United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby tells his airline’s pilots that American Airlines might “have to de-hub” Chicago O’Hare. Aviation watchdog JonNYC points to this discussion of the pilot meeting.
“Recap of Kirby and team comments from a standards meeting last week at the Flight Training Center.
A lot seems accurate, though the flight count plans for ORD and DEN were already reached next year.” https://t.co/ejF7UnAXjh
— JonNYC (@xJonNYC) September 7, 2025
United expects “[o]ver 100 new planes will be delivered in 2026” with the Airbus A321XLR doing international flyng come the end of next year, adding new European destinations. With the airline’s growth they will hire at least 2,400 pilots in 2026 – they’d hire more but there aren’t enough available hotel rooms near their Denver flight training center (“this is why hiring is ramping up now instead of November”).
They’ll see new Boeing 787s in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Newark, with some San Francisco 777s redeployed to Newark and Washington Dulles. And they’ll be keeping Boeing 767-300s around “until the early 2030s” with an additional set of heavy maintenance checks.
United’s Chicago O’Hare operations will grow to 600 departures a day, outpacing Denver and Houston. And with United’s growth, they expect their advantage will grow and siphon even more business from American – causing their rival to lose too much money.
American has mostly ignored its Chicago hub for the last five years. It’s only just announced an expansion there, as the city plans to re-allocate gates away from American and to United which has been growing (American objects that their lease doesn’t actually allow this yet).
- American built back O’Hare more slowly after the pandemic than United did. It also scaled back international flying from Chicago, and hasn’t had the large aircraft either – since it retired Airbus A330s and Boeing 767s during the pandemic and then Boeing delayed deliveries of the 787s it had on order. Their decision to remove premium seats from aircraft meant they didn’t have enough to sell in Chicago.
- Some of this is a function of customers walking away from American. The percentage of American’s revenue from frequent flyers dropped markedly between 2016 and 2020, with the airline filling planes at low fares from infrequent flyers.
Before the pandemic started, 45% of American revenue came from 38% of customers flying more than once a year. However, four years earlier 50% of revenue came from just 13% of flyers. Getting even close to half of revenue required broadening the customer base in a short four years.
That followed a period of sharp devaluations in AAdvantage as well as product under US Airways management – including under Kirby as American’s President – and that management’s focus on competing mainly with Spirit and Frontier believing their model was the path to profitability (an odd position for a high cost carrier to take, and it did not work).
- United has had better facilities in Chicago as a platform for growth. Their size is supported by gate space. And that advantage is growing. In that sense, there’s a built-in advantage that’s growing provided they choose to continue flying heavily from the city.
It’s an interesting prediction that American would have to ‘de-hub’. Kirby doesn’t shy away from bold claims, like that the ultra-low cost carrier business model is dead. And he seems to love mocking his ex-employer, which has lagged the industry as his own airline’s performance has improved.
American’s position is eroding in Chicago in part, though, because United has convinced the city that less competition is good and to effectively shrink American’s footprint in violation of the airport use and lease agreement. In short, punishing American for being slow to ramp back flying even though the lease didn’t require them to do so yet. That’ll mean higher fares for Chicago flying.
‘De-hubbing’ doesn’t mean that American won’t have a significant presence. I take it to mean just scaling back operations further to stem losses.
Kirby and other senior leaders also shared that,
- United will no longer be the launch customer for the Boeing 737 MAX 10 as they convert orders to -9s given the delays of the larger variant.
- Washington Dulles will see a doubling in international capacity with new gates coming online there.
- United is “not looking to buy any other airlines or used planes” but is on the lookout for “slots/gates at every airport.” They’re acquiring New York JFK slots from JetBlue as part of their partnership, are trying to secure more to support up to 20 daily operations, and of course some Spirit assets may soon be on the market.
- They need to decide on a Boeing 777 replacement aircraft by the end of the year, and the Airbus A350 “is still an option.” In fact, United placed a firm order for 25 Airbus A350-900 aircraft in 2009, converted that to 35 Airbus A350-1000s in 2013, then to 45 Airbus A350-900s in 2017. Those planes remain on United’s order books, with deliveries pushed out to 2030 and beyond.
That’s an interesting fleet strategy, but overall points to continued growth both domestically and internationally for United. They have a lot betting on growth, and I wonder whether they’ll be able to sustain margins as they add seats and destinations and frequencies (and against any inevitable economic slowdown).
American needs to keep its flights at O’hrare- competition is good and seems that American needs to have better strategists too
The words ‘may’ and ‘might’ sure are doing a lot work here… So, if I read that correctly, Scott says his competition may just… give up? Got it. Anyway…
Let’s be clear that Scott Kirby’s ego relies on trash-talking everyone else even as he talks about how great of a job that he has done at UA.
If you are really as good as you think you are, people will know it.
AA will hold onto ORD as long as it has to; a Midwest hub is essential for any nationwide carrier.
you forgot to mention that he says that UA will its 763 fleet through another round of overhauls so they will remain in the fleet until the early 2030s. UA simply cannot walk away from international aircraft – no matter how old they are – for FOMO.
@ Tim — Meanwhile, DL continues to fly around trash can-like 763s…
and DL’s 763s have better cabins than UA’s 757s or domestic configured 777s; AA and DL don’t use 757s on longhaul international flights and they don’t have domestic configured widebodies.
Just like Max, you can’t stand the truth when it comes to how UA really is and not how the rah-rah songs are sung at Kirby’s dreamy festivals.
UA would love to dominate Chicago the way DL dominates ATL and AA does DFW but that ain’t happening so Kirby loves to sow fear in AA employees and customers.
If Kirby was as good as he thinks he is, everyone will know.
One of the greatest strategic failures in US airline history was the DL-US slot swap which handed DL the largest position at LGA. I still have the memo w/ Kirby’s name on it.
Kirby is getting on my nerves. He does trash talk a lot of carriers, but at the end of the day, his airline delivers a mediocre product subject to emergency diversions in faraway places. Never fly a UA 767 anywhere. Ever.
Just TRASH talk by Kirby.
American is not going anywhere
We’re talking about Chicago, Timbits, where Delta is a complete irrelevance and is trapped in the Eighth Circle of Hell known as Terminal 5 alongside its low-class rival Frontier. Are you off your meds again? As to what Kirby is saying, it’s one of the reasons I ditched UA for AA at the beginning of the year, along with its 25% increase in PQPs for status. If what he says comes through, then I’ll have to switch back to UA, but I don’t think that’s going to happen just yet.
Remember when his former boss said AA would never lose money again? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Hes giving Dougherty arrogant optimism.
Competition maybe be good for consumers but a modest review of AA’s behavior over the years tells us that AA fears competition. When faced with competition they often tuck tail and run.
In the case of Chicago, Kirby maybe correct. If AA “dehubs” or in some ways pulls out of the market, fares will rise. Then AA can run a limited number of flights to those markets with the highest fares. This is right up AA’s alley.
Wouldn’t listen to anything that drag queen says.
Was wondering how long it would take for @Tim Dunn to make it about DL.
UA has decided to fiercely defend their position at ORD, and for good reason. Third largest market. Airport has limited LCC penetration. Great location for connecting. New runway configurations increase capacity.
And, while some think Kirby is trash talking, he has put his money where is mouth is. Not many people would say AA is a better airline. UA has made considerable stride to improve…and they’re getting there. Despite continued issues with contract negotiations, their employees remain generally pleasant, professional and customer-focused.
@ Timmy — Take your pills. It’s OK if your team doesn’t win the trophy. Mommy will still love you.
American is always a good option for me living in NC with its hub in Charlotte, United has no presence in the Southeast unless their is a United direct flight going to your destination, which mostly leaves out any other place in the Southeast.
Tim, people do seem to realize how well Kirby has done at UA and how successful UA’s turnaround has been thanks to him.
Even many non-UA analysts and bloggers enjoy him, thanks to his unvarnished views on the airline and industry at all. When most others will give corporate double-talk about strategies and synergies, he’ll talk as if it’s a conversation with just the two of you.
Plus, as the CEO, shouldn’t his messages serve to motivate the employees while encouraging the investment community that UA is a good place to invest?
He’s been talking, for years, about cost convergence and the unsuccessful ULCC model. He’s also talked about AA’s challenges, along with UA’s growth opportunities and the benefits they would bring.
Some people might not like what he says, but he’s got a pretty good track record of being correct.
AA might not be as good as UA but pushing AA out of ORD and UA achieves total domination would be a sad day for EVERYONE. Not just AA flyers but also UA flyers, UA will surge their price for sure since there’s no competition.
I’m curious what “doubling” international flights in IAD will look like.
@Will
There is a balance between price and connectivity. Let’s start with ATL and CLT.
Both are major fortress hubs. They have above average fares that are being challenged by LCC and ULCC incursion where it makes sense. Meanwhile both Atlanta and Charlotte benefit from connectivity that far exceeds what the local mark can support. That connectivity has helped drive massive amounts of economic development that provides tens of thousands of direct jobs to the local economy, not to mention tens of thousands of indirect jobs. Passengers may pay more, but the community benefits.
Now look at PIT, CLE and CVG…all cities that have been lost their fortress hubs. Did airfare fall? Yes. But so did connectivity. Try getting from one of these cities to another secondary or tertiary city these days. Unless you are routing through a hub you are, at best, stuck with sub-daily flights on smaller carriers. And, forget about much international connectivity. All of this has a downward influence on local economic development.
In the case of ORD, even if AA were to debug or significantly scale back, Chicago would still be a two airline hub city thanks to WN at MDW. WN’s presence keeps competition in check. And, yAA pulling out opens a window for UA to grow connectivity further. There are very few places served by AA from ORD that are not served by UA. With a larger hub, the economics of UA serving these cities might make sense.
UA might cause AA to shrink at ORD but WN is still at Midway. Chicago isn’t going to be a one-airline city anytime soon.
Lots of AA’s problems are of AA’s own making: trying to use the Air Wisconsin CR2s in Chicago when they simply weren’t a competitive product, Covid aircraft retirements (DL made the same mistake but went into leasing & used markets to rectify it), too many RJs, and the issues cited in the article (too few premium seats, too much reliance on a Southern strategy, too much borrowed for stock buybacks rather than CapEx).
Mark,
of course, Kirby and co. are turning UA around; it was horribly mismanaged for years just like AA. But no other CEO or exec team needs to spend as much time trash talking other competitors and talking how great they are.
IF you are really good, people know.
And, yes, investors and analysts love to hear from Kirby because he says what everyone else thinks but doesn’t say.
But let’s be clear that the vast majority of UA’s strategies came from DL; imitation is the greatest form of flattery but DL just doesn’t trash talk the competition and also has over and over delivered where UA has talked.
and Parker,
bringing DL into the conversation was in reference to the 767 discussion; UA intends to keep them up to another 7 years while DL is retiring them probably within 5 years. And UA’s 757 and domestic 777 fleets are far inferior to DL’s 767s while the 2 directly compete.
UA and its fans love to talk about all the good stuff but never are able to be honest about the negatives. I don’t want to hear another word about DL’s 767s given that UA’s oldest 767s will be approaching 40 years and will have a very second tier product compared to what other airlines and even UA has on its fleet.
I am rooting for AA in Chicago because they have worked for me when I have flown there over a number of decades.
Something close to 2/3 of American Airlines flights out of ORD are American Eagle. That has to really hurt.
goforride,
you realize that the average gauge (aircraft size) at ORD for both AA and UA which is the smallest of major hubs except for AA and DL at LGA and AA at DCA, with those two hubs being perimeter and slot restricted, creating inefficiency in scheduling and destinations.
almost 20% of UA’s ORD flights are on their CRJ550s which are 50 passenger aircraft w/ a similar cabin experience as larger aircraft.
The reason why Kirby wants AA out of ORD is because he knows how much that small gauge negatively impacts both carriers because they both have to operate lots of flights.in order to maintain viable hubs.
and Parker,
the difference between ATL and CLT is gauge. DL at ATL is 90% mainline with the highest average gauge among US carrier hubs.
AA’s strategy of flying to lots of cities from both CLT and DFW is far less efficient than DL’s from ATL or even from MSP and DTW.
and the value of ORD in AA’s network is the connectivity that will be lost in and through the Midwest if they don’t have an ORD hub.
ORD as a hub is far more strategically important than NYC is; DL and often B6 flies to the same places AA does from NYC. AA’s presence in NYC is much more about the local market while ORD is about an entire region of the country.
and CVG does still have 2 longhaul international flights – DL to CDG and BA to LHR; other carriers including the narrowbody TATL carriers serve several former legacy hubs.
and MDW’s runways are too short to handle longhaul international flights; WN doesn’t use RJs which support a number of routes for AA and UA’s ORD hubs.
WN can never fully be a competitor to UA.
Kind of rich for Kirby to bash AA when he and Parker destroyed it.
@Tim Dunn – I challenge you to go ONE DAY on this blog without saying a thing about your precious Delta. My division was a city as a hub, not an airline as a hub.
Your absoluteness in your correctness is admirable, but you are taking discussions to places that suit your Delta narrative.
Over 50% of passengers in ATL are connecting, higher still in CLT. Take those connecting pax away and suddenly a lot of routes no longer make sense. How much O+D traffic exists daily between ATL and cities like JNS or AGS? Not enough to justify flights.
My argument had nothing to do with the size of Delta’s…ahem…planes. I’m unimpressed by the size of their and your plane.
As for Chicago, WN can and HAS been a full competitor for…oh something like…decades.
WN planes have the range to cover most places people want and need to go from Chicago. Long-haul international, no. Regardless if you ask UA and AA they absolutely see WN as a full competitor.
@Tim Dunn CVG maintains two TATL flights through a combination of:
1. Connect to a European hub…which proves my point. Lose your hub and you generally can only get to other hubs or where point-to-point volumes allow.
2. Subsidies. All of the secondary cities use them. PIT has used them to get and lose) CDG and FRA. It has maintained LHR and got KEF back.
The pint you ignored was that with hubs come international connectivity that would be possible otherwise. Again…building my case that low fares are not the only way passengers benefit.
American is the official airline of the Chicago Cubs. United is the official airline of the Chicago White Sox. That’s all one needs to know about the competitive situation between the two airlines.
DL has more 767s than UA with inferior interiors whereas UA’s have renovated interiors with premium seating consistent with the rest of their int’l fleet. Both airlines’ fleets have an average age of 29 years and none of the UA 763s are 35 years old yet. Also, DL will need their 767s far more than UA given their limited order book and the long lead times for new wide body aircraft unless they want to shrink their international foot print.
Overall, DL has 41% less int’l lie-flat biz class seats than UA, and far less than half the number of D1 suites than UA Polaris suites. And the gap will only increase as UA takes delivery of 26 787-9s with the new high-J Polaris Suite/Studios by the end of 2026. It’s not even close on a per plane basis.
Lie-flat Business Class Seats/Int’l Departure
UA: 45.4
AA: 35.1
DL: 31.8
Here are the fleet numbers/order book for the three network airlines.
UA: 1,050 aircraft, (227 WB), 187 WB/488 NB on order, 15.6 average fleet age
DA: 992 aircraft, (177 WB), 28 WB/240 NB on order, 14.9 average fleet age
AA: 1,000 aircraft, (134 WB), 22 WB/280 NB on order, 14.1 average fleet age
Competition is not valued in Chicago. We don’t want anyone nobody didn’t send. In the old days this would be part of a deal to keep the headquarters so duh mayor doesn’t look stupid.
@Tim Dunn, @Gene, @Parker, @JL — As you all are likely already well-aware, AA was actually the first of the ‘big three’ to retire their 767 fleet (in 2020). Other than the occasional rear-facing seats on their 787, most of AA’s business class seating is consistent on their 787 and 777 fleets. That’s good. Yes, as we’ve recognized many times on here, their a321T is showing its age. And, as far as premium cabins are concerned, AA’s headed in the right direction with the Flagship Suite (for both 777 upgrades and new a321).
Tim will probably say it’s ‘anecdotal’ (and therefore doesn’t ‘matter’), but, you don’t need a statistically accurate survey to recognize that a lack of consistency is disappointing to many.
So, I’ll applaud United for upgrading the Polaris cabins on all its remaining 767s; I still like Delta, generally, and I’ve enjoyed what they did with the 764 DeltaOne upgrades, but the older 763 and 332 could be better (I know, Tim, they’re working on it, and good things do take time.)
1990 says, “I’ll applaud United for upgrading the Polaris cabins on all its remaining 767s”
UA has had its entire int’l wide body fleet upgraded to Polaris, Premium Plus & Econ Plus for years with far more (high-J) premium seating than the competition.
1990
MOST global airlines don’t have business cabin product consistency between their fleets. It was a goal that UA chose to pursue and it came at the cost of not having a class-leading product; Polaris is a high-density product that was not competitive even by attributes since DL introduced the Delta One Suites on the A350 with doors about the same time.
UA made the 767 product better than DL’s (or AA’s) but has an inferior product on its entire fleet; AA has aircraft w/ new generation business class seats while UA has zero; DL will have 80 by the end of the year.
and the complete irony about this mantra of the standardization of UA’s international fleet is that it will be the complete opposite of that not just when their new generation business class cabins come online on their first 787s but, given that UA clearly has no plans to mass retire its 767s and 777s, it will easily be a decade before UA has a consistent business class product again. By that time, DL will have well over 150 aircraft with Delta One Suites and AA, because it is planning to retrofit its 777Ws will have a more consistent higher quality product than UA will.
the charge about anecdotes comes from being able to connect all of this bragging that JL and other UA fanbrats love to do to any meaningful bottom line.
DL manages to generate more revenue and profits across its system than any other US airline; US airlines do report profitability by global region and DL reports higher profits on its international system than UA despite UA’s larger size.
The reason is obvious for anyone that is objective. UA is focused on size and market share while DL is focused on profit maximization which does lead to large size in some cases.
It is notable how many fewer airplanes DL uses to generate higher revenue – and JL’s numbers don’t even include regional jets.
AA and UA are both in a race for quantity. DL pursues revenue quality which translates into greater profits.
And, as much as some people want to argue about how great UA is doing, ORD is dragging them down because of the inefficiencies of having to operate so regional jets (esp. 50 pax 550s) and having to have a global competitor.
UA openly disdains competition while other carriers manage to win in the marketplace because their execs manage to channel their hormones and mental energy where it needs to go.
I still remember when Tim Dunn was arguing on here that DL was going to be first to 1,000 aircraft and would be bigger than UA and AA because of Boeing delivery delays, they are now last to 1,000 and smaller than both UA and AA, have less profitable flying than UA (DL is more profitable overall due to loyalty and also being in the oil refining business (which does well with oil price volatility and poorly with oil price stability)) and has had a lower share price return than UA.
Also Tim, no one cares if UA copies DL strategies. It is in fact good business to copy your competitors when they are winning – UA hasn’t been a carbon copy though, they bet more on premium – which is working, they also bet on basic economy earlier (DL kinda copied them here) – which is working and they’ve bet on international growth (it has worked in the Summers of 2022-25 but it is riskier so I’m not going to give them full credit here).
If you consider that these companies are conglomerates of businesses, Delta has loyalty, refining, airline and investments. UA is a simpler loyalty & airline business. UA’s airline business outperforms DL’s airline business – it is bigger and more profitable (or less loss making given none of them are profitable from flying alone). Just Delta outperforms UA as a company given its conglomeration.
Andy said, “they also bet on basic economy earlier (DL kinda copied them here) – which is working”
DL actually started Basic Economy and AA & UA followed suit years later, but you are correct that UA led the industry in seeing the international and premium demand in addition to leading on getting rid of change fees to match SW’s largest competitive advantage.
DL is still in the lead, but if you look at the trend, the order books and the airport initiatives it is only a matter of time. Heck, UA has 50 more wide body aircraft already and expects to take delivery of as many 787-9s by the end of 2026 as Delta has total wide body aircraft on order.
@JL, Yes sorry I stand corrected, Delta did do Basic Economy first though it was only on a small number of routes for the first few years and come 2017 when they all started doing it UA did it more aggressively.
Agreed. I think the three network carriers all selling Basic Econ is the biggest reason for the LCC and ULCC’s troubles and no change fees really hurt SW.
I’d also add that the new Polaris Elevated will be a problem for Delta – they thought they could get away with some new seat cushions but United is investing in a full new business suite. Delta has also benefited a lot from airport upgrades over the past decade but it is UA that is getting them this decade – EWR just completed terminal A, DEN is currently undergoing refurb, SFO is undergoing refurb, ORD is getting a new terminal, IAD is getting the new gates and IAH has the new terminal B coming online next year. So 6/7 mainland hubs are being improved…
First,
UA has the exact same business plan as AA and DL other than the refinery that DL has. It is simply bold-faced cowardice and manipulation to argue about only passenger revenues because UA trails DL in credit card revenues.
UA simply uses more resources to generate less revenues. Period. Full stop.
UA has more premium seats but they do not translate that into more revenue – even more passenger revenue proportionate to the size of their larger route network.
and, JL, you still can’t accept that what matters is the revenue that assets generate; no decently run business exists to accumulate assets. DL has consistently gotten the airplanes it needs when it needs it and will continue to do so.
remember, DL has added more domestic capacity in absolute terms even though UA endlessly touts how much domestic capacity it is adding to drive out LCCs.
and I did indeed talk about DL reaching 1000 mainline aircraft first – but I expected DL to not retire aircraft at the rate it has – that has actually been the way UA has operated.
DL has retired scores of aircraft; more than half of its 2024 deliveries were for retirements and that may well be the case in 2025 – and yet, again, DL is still growing as fast or faster than other legacy carriers including UA.
UA will keep every aircraft it can for as long as it can because of its FOMO. and its inefficiency and profit margins will fall while other airlines including AA and DL have more efficient and modern fleets.
Andy,
DL already has 80 aircraft w/ Delta One Suites that are as good as what Polaris 2 will be.
DL will have another 75 aircraft w/ it by the end of the decade including the refurbished 330CEO fleet.
UA’s terminals were undersized and much more worn than DL’s; AA’s terminals are in worse shape than either DL or UA.
It is only in your pipe dreams where you think that UA will gain a competitive advantage against DL. Flying around unrefurbished 35 year old aircraft is what UA says it intends to do; that is not an advantage
@Tim Dunn — As I’ve said before, I’m a big fan of Delta’s a359s, especially the non-LATAM versions, (1-2-1) DeltaOne Suites with the doors; in fact, I recently used my GUCs to fly those on 15-hour routes twice in the last week. It’s one of the best products around on US carriers at the moment. I wish the rest of the fleet was as good.
While doors would be nice, United’s Polaris on their 767 (1-1-1), 787 and 777 (1-2-1) are still a good product, too. I’ve taken it many times on long-haul as well, like 16+ hour flights, including EWR-JNB and DEL. (The issue is that UA lacks on food; also, it’s kinda sad when a purser has to ask for your first, second, and third preference on meals because they botched the preorders…)
I’ve also taken American’s longest route, DEL-JFK in Flagship First on their 773 (with the swivel chair); that one feels ‘special’ as there are only 6 seats in the forward cabin; yet, the product is showing its age, and AA plans to phase it out. The replacement (those Flagship Suites) may rival Delta’s a359 and B6’s transatlantic Mint…with doors!
Speaking of, jetBlue’s Mint on its transatlantic routes really is the only other standout among US carriers. I’ve paid the extra $299 to sit in row 1 with the ‘apartment’ seat (nice to try once, but really don’t need that extra space). Regular Mint on those routes is plenty good; and, the older Mint on transcon routes is still good, too. I’ve said before, B6 has the best food (competitors should try to get on their level…)
Anyway, that’s my overview of the best current premium offerings with US carriers. So, if you want less griping by folks like @Gene, Delta really should complete its cabin upgrades, and achieve greater consistency.
Randomly walk into a topic about Scott Kirby saying AA will debub ORD — what a shocker. It’s now turned into Tim Dunn talking about Delta widebodies, somehow a delta fanboy criticizing United for flying around old refurbished planes, and dogmatically stating United will never have an advantage against Delta, aircraft order books be damned, it seems.
Soooo predictable… Dude, are you really this bored? Seriously, your Scott Kirby jealous obsession is a little much. It’s as though any article mentions him and you go off on a jealous rant from your double-wide Georgia trailer while Scott Kirby is figuring out which mega-home to work from this week. Because that’s literally how petty and jealous you sound. A commenter on aviation blogs typing furiously while Scott Kirby is making millions.
Chill out.
Boggles my mind that a lot of people were predicting that UA was going to move HQ to Denver. With the expansion at ORD and no gates (penalty box) I feel that they are only doubling down on ORD.
On a separate note, I hope to see this IAD expansion especially as new terminals are being built (not fast enough)
@Tim – Sure Delta as a company uses less assets to generate more revenue, but not the airline – you need to read their financial statements – $4.6B of their revenue in 2024 was from the oil refinery.
On the airports – glad you agree with my point, DL’s airport advantage is shrinking and will be overtaken by UA by 2030
On aircraft – glad you agree with my point and admit you were completely wrong, Delta’s fleet is growing at a slower rate than their competitors. I’d also add that their fleet is undergauged – 120 aircraft with 110 seats or less? They are also retrofitting their 757s… N649DL 36 years old (sorry 36 years young)… At least UAL is retiring this dinosaur… wait what was that about flying around 35 year old unrefurbished aircraft being what UAL will do – DL already does this so maybe they are copying DL again? I’d also say keeping old aircraft seemed to work for them through COVID – they’ve demolished american from that strategy.
On business class – so 80 have a good business class and the rest can’t compete with Polaris 1… great!
Wife and I just completed a NAP-EWR flight on Polaris earlier today (45J 763)
D1 on those birds is not even close. United could refresh those seats and be far more competitive than anything DL has even now.
Hint: For those of us who actually fly, it’s the bedding. United is FAR superior in that regard.
Whoever designed these seats actually flies.
Why is it that I can adjust my seat with a wheel on Polaris with my eyes closed vs fumbling around for D1 controls on all of their aircraft?
Gary – is your life really this sad you have to spend every waking day bashing American Airlines on the internet?
Booked another round trip to ord on AA from the west
coast after reading all this Untied trash talk from UA
@1990 I agree on the age decline of Flagship First on AA. Just flew a DFW LHR turn. Enjoyed the privacy but yes the hard product shows its age. Flown many times DFW to GRU, LHR, NRT. Was a great product during its day. I liked to turn the seat to sideways “desk position”. Caught up on tons of work in flight. In May I did a UA Polaris ORD ZRH turn. Excellent service and flight. I saw nothing wrong with the hard or soft product except catering was weak.
Frankly AA has struggled at ORD. I flew UA a lot from Dallas because AA ExPlat just wasn’t worth it. I prefer UA over AA still. But some post Covid schedule changes at UA resulted in bad connex via IAH, DEN: either 48 minutes or 3 hours.
dw,
yes, alot of people are turned off at ANY company incessantly needing to trash a competitor in order for it to survive.
UA would love to have a hub like ATL or DFW. And DL has a larger position in the Midwest via its twin MSP and DTW hubs than any other airline; DL has more international service from MSP and DTW combined than AA or UA has from ORD.
1990,
your overall business class ratings are generally in line w/ what most reviewers believe.
The reason why there continues to be so much noise about business class is because
1. DL realized that the 767 can never have a business class cabin on par with D1 Suites and the 767s are not going to stick around – in part because of economics – and so they made the decision to get rid of them likely by the early 2030s.
2. Polaris is simply not a competitive product even with AA’s current on DL’s non-D1 suite product on their 330s. Polaris is “saved” by the mattress pad – when it is available; DL is adding them – later than they should have – but they are adding them.
3. DL is refurbishing its 330CEOs and there simply is not that much of a difference between the 339 D1 Suite and what AA or UA can offer on the 787; the 777 is an even wider aircraft but most of AA and UA’s 772s will never get a Suite product; the airplanes are just too old to invest in a new product.
4. Just like the seatback AVOD debate, everyone seems to think doors aren’t necessary and yet 2/3 of people on planes that have them use them.
5. despite all of the incessant talk about business class cabins, economy in the 330 and 767 is wider and the majority of people do fly there. Despite what so many people here say, there really are people that buy economy based on more than just price. DL simply has a more spacious economy product on its 767 and 330 fleet.
Andy,
DL is pretty rapidly retiring the 757s along w/ the 767s. DLs’ 757s don’t fly flights over 8 hours – and I’m not sure there are many that even fly 7 hour flights. It is one thing to talk about an old plane and one that is old and has a dated interior.
UA is simply not going to put new interiors on its 767s or 772s which means all of this non-sense about a similar business class cabin goes out the window the minute the first new 787 w/ Polaris 2 comes online.
and, regarding financials, yes, DL is more efficient w/ ALL assets producing revenue.
You can pick out passenger revenue and yet UA flies 10% more ASMs than DL but still trails on revenue per ASM.
UA produces less passenger revenue per ASM and also total revenue using the exact same model that UA uses to compete with DL (and AA).
I love showing up to these debates when people like you use the flim-flam logic you do to try to argue how much better UA is.
The sooner you learn to admit that DL does some things – and esp. the things that matter TO A COMPANY – the sooner we can end this incessant pi789ong contest.
one thing is certain and that is that the real competition in the industry is between DL and UA; competition is good but there is no way that UA execs will say that they win any competition between DL and UA because they simply will not.
UA execs are big bullies that screw around w/ companies that can’t fight back. They try to act like they are in the same league as DL even though they continue to underperform based on the exact same metrics they love to tout.
and let’s not forget that UA STILL has SIX labor contracts that are amendable representing nearly its entire unionized non-pilot workforce.
UA execs love to tell the rah-rah story so those non-pilot employees forget about how underpaid they are
@ TD
Why is Delta rapidly retiring 757s if it is also refurbing them? Either that is really bad business sense or you’re wrong.
Also you seem to think that Delta’s lack of long flights with 757s is some masterstroke of business… No they got screwed in their own pilot contract negotiation – they are heavily incentivized to use widebodies for European and South American flying so they are effectively going to be locked into flying massive capacity on Transatlantic routes and will never be able to operate the thin routes like UAL and AA will be able to on the XLR… One of the dumbest clauses I’ve seen in a labor contract honestly.
Also on the 777s and 767s from UA not being refurbished… I mean yeah why would they refurb something thats going to be retired in like 5 years? Apparently only Delta would make such a dumb decision according to your logic.
Also I think you have most of the people wrong here when you say that we don’t think Delta does anything better. Oh we do, there are plenty of things Delta does better than UA, AA etc we just don’t fanboy over the airlines. I think people would also agree that UA is closing the gap with Delta and shrinking Delta’s relative advantage. For one thing, I agree with you on the labor contracts, I think United’s treatment of labor is appalling – though I’d hesitate to say Delta is great or even good, a certain guy named Ed is well known for getting handsy with flight crew, so maybe he gives his labor special treatment.
Also in point 5 for your response to 1990, you said that DL has a simply more spacious economy product on its A330s and 767s vs UAs 767s. I just looked at this on their respective websites, UA has 18.5 inch seat width, DL has 18.1 inches on 767s and 18 inches on A330s. So I’m curious, why do you think 18 inches is wider than 18.5 inches? Given you said this is “simple” why are you struggling with simple numbers?
in other competitive news, DL has reportedly told its employees that it has secured a lease on 15 gates at AUS; will grow to 150 flights/day in a few years; is taking over the old Admirals Club.
DL and AA will be the tenants on the current concourse while WN and UA will go on the new concourse. New international flights will happen w/ the potential to turn the current SkyClub into a Delta One lounge.
IF WN is set to grow AUS to 200 flights/day, it doesn’t sound like it will happen before the new concourse opens.
over the course of the past 5 years, DL has overtaken AA and UA as the 2nd largest carrier at AUS.
sounds like a real story, Gary.
while UA talks about beating up the little people, UA will hold court at just one airport in Texas as DL is the largest legacy at AUS and DAL and the 2nd largest carrier at DFW.
I love flying into the “Home Alone” terminal
@Tim Dunn – If that’s the final resolution, and it’s very plausibly the direction things have been heading in, the ink is definitely not dry on the deal yet.
AA definitely plans to stay on the legacy concourse, and United has talked with the airport about moving (and taking new club space with the move).
I’ve written about Delta potentially keeping its current club (and Delta One would make sense near the international-capable gates on the curren concourse) in addition to building a new one.
And we know that both Delta and Southwest plan to grow in Austin, and that the size of the new concourse isn’t locked in stone – it could grow to accommodate airline requests as part of the new lease and use agreement being locked in during Q4.
I’m willing to bet, though, that Delta does not average 10 flights a day per gate “in a few years.” They also won’t take over “the old Admirals Club” they would take over both the Admirals Club and the United Club next door (which United planned to do if they wound up staying on the old concourse, but could also do in the meantime once American vacates in ~ 18 months or so). https://viewfromthewing.com/foia-cache-reveals-delta-plan-for-30000-sq-ft-jet-bridge-sky-club-in-austin-united-scheme-to-grab-american-lounge-space/
As far as “DL is the largest legacy at AUS and DAL and the 2nd largest carrier at DFW” …. okey dokey, “largest legacy at DAL” with six peak daily flights.
Oh, dear, Tim’s around making this a “Delta Story”.
Sigh, you’d think the hillbilly would have the good sense to keep his head down for awhile– in the wake of DL just paying $79 MILLION for dumping a fuel load of widebody Go Juice on the schools and students of LA. Nice. Nobody leaves a longer trail of anguished victims in IROPS than the hayseeds of Atlanta.
With that $80 mil DL “coulda” bought another 25 of those ridiculous DC9s they love so much– still flying a Type Cert from the early Johnson administration.
Tim says, “1. DL … 767s are not going to stick around – in part because of economics – and so they made the decision to get rid of them likely by the early 2030s.”
Same as UA, but UA 763s have had superior refurbished interiors for years and will have them in the near future just like the majority of DL’s non-D1 lie-flat int’l seats on other int’l wide body aircraft.
Tim says, “DL is refurbishing…”
Delta takes way too long to roll out new interiors. UA implemented Int’l Polaris, PPlus & EconPlus at over three times the speed that DAL has been rolling out D1 Suites. Current Polaris and the new Polaris Suites and Studios are complementary and can be matched to the yield of the markets they serve moving forward. How many different int’l ‘premium’ interiors with DL have?
It’s just a matter of time.
@ 1990 — If AA didn’t seem to have delays half the time that we fly them, I would be an AA cheerleader. After tolerating their horrible reliability as an EXP for about a decade and after very much conserving the earth, we stopped crediting any flights to AA. I’ve been sitting at 2.95 MM for like seven years because exactly what would one do with a couple million miler SWUs when there is never any confirmable transoceanic upgrade space available?
Lol, how long till TIM jumps in to pretend Deltas 767s are going to be refinished? United’s 767 are already refurbished and TIM can you believe how many business class seats they have?
Oh no, Delta is making in-roads into the… *checks notes*… 27th largest metro area in the US. If they make this a hub it’ll be the smallest metro area hub of any of the big 3. I can see that return on assets right now Tim.
“while UA talks about beating up the little people, UA will hold court at just one airport in Texas as DL is the largest legacy at AUS and DAL and the 2nd largest carrier at DFW.”
You are such a small little man, tim lol
This really is one of the dumbest things you’ve ever said. “Largest legacy in DAL”? Gary beat me to it but you really are grasping at straws for relevance.
In 2025,
Of the US3, Delta has 8.5% of the flights in Texas. 8.8% of seats.
UA is 33.8% and 32%, respectively.
AA is: 57.6% and 59.2%, respectively.
Per your DFW stat, if you look at capacity, Delta is in 4th place at DFW. Frontier and Qatar have more ASMs in DFW than Delta. 😉 Frontier also has 12% more seats out of DFW than Delta.
I realize you hate reality, but you’re not in it. Time to update your stats.
If you’re looking for validation to your sad little Delta-infused life, Texas and your usual cherry-picked metrics are not the place where you’ll find it.
thank you for proving how desperately you want to argue, Max. You do realize that neither Spirit or Frontier are legacy airlines which is what I said. and if you want to include them, be sure and include their revenue – along with QR – and be sure and include them in DL hubs so that AA and UA are well down the list, often outside of the top 5 carriers.
You, just like a whole lot of people, can’t stand to admit that DL really has managed to be the #2 in more AA, WN and US hubs while maintaining its dominance in DL hubs. You childishly think that DL makes its profits because it monopolizes ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC when you can’t admit that DL has such a strong position in more top 100 cities than any other airline – and THAT Is why they get the revenue premium they do.
And you also do all you can to deflect from the reality that UA has far fewer markets than any of the big 4 where it is #1 or #2 because UA has so little market share outside of its hubs and even in its hubs it has lower share than AA or DL do in their hub metros.
and Andy,
did you really use your infantile a.net logic to correlate population size to whether cities should have hub status and the size of the hub that metro area should have?
You do realize that DL operates the world’s largest hub from Atlanta, which ranks fairly down your list of largest metros?
and DTW and MSP metros are smaller combined that Chicago and yet DL has more air service from them combined that any carrier does in Chicago, including international longhaul air service.
You clearly have no clue how air service works.
DL knows how to build and defend hubs like no other airline on the planet.
If DL believes that Austin can support a 150-250 flight/day hub on the local market AND CONNECTIONS, then they will succeed.
Of course, AUS will be DL’s THIRD NEW HUB in 10 years – while AA and UA have each built precisely ZERO.
It is to AA and UA’s shame that they can’t build new hubs while DL can – again, part of how DL manages to be the world’s largest airline by revenue.
JL,
cling to your love affair w/ Polaris.
Reality is that UA uses 757s in about a half dozen markets from EWR and IAD where DL uses widebodies from JFK and BOS. in fact, part of the reason why JFK sees so many 767-300ER flights on DL is because the quality of service is so poor on UA out of EWR on 757s and domestic 777s, both of which are topped by a 767-300ER in quality of onboard product. It says volumes that DL uses a higher percentage of A330-900s to compete against B6 out of BOS than to compete against UA out of NYC.
Gary,
keep your eyes scanning. where there is smoke, there is fire. DL is about ready to announce far more for AUS than anyone has imagined and do so far sooner – which not only means that WN’s aspirations can’t happen in the same terminal.
And let’s see about the AC but it won’t be the first time that DL pulled the rug out from under UA or Scott Kirby even before he was at UA.
Activate a hub in CVG and I would switch from DL!
“while UA talks about beating up the little people, UA will hold court at just one airport in Texas as DL is the largest legacy at AUS and DAL and the 2nd largest carrier at DFW.”
You quite purposefully said DL was the largest legacy at AUS/DAL and the second largest carrier at DFW. Read what you write before you critique. Don’t back away so quickly from your own words in black and white, Timmy.
“You childishly think that DL makes its profits because it monopolizes ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC when you can’t admit…”
No no, Tim. I don’t say that. Delta does in their investor day presentations. You should try reading them. They explicitly say those four hubs are the drivers of their profitability and other ways of saying it in some other recent investor days. So, as usual, you deny things that Delta explicitly says are true then write about 4 other sentences trying to make a point saying the opposite of what Delta investor relations themselves say.
“you can’t admit that DL has such a strong position in more top 100 cities than any other airline –”
I’d love for you to prove that but you can’t and I know you can’t. But, feel free to use data if you’d like Tim. Prove me wrong.
How do I know you can’t?
Because the stat you’re thinking of (and butchering horribly) is this from page 49 of the most recent Delta investor day presentation: “Delta is #1 or #2 in two-thirds of the top 100 U.S. markets” While it’s cute that you modified it for your purposes to fit your narrative, there’s a good reason Delta says they’re #1 or #2 in 2/3 of the top 100 markets, because they can’t say that just using “#1” alone 😉 Another US3 can. It’s also known as the largest domestic carrier of the US3 so it shouldn’t surprise anyone
Cute try though. Try again.
And God knows what you’re ranting about otherwise. You must be drinking again you seem to have some weird fascination with being second place in a lot of cities to AA and WN but ahead of UA. Ironically, AA is the first place of the US3 in many of those Top 100 cities you’re talking about, I guess Delta just loves being second place to AA throughout AA hubs and smaller cities across the US?
but let’s come back to this: “”while UA talks about beating up the little people, UA will hold court at just one airport in Texas as DL is the largest legacy at AUS and DAL and the 2nd largest carrier at DFW.””
Yes, Tim. There are more than three metro areas in Texas. There are even more than 4 airports in Texas. In fact, there are major oil and gas markets which Delta barely serves, at all in Texas. United does just fine at them all, sometimes the biggest US3 in the market but mostly a VERY firm second place to AA of the US3.
AUS in a fine city and a great airport where Delta seems excited to play a perennial second place to Southwest — incidentally, Delta has yet to beat an entrenched Southwest in a focus city. They’ve given up everywhere except Austin so far when Southwest started ahead. Look it up. But we’ll see.
And I’ll just hit on one of your fun idiotic responses to someone else
“did you really use your infantile a.net logic to correlate population size to whether cities should have hub status and the size of the hub that metro area should have?”
1. You’re not even allowed on a.net because of your own infantile logic. You’re banned there.
2. Ok. Fine, fixed it. AUS will have the smallest Economy of any US3 hub in the US (ok… SLC is smaller) but CLT is just above AUS yet has beneficial geography just like ATL. AUS does not have that to just about anywhere except Mexico. DFW (especially) and IAH are both better geographically positioned for east/west flow (or in IAH’ case, Latin traffic).
Just go to bed. You’re embarrassing yourself and exposing how little you know.
AA does indeed serve a lot of markets – but it doesn’t make money for its size.
THAT is the whole nature of this thread – which Scott Kirby is right in pointing out.
DL and UA both recognize that knocking off a few small fries is relatively easy but grinding down AA takes longer – but both are succeeding. DL overtook AA at JFK and LAX; UA is whooping AA butt at ORD.
Doesn’t mean I want to see AA fail, Ghost, but let’s be honest.
AA can’t compete in the top markets so makes up for it w volume in the smallest markets – and then proclaims success – as its 10 year profit margins are the lowest of the big 4 and nearly all of the US airline industry.
AA has to fix its big city weakness in order for all those small cities to work. Your bud (and mine) CF recognizes that to be the case.
and, again, AUS is willing to play ball for a legacy carrier hub; DL has built 2 hubs in the past 10 years and is set to do one more this decade. AA can’t even make its current lineup of hubs generate industry average levels of profitability while UA is too busy flying to Mongolia and a couple of Portuguese islands to have any meaningful presence in the vast majority of American cities.
Yes, DL commands more revenue and size in more of the top 100 cities than any other airline. AA can play around in all of the cities ranked 101 to 200.
I do commend you, max, for sending Anita out to pasture and actually discussing the topic.
was it the full moon or just your “cycle”?
“AA does indeed serve a lot of markets – but it doesn’t make money for its size.”
Not commenting on AA’s profitability, just correcting your incorrect “facts” as you misquote Delta. But it’s little surprise that you try to change the topic vs just admit you’re wrong.
“AA can’t compete in the top markets so makes up for it w volume in the smallest markets – and then proclaims success – as its 10 year profit margins are the lowest of the big 4 and nearly all of the US airline industry.”
So first you’re yelling Delta is biggest in the Top 100 markets. I correct you, now you’re saying AA (which is the biggest of the US3 in the Top 100) can’t compete so long as they are the biggest in the Top 100? Make up your mind. You’re Jekyll and Hyde tonight.
“Yes, DL commands more revenue and size in more of the top 100 cities than any other airline. AA can play around in all of the cities ranked 101 to 200.”
Again. Prove it. You can’t because Delta already said as much as they could say on that stat. I even gave you the page number 😉 You can’t because it is not true.
“I do commend you, max, for sending Anita out to pasture and actually discussing the topic.
was it the full moon or just your “cycle”?”
To be clear, per you I’ve been a UA executive, America West management (somehow?), I guess AA, and now I’m a drag queen you wasted your entire day on yesterday?
It’s amusing that you accuse me of using fake profiles. You need help. Unlike you and your multiple fake profiles Ben over at OMAAT specifically called you out for (how many times did you try to use fake profiles after your ban there, per ben? 😉 ). The rest of us got a good laugh at how he specifically said Tim Dunn tried to keep posting under other names.
Yep. You’ve actually been called out for your fake profile usage by a website owner. Here’s a mirror. Look in it.
I’m happy to use my own screen name. But I do have to thank you for the compliment. I certainly don’t have the funny digs like the person you wasted your day on yesterday. You can go work on your own “Cycle”. You’re so tragically infantile in your pathetic jabs. my “Cycle”? lol.
Unlike you (or her), I wasn’t raised in a double wide Georgia trailer.
Tim, you get called out for saying so many wrong things and just do your normal “misdirect, misdirect” to avoid admitting you’re 100% wrong and can’t even get a Delta investor day statistic correct. You’re far too easy to prove wrong. So instead, you try to waste time changing the topic to try to obscure how you just got proved wrong on so many of your “facts”
Go to bed. It’s not my fault you wasted your entire day yesterday lol. It is my fault for bothering to reply to you this evening. You just say random Sh*t and can’t back any of it up. I did notice how you quickly backed off your “Delta profitability isn’t from the core hubs” idiotic statement. Yet another example of how you just try to change the topic when you’re flat out wrong.
You are a fraud, Max
never did I say you are a UA exec. You aren’t smart enough to be an exec of even the weakest US airline.
yes, DL is the largest airline in the top 100 cities. AA wins in the 101-200 largest markets.
You have the data to access all kinds of questions but suddenly become ignorant in the most significant issues.
Yes, DL leads the industry in revenue in the top 100 markets.
Suck it up, buttercup.
ON yet another datapoint, Delta wins. and you can’t stand to admit it.
oh, and AA will not fail at ORD.. their profits at DFW will subsidize ORD.
Unlike DL’s hubs, DL’s hubs – all of them – actually make money
Kirby has an impressive history of making stupid statements that clearly illustrate that whatever spews out of his mouth makes him utterly untrustworthy. Just as a couple of examples of this are him raving (in a good way that time) about the economically amazing tariffs are and how United is the best airline in the history of the world.
Barely surprising. I am entirely confident that Doug Parker’s lemmings will once again deliver a monumental failure like they did by losing LAN out of alliance in MIA and thus entire South America.
Actually, Tim. You did say I had to be a United executive. Over on LALF. Stop drinking and posting so much and maybe you’ll remember more. 😉
And thanks for the kind words about my intelligence. 😉 at least I wasn’t fired by delta. Don’t hide from your own history.
Happy Tuesday.
“Yes, DL leads the industry in revenue in the top 100 markets.
ON yet another datapoint, Delta wins. and you can’t stand to admit it.”
And the infantile “Suck it up, buttercup”? lol. Are really this stupid and childish to think I care whether Delta does or does not lead in revenue in those markets? I could care less who leads in revenue in the top 100 markets, I’m simply noting that it is not true and you can’t prove it. You just love to say it.
Again, Tim. Prove it. You can’t because even Delta doesn’t claim that which would be a great thing to claim in their investor day presentation.
Facts, Tim. Not your hopes and dreams.
It’s beyond amazing, Max, how you manage to find the data you want to argue against me but are hopelessly ignorant when it comes to data that you don’t want to believe.
DL gets more revenue in more of the top 100 markets than any other airline and has the size to go with it. AA can’t make up for its lack of size in the largest 10 markets with more size in the 21st to 100th largest markets. DL is twice the size of AA in NYC and larger at LAX.
This whole article is about UA trying to strike fear into AA’s employees and customers at ORD in order to break out from the lopsided duopoly that has been back and forth between AA and UA for decades.
The Air Show specifically just covered AA’s problems. Their business model doesn’t work. They spend too much money trying to generate too little revenue because they don’t use large enough planes and win in the largest markets.
The irony is that UA at ORD is hardly the example of how to beat AA; UA at ORD has fewer international departures than DL does in the Midwest and DL’s gauge at MSP and DTW is larger than either AA or UA at ORD.
Christian gets it. Kirby runs his mouth, people love it because it gives them insight into what airlines think even if most CEOs are smart enough to keep it to themselves, and UA non-pilot employees lap it up so they forget about how poorly paid they are.
On a like-like basis, UA is mid-tier operationally and financially – better than AA but half way between DL and AA.
all AA has going for it is that so many low cost carriers are financially so weak and AA has demonstrated for years that it can borrow and repay massive amounts of money which is the only reason the company is still alive.
7 paragraphs to me so early in the morning? I’m flattered.
“DL gets more revenue in more of the top 100 markets than any other airline and has the size to go with it. ”
Again. Any source. Any data. Prove it. you can’t because as I cited from Delta’s own investor relations presentation, even Delta does not claim that. Just you with no source whatsoever.
Noted though. You’ve tried to redirect it from the largest airline in the Top 100 to now largest Revenue in the top 100. You also now seem to be taking it in yet another direction: that if we accumulate ALL the revenue of the Top 100 markets, Delta would have the most there. Also something you don’t know but it’s also different from what you said that Delta leads in the most Top 100 markets. Delta claims nothing of what you’ve said and you can’t back it up because we both know you don’t have the data to look it up and rely on Delta to tell you things (and they don’t even say what you are).
Now, to try to misdirect from your inability to back up your own incorrect claims, you are just talking about AA’s financial problems. Yep. AA has lots of financial issues. Not what I responded to nor what I disagree with. I’m simply noting your usual idiotic claims of Delta greatness are false and noting that after 4 replies to me and many more to others, you still have yet to cite a source. I have the data. You’re right. That’s why I know you have no idea what you’re talking about. 😉
But that’s normal for you. Yap, yap, yap, type, type, type. Never have a single source for what you say. Then when given Delta’s own claim for what you’re Desperately TRYING to say, you still don’t even believe Delta.
Know when you’ve lost and move on. You’re an idiot and tiring.
again, Max, you spend all day arguing using whatever data you manage to find but can’t find data that matters when it counts?
ALL US airlines are for-profit companies and not Aeroflot in the Soviet era or the NYC subway. Revenue and profits are ALL that matters.
AA has taken the domestic version of UA’s international playbook. Volume over revenue quality and profits.
none of which changes that DL and UA both have been winning in competing against AA for real revenue; DL has simply benefitted most because of DL’s stronger position in the eastern US esp. the SE as well as DL’s decision to move to Terminals 2 and 3 at LAX which gave them room to grow.
The US needs 3 strong competitors but AA isn’t strong and hasn’t been for years. UA would love to do at ORD what DL has done in the SE.
DL’s growth at AUS will siphon off good connecting revenue while growing in a market which WN says it wants to defend but will get gates too late to defend its turf.
the only loser is you who find your sole mission in life to be to crap on people that actually know the airline industry better than you do.
I’m pretty sure AA isn’t going anywhere in Chicago. It is delusional to think that UA — an airline who’s service is not materially better than AA’s (and I say that as a UA 1K) — could drive AA away. I do think that AA might not be terribly interested in EXPANDING service at ORD because: 1) the airport is terrible for flight ops, with absurd delays getting to and from the runways; 2) Chicago is a declining city, so the opportunities for revenue growth are limited; 3) AA has far more dynamic hubs, which they control. But Chicago is still the best choice to serve the northern tier of America — everything east of Seattle and west of Detroit — so I can’t imagine why AA would abandon that service.
Damn imagine saying that population doesn’t drive whether an airport would be a good hub and then go on to argue your airline is bigger in the top 100 cities?
You argue about Atlanta… it’s #6 on the list… the top 3 all have multiple hubs from the big 3. Dallas is served by a big 3 and WN. Houston is served by a big 3 and WN, then we get to Atlanta. So your argument about how Atlanta has a lower population than other cities and is a bigger hub, it’s literally the the largest city in the US Hubbed by only one legacy carrier. I’d also add it’s only served by one airport so that helps too…
If you don’t think that population drives whether an airport would be a good hub I don’t think you should be commenting on aviation blogs.
Andy,
population is ONE factor but it isn’t even close to being the most direct correlating factor.
and, yes, DL has figured out how to maximize its size in its hubs including its competitive coastal hubs of LGA, JFK, BOS and LAX.
SEA is the only hub where DL is #2 in size and yet what AS has is more frequencies to much of the same cities – and specifically the cities that feed international flights. Only one domestic flight best feeds any international flight; AS’ larger size does little to help its international flights.
AA is in exactly the same position at ORD. It does not have the mass against a larger competitor – just as DL took advantage of in NYC and LAX.
chopsticks,
ORD actually runs pretty well compared to what it used to before the runways were realigned.
Chicago is a city in decline and the airport rebuild is way too expensive for the amount of traffic that AA and UA push thru it at current fares.
Chicago does have geography on its side for northern tier flow traffic but DTW and MSP duplicate and on a combined basis do a better job at better economics – revenue and costs.
Their CEO has American derangement syndrome.
As someone who flies, I could care less if it’s Polaris or Delta1. They are close enough to be equivalent. DL is not a first class airline. The times they have bumped me or abandoned me is too high to count. At least UA is less proud and gives away credits more freely. I fly UA more than DL, because it offers direct flights to the cities I need to go to: LA, SF, CHI, NYC, DC, HND, HKG, FRA. Delta frequently routes through ATL, where no one wants to be. Delta did win the credit card lottery with Amex.
Mark my words!
Kirby is in for a rude awakening regarding his grandiose plans for United Airlines. He and his inept negotiation team have not been bargaining in good faith with the IBT represented technicians. It is apparent that management has no desire to conclude this process in a timely and equitable manner.
The technician membership be at the forefront of a ‘chaos campaign’ in the coming months that will unfortunately disrupt travel and make the news.
Ask Denver how they felt about their pricing when United was the only hub. Norman Mineta in 2002 said ORD cant have two airlines with hubs because of weather and availability. AA has DFW. Flights are cheaper than Southwest out of DAL. DFW is projecting 25-30 million passengers a year by 2030. And final note for the condescending elitist, “How is on time performance at EWR?”
Go check what UA is charging for a ticket from Chicago to Sydney. Right now, there is no competition, so they can charge a lot of money.
O’Hare revitalization project and the big Global Terminal is going to require capital investment from both UA and AA.
The work on the old T2 has barely begun. We’re at least a decade away.
So, not so fast.