even though it has a lower percentage of total flights at those airports than AA at DCA or UA at EWR.
Domestically UA faces a huge uphill battle to grow its presence because CO was so dependent on RJs which gave them decent share in their hubs but very low share in the spokes.
KIrby recognized and wants to fix that.
Internationally, UA chose the 787 and to keep the 777s but the A350 is far more efficient and larger.
IT is far more likely that DL will gain share in UA’s international strength markets, re-overtake UA across the Atlantic, overtake them to Latin America, and narrow UA’s lead across the Pacific – than that it is that UA will overtake AA, DL or WN domestically or in any market where one or all of those 3 are larger – and that is esp. true in Florida.
Grown adults arguing over airlines like they’re your favorite sports team or school. They all suck in different ways. Period. End of story. Fly what airline works for you and have a GREAT day 😉
Z,
this topic is not about consumer preference. It is about company strategies which is something that this site and others discuss – as they should.
You don’t have to enter into those discussions but don’t belittle people that understand the real strategic issues involved and passionately push their position.
UA clearly has a lot going for it. It was the 2nd largest US airline by profits, has a sprawling international network, and commands good fares.
but Scott Kirby has laid out a pretty aggressive vision for fixing alot of UA’s strategic limitations which involve expanding its domestic network, of which a potential new hub is only part.
UA and its fans can dream about being larger domestically but it is far more likely that other airlines including DL will become larger in UA’s strong international markets than that UA will succeed in growing into AA, DL and WN domestic strength markets.