Now that American Airlines is huddling with its flight attendants union in Phoenix this week to wrap up a new contract, without even the help of federal mediators, United Airlines flight attendants are ready to turn up the heat in their own negotiations.
American’s deal appears close to done and should be announced no later than next week – four and a half years after the last contract became amendable.
Excluding pandemic time, United’s flight attendants contract has been open just as long. However their union has stayed mostly quiet. They’ve strategically let American flight attendants ‘go first’ so they could bargain with American’s deal as a baseline – and so that if American’s negotiations went to a strike, it would be a different union’s employees suffering for their gains. (The lead negotiator for AFA-CWA, parent union of United’s flight attendants group, was even lent out to the rival American Airlines flight attendants union.)
- The United Airlines flight attendants union will conduct a strike authorization vote.
- This is flight attendants authorizing their union to strike.
- But it does not allow a strike.
According to the union, United is stalling on a new contract in order to save money on the increased wages during the time it takes to negotiate. However the union will be asking for retro pay to cover this. Southwest flight attendants achieved this, and there will be some retro pay in the American deal as well (we’ll learn in a matter of days, most likely, just how much).
The truth is that the flight attendants union at United has intentionally not sped things up until now, as a bargaining tactic.
This strike authorization vote is just the next step in bargaining. It is mostly a symbolic vote, suggesting that flight attendants are willing to go the distance in negotiations. The union wouldn’t call it without knowing they would win overwhelmingly.
- Many flight attendants will vote for a strike knowing that it is a positioning tactic for negotiations, not an actual vote to strike.
- By saying they’re authorizing a strike, they ratchet up the rhetoric, hoping for leverage in negotiations.
- Voting against a strike would be capitulating in their negotiations.
Even though 99% of flight attendants will vote to authorize a strike, many of those do not actually support a strike but do not wish to reveal this to the company.
Once the union has their strike authorization vote, they’ll be nowhere near close to a strike. The National Mediation Board first has to declare an impasse in negotiations, which is followed by a 30-day cooling off period, and only then is ‘self-help’ allowed. A strike can still be forestalled by the President.
The National Mediation Board has made clear throughout American Airlines negotiations that they do not wish to declare an impasse – and certainly not before a Presidential election. The Democratic-majority board doesn’t want to hand an impossible situation to the President. They also want to be appointed to things in the future, and making things hard for Presidents doesn’t accomplish that.
There have been only two major U.S. airlines strikes in the past 20 years – Northwest mechanics in 2005 and Spirit Airlines pilots in 2010 – and none in the last 14 years.
A strike threat is simply part of the process, and doesn’t generally end in a strike – although it always could just in this case not until 2025.
So no lock out?
Doug Steeland would not be proud of Mr Isom
any company that gives in to a retro pay demand is spineless and incredibly short sighted. There is no point to reward workers for work already completed for an agreed upon wage.
United will save money because they won’t pay full retro.
Why the AFA thought they could gain it is beyond delusional; they will prove that DL FAs with multiple raises did far better than any union represented FA group.
@Mantis
The agreed up wages expired almost 4 1/2 years ago. Your ignorance of the matter is showing.
@Gary interesting take that you think the AA deal is almost done… the FAs still have to vote on it, and they could just vote it down…
@Tim Dunn, yes everyone knows that Delta pays more, but every flight attendant knows that they have worse work rules and will fire you without cause and without union representation to help you then you as an FA are screwed… There is a reason that many flight attendants will intentionally not recruit at Delta because they don’t like the lack of protection… Also their flight benefits are far worse than AA or UA – so your single point about pay is too narrow of a comparison. It’s like saying United is the best because it has more long-haul routes and therefore more opportunities for international flying for FAs. Pay is one dimension, its not everything.
All airline employees of all airlines ought to strike .
@Andy – the deal between the union and the company is almost done. I have written on multiple occasions that flight attendants voting for it is going to be a big hurdle
This comment:
“any company that gives in to a retro pay demand is spineless” is a clueless and mean.
We are working under 2014 agreed wages. No retro means 5 years of extra negotiating every time the contact becomes available.
Tim Dunn: Delta FA’s benefit from the gains of unionized labor, just like most workers in any industry, that have any kind of benefits and protections.
Unions creates the middle class.
andy,
I’m guessing, no, I am certain, that you can’t back up your statements with actual data.
Since DL employees a minority of the nation’s FA workforce, I am certain that many of the total US FA workforce DID NOT apply to DL.
And the fear of workrules is the typical union stuff (to put it nicely) but DL doesn’t terminate its non-contract employees at a higher rate.
None of which changes that DL FAs are paid much more and AA and UA FAs are not going to make up for what they lost.
If AA, Alaska, and Southwest can get retro pay then United will be paying up. STFU, thank you 🙂
“and will fire you without cause and without union representation to help you then you as an FA are screwed…”
As it should be. In a free society, it would not only be perfectly legal to fire workers who strike or otherwise refuse to work, but it would also be perfectly legal for employers to fire employees at any time and for any reason.
AA hasn’t agreed to retro pay.
When the details of a contract are released, then we will know what UA will have to pay.
But even if they all pay retro, they will still lose money because interest rates have been high and consumers either paid much more in interest rates or lost on interest they could have made on deposits.
DL employees that didn’t have to go through massively delayed settlement will come out ahead.
Even DL pilots set the standard for big pay increases and did it before the other big 4 airlines.
I’m not going anywhere, btw. but thanks for letting us know that you can’t win the debate so want to shut down the messenger.
Oh Timmy Tim Timmmm
The union has already stated that retro pay is on the table at AA they know if it’s not there the AA flight attendants won’t vote it in
Try and keep up please all of this is online for anyone in the public to view
We don’t care about Delta we are fully aware Delta is cheap AF and Southwest is making more than Delta. We care about Southwest that is why there is conversation about retro pay currently.
Again keep up and do your proper research Timmy
hey you that can’t figure out your username,
of course, retro involves WN – because DL agreed to pay its FAs and other employees long before any other airline decided to crunch the numbers to negotiate with unions.
and everything is on the table.
When a contract is signed with full retro and interest, then the union succeeded in making up what unionized FAs lost – but we ALL know that will never happen.
DL FAs will come out ahead.
if you haven’t figured it out yet since you aren’t the sharpest knife in the kitchen, the more you belittle me, the more assured I will respond.
Accept the reality that I accurately point out and we will all be fine.
United is The Best Airline In The World according to Scott Kirby so it must have the best FA’s. The airline should pay them accordingly since they interact with passengers more than any other group.
Oh Timmy is Delta coming ahead with getting paid less than Southwest now?
Are they coming ahead with the lack of work rules and constant ghetto re-routes? The no pay protection?
Must be why Delta has to brainwash them and tell them they don’t need a union.
Why are they making less than Southwest now but Delta is more profitable overall ? Why does Southwest have better work rules???
Here is the answer. Because Southwest has a union!!!
spare us the union rhetoric, you faceless coward.
WN FAs aren’t getting interest on their retro so they too lost money which DL’s non-union employees did not lose.
And DL FAs don’t clean planes which WN FAs do – on top of the very different work rules between not just WN and DL but also between WN and all of AA, DL and UA.
and DL FAs do not pay union dues.
If it was remotely similar to what you described, DL FAs would have voted in a union a long time ago – but a 20 year DL FA has voted in more union elections than nearly any other worker in America – and DL remains with its pilots as its only large unionized workforce.
DL FAs will do better than AA and UA FAs but the union machine will be doing the brainwashing that a union can do better.
Oh because you have a face on here? Let me see!
Timmy don’t nobody care about the purple cult. We are all checking on Southwest. The new leader in the industry with actual work rules.
Delta flight attendants just get whatever is handed to them by cheap AF Delta management.
When Delta flight attendants make nearly $100.00 top out and have actual work rules then we can talk until then continue to drink your daily purple juice Timmy
ask WN how much they got in profit sharing…. and then ask a DL FA of the same seniority the same thing.
It will be as if they are working for two different companies – and they are.
WN FAs will get less profit sharing, have to clean cabins, and have no longhaul flights with underfloor crew rest cabins – not one.
I honestly think that all this striking business needs a major over-haul because I think we all know that most of the individuals that are wanting to strike are not exactly happy with their jobs,so they go about whining & bitching about how they aren’t getting paid enough at their job. Maybe those air stewardesses that aren’t happy with their jobs should maybe try some other type of work that would make them happy
The pilots contract did the damage to the Big 4 US airlines financials. The FA contract won’t move the needle much. With Delta recently reporting revenue below guidance, I am glad to no longer be an airline investor.
Brian,
even if airline stocks are reduced to just trading stocks, there is money to be made.
DAL stock was up 7% as Fitch raised its debt rating back to investment grade while TD Cowan downgraded AAL stock today based on heavy discounting.
SAVE stock fell after hours due to what will be a worse quarter (2nd 2024) than they previously expected.
DAL is up 14.5% year to date, slightly better than UAL while AAL is down 18.5% YTD – so there is money to be made if you know what you are doing with airline industry stocks.
and, yes, labor costs are biting for airlines that can’t generate revenue. Notably AAL and UAL have to settle with their FAs and retro, if it happens, will take a small mountain worth of cash – and FAs still won’t get interest on the cash they did not have for 2 plus years of high interest rates – and they certainly won’t receive profit sharing anywhere close to what DL pays, esp. at AA and WN
American FAs and especially United ones, are the worst in the world.
I’m looking forward to when all crews are replaced with robots: pilots, FAs, everybody.
…always enjoy the uneducated “lock out” comments.
A. It would be illegal
B. You cannot immediately replace Flight Attendants as you would more traditional employees due to the FAA-mandated training on each and every aircraft type in the fleet
C. Who would staff the aircraft in the interim of training new F/As? Must have one F/A per every 50 seats
D. Any temp workers hired during impasse would be immediately let go once strike/contract settles
Tim Dunn logic: “as no one has directly measured flight attendant turnover rates at Delta vs other airlines they definitely can’t be different” – it stands by logic that if you have more resources to defend you when something goes wrong then you’re more likely to be able to defend yourself. I take the qualitative data I have from speaking with many flight attendants who have told me the horror stories of Delta firing FAs without much evidence or to protect their favorite workers (management and pilots).
Lets look at some of the other differences while we are at it. DL has compulsory reserve days for all flight attendants – that doesn’t happen at United and some of the others – you get rewarded for your seniority.
Delta uses the PBS bidding system for flight attendant lines, which unless you are at the very top of the seniority pole basically makes most flight attendants get an “average” of the schedule they want, rather than most getting a schedule they like and having visibility of all possible schedules – all the unionized flight attendants opposed the system, and all those on the system hate it.
United and American have sick leave, Delta has PPT – which flight attendants acknowledge as a far worse system because you can’t bank it.
Flight benefits at Delta are worse, there are far fewer interline agreements with partner airlines than either AAL or UAL, so your benefits don’t carry you as far.
And the one defining piece of your flawed logic Tim is if having a union led to lower pay for the workers, why would Delta fight so hard to stop the unionization? In fact they have put signs in every crew room, they have a dedicated website trying to stop unionization and then every time a rumor of unionization comes up they try to do something to placate flight attendants. So is this just bad management Tim or do they actually know it would lead to workers having more power?
I think you get lost in the difference between airline performance and employee benefits. Delta is the most profitable airline in the world, it does not mean that unionization of its flight attendants would not benefit the flight attendants. Airline performance and employee value proposition are different things, I suggest you do some reading on it as you seem to get reemed in the comments on every post as you fail to understand the differences between airline performance and whatever else is being talked about…
@Gary – Yes I know you’ve mentioned it in other articles, just didn’t see it mentioned in this one and thought it should be brought up for anyone who is reading this one in isolation.
@TimDunn Delta’s stock price today is trading today at the same price as it did in Dec 2014. That is a decade of lost money while inflation has taken its toll. You may make money trading in and out of the stock, but as a buy and hold investor, people should not own it.
I am glad the pilots and FAs are highly paid and Ed Bastion made $34M last year. Everyone seems to have made money except the shareholders of the company. Sometimes companies with low PE ratios have them for a reason.
@A220HubandSpoke–
There’s a special place in hell for people like Steenland.
Brian W
there are plenty of stocks that have not translated into large long-term holdings but that doesn’t mean you can’t make money including for decent periods of time. DAL and UAL stock both outperformed a number of market indices for periods of time over the past 2 years – and for more than just a day. Buying specific stocks is a choice but I love proving to people that they could have made money when they say categorically that they don’t invest in airline stocks.
Andy,
I’m glad you pointed to the differences which are indeed real.
So far as I know, Delta has required a certain amount of reserve time for all FAs for a long time – they have had union votes since then. Bidding system is the same thing.
If Delta FAs thought they weren’t getting what they could get w/ a union, they would have voted in a union – but a 20 year DL FA has voted in more union elections than nearly any other American worker – and DL FAs are still non-union.
You could find any number of anecdotal stories about whatever you want but AA, DL, UA and WN all have 20k FAs each or more so you can never get an accurate picture without using macro level data.
And all of the union fear about what DL FAs MIGHT LOSE cannot match the verifiable data which shows that DL FAs have been the most compensated of the big 3 for the past several years and overtook WN FAs for at least a period of time.
Profit sharing is a huge part of employee compensation at DL; in its presentation, Elliott Investment Capital noted that WN employees on average are getting $10k less compensation per year because of WN’s reduced profits and the funds that hold LUV stock for employee benefits are worth half what they were. In contrast, DL profit sharing is paid directly to the employees who can invest it or spend it as they see fit.
all of the union fear porn doesn’t change economics which are easily available to see.
NO retro is going to make up for lost interest income if one had no debt or higher interest expense if an employee had to carry debt due to higher costs and no pay raise.
And the ultimate test is that Delta employees other than mechanics have had multiple opportunities for vote for unions and either voted them out as part of the NW merger or chose not to unionize even outside of the merger-related voting. The mechanics never voted as part of the merger because NW decimated their maintenance workforce as part of the company’s lockout and the size of the workforce was too small to trigger an election.
I support unions where they make sense. I loved Sean O’Brien’s speak to the RNC in Milwaukee this week – for a mindset change in labor-party dynamics of at least listening to each other. But some companies – including Delta and SkyWest – succeed well with largely non-union workforces and the employees have chosen to keep it that way.
@slowTimmy
Do flight attendants care about a higher hourly wages or profit sharing that may or may not happen during times like Covid or 9/11?
Don’t answer that because we already know the answer and that you’re grasping at straws Timmy. 🙂
Where are you getting your info that the deal for AA should be announced no later than next week? There has been zero information released that even remotely suggests that. They’re still in meeting talks this week
@Tim Don’t Know—
“We are all checking on Southwest. The new leader in the industry with actual work rules.”
I know we’re talking about FAs here, but the latest CBA for the ramp is industry leading now as well.
it is laughable that you scoff at profit sharing during a global crisis when the real issue is labor unions that can’t get a deal over 2 years after the domestic market came back alive in the United States and not much longer for various parts of the international market.
and even with the covid era, DL employees over the past 5 years have fared better including with profit sharing than employees at AA and UA -and WN whose profits have been decimated with consider negative financial impact to WN employees.
UAL reported very similar financials to DAL for the 2nd quarter while ALK had a decent quarter. UAL has not signed a new FA contract while ALK just did.
Notably, ALK is reducing its profit guidance for the 3rd quarter because of the cost of their new FA contract.
The very reason why AAL and UAL are slow to settle a new contract is because they know it will be costly – retro could be almost as large as what was given to the pilots when you consider the additional time that has passed.
UAL and AAL are delaying because they know full well that they will not have to pay as much as what they would have had to pay if they had paid at the time that DL increased its non-union employees.
Unions simply are not going to make good for the 5 years that AA and UA FAs have been waiting for a deal.
and no other airline including UA is going to pay profit sharing as good as DL employees get.
keep going w/ your union delusion.
If DL employees thought a union could have done better, they would vote them in but they haven’t and for FAs they have had so many opportunities and have rejected unionization over and over and over again.
@Aj Tarleton The American Flight Attendants union added a brief update to their July 9 detailed statement to say, “Negotiations Continue the Week of July 15, 2024.” They also briefly mentioned that a key sticking point was “the date-of-signing wage increases.” They also mentioned that due to the different stage of bargaining that they’re in now, they aren’t providing much in the way of details at this time.
It seems clear to me, at least, that Gary is correct and that they are getting closer and closer to a settlement. Whether it’s next week, I don’t know, but it sure looks like both sides, yes even AA themselves, finally want to get this contract done.
As to whether or not the union votes to ratify the contract. FAs have told me when we’ve talked during flights that as long as the union gets the minimum gotta haves (They seem to be at the right wage level that they want.) and exceed them on some points that they’ll vote to ratify because they really don’t want to strike. I foresee a ratification because it looks like the gotta haves will be in the contract from the scant news getting out at this point, but it will likely be close because AA management have been such jerks about their approach to the negotiations and their management style is one that everyone hates except for management.
You make a lot of assumptions on here, Gary.
Im a captain on the bus, and I have yet to talk to a SINGLE flight attendant at United that doesn’t support a strike in full. Every single one I’ve talked to is fully ready to strike for as long as the union asks for. There is no chit chat on their jumpseat about not *actually* supporting a strike.
So don’t speak for them.
And your suggestion that the United FA union has purposefully “not sped things up” is false at its core, as well. Their union has shown up to every single negotiation meeting prepared with everything asked of them, ready to present to the company. The company on the other hand has repeatedly not shown up with ANY of the things that they themselves have said they would. Even the mediator has asked the company to come prepared with specific counter proposals ready at specified dates, and the company has ignored those calls too.
It’s convenient that American is negotiating ahead of United, sure, and it would be stupid not to use that to their advantage. But their union is not purposefully dragging their feet.
Your “reporting” (if it can even be called that) is so bias.
@Aj Tarleton, so The Association of Professional Flight Attendants (APFA) announced today that it has reached a tentative agreement with American management over a new contract, after a week of intensive bargaining. The tentative agreement will be presented to the APFA Board of Directors and Executive Committee for review, so details aren’t yet available, but should be soon.
So, it wasn’t announced next week. It was announced today.