For a decade SkyMiles has charged an astronomical number of miles to fly on Delta. Using Delta miles to travel on their partners remained a value, even if SkyMiles kept raising those prices, because partner awards are generally all saver awards.
- An airline might offer all or most of its seats for miles, treating the miles as money, and charging according to the price of a ticket. So a $5,000 ticket might cost 500,000 miles (or more).
- But partner airlines usually offer only the seats they don’t expect to sell, and at a deep discount. So you spend 57,500 American AAdvantage miles to fly Iberia business class each way to Europe, or 80,000 AAdvantage miles to fly business class each way to Australia.
American and United followed Delta’s path of ridiculous pricing for their own flights, especially in business class. You might spend 350,000 – 700,000 for American Airlines business class roundtrip to Australia, and they simply don’t make lower-priced seats available.
But Delta said ‘hold my beer’ because even when those saver partner award seats are available, they now price those seats as though you were flying Delta.
You can still get good value out of MileagePlus and AAdvantage traveling on partners. You can no longer get value out of Delta miles traveling on partners, unless you’re traveling between countries Delta does not serve. For instance flying between Mexico City and Europe or Asia works, while traveling to and from the United States has become ridiculous.
If you’ve wanted to get value out of SkyMiles you’ve needed to (1) usually fly coach, and (2) luck out with one of their ‘flash sales’ on domestic routes and travel to the Caribbean.
Even coach travel, though, is no longer reasonable even when it’s seats that are likely to go unsold. Legendary FlyerTalk member tvl4free who has been watching fares and award seats for decades pointed out that Delta sometimes now charges over 500,000 miles one way for coach travel. It’s actually worse than what he notes.
Immediately some members of SkyMiles leapt to Delta’s defense, pointing out that you often now pay more for one-way awards than half the cost of a roundtrip (another form of devaluation)! But digging into his example of Dallas – Bangkok this are… really bad for anyone engaged in the SkyMiles program.
First, yes, 505,000 miles one way in economy for Dallas – Bangkok (Delta to New York, connecting onward with Saudia):
To be clear, that’s not always what the award costs. A one way coach award can sometimes be booked for ‘only’ 100,000 miles one way.
So let’s be fair and look roundtrip. Having to book roundtrip awards to avoid a penalty is a huge hit to the program, so how much does a roundtrip cost? 605,000 miles in coach, 935,000 miles in business class. And remember this is flying long haul on a partner airline, not ‘buying a ticket with miles’.
Just to make sure that the Delta flight to New York wasn’t the problem, I looked at New York – Bangkok on Saudia. That was a little cheaper… and oddly, business class was less than coach. Which almost for a second made me think that business class was a value here at 390,000 miles one way. Oy!
And to look at a roundtrip, again in case booking one-ways is the problem here, and looking just at the partner award flights: 513,000 miles roundtrip in coach, 765,000 miles roundtrip in business class.
This isn’t a matter of piecing together illogical flights. These are offered up as choices, and in some cases the only choices, for New York – Bangkok. And this isn’t the old ‘Delta’s just not good for business class awards, you can still get good value on partner airlines and most people fly coach anyway.’
The way people used to make excuses for Delta are gone. Partner awards are no longer a way to get value. Giving up on an aspirational use of miles to let you fly in a style you couldn’t afford with money, and just flying coach, doesn’t get you value here.
If you’re saying ‘well sometimes you can fly to Bangkok in coach for 100,000 miles one way’ you aren’t defending the program you are indicting it. SkyMiles doesn’t respect you. They’re generating $5.5 billion from American Express and Delta is laughing at you most of the time that you search for an award on their website.
To be clear, United and American both charge exorbitant rates for business class international travel on their own flights. Occasionally United will drop ‘saver award’ space, usually to London or to another Star Alliance hub like Frankfurt or Brussels. The way to get value with those programs remains booking on partner airlines – for now. They might be tempted to follow Delta’s lead, if Delta can get away with this.
The way to play the game with frequent flyer miles is transferable points, bank programs that let you move points into numerous foreign frequent flyer programs – like Air Canada’s Aeroplan; Turkish Miles & Smiles; Cathay Pacific Asia Miles; Air France KLM Flying Blue and more.
It seems that many airlines follow Delta’s insane prices for J awards. United,AA – 300-400K OW in J on their own metal.
But I also looked at AF, JFK-CDG. While you can find 55K-73K awards, for some days they ask for 700K – one way!
I don’t fly DL primarily because its loyalty program is punitive. While sky-high redemptions at UA and AA exist, with some advance planning and some aptitude, you can find good deals, particularly when you book in advance. (well in advance). Otherwise, the best way to abuse Delta is to redeem points on its partners, specifically AF, where it is pretty easy and mileage requirements in Flying Blue are more reasonable.
1.3 to 1.5c per point for domestic redemptions IS OF ZERO INTEREST to anyone who has redeemed for international business travel before.
Gary,
Many kudos to you again for your brave exposure of the Bastian and Co. obnoxious policies related to their frequent flyers program.
I keep wondering who in right mind would spend 500K on one-way ECONOMY ticket to Thailand?! Sometimes I think that somebody really crazy sits at their skymies desk and puts whatever number he/she feels on any given day, obviously hoping there would be an idiot or two out there who would take up that offer…
I think Delta believes that they can get away with that because most likely the vast majority of their SM members use their miles for DOMESTIC travel, where I think Delta stays relatively competitive with other airlines (as you know, their main hub in Atlanta is predominantly domestic, and it’s relatively weak on international…
We, who live in Atlanta, are pretty unlucky in terms of international travel because Delta has essentially monopolized the international–especially European–market. For example, O’Hara hosts 34 international carriers, Miami 28, Atlanta 14 (even though that Atlanta is presumably the busiest airport in the world–again, because of its domestic travelers..)
Please continue to expose obnoxious practices of Delta and other airlines in terms of their frequent flyer programs… Unfortunately, other bloggers like Point Guy, OMAT and the like, for some reasons, thoroughly avoid criticizing the airlines and their card sponsors…
Sam
Atlanta
Something recently with Delta is their Delta Gift Card Marketplace hasn’t worked since October. When operational one could get near 1 cent per mile and sell the gift cards on raise for about .82 cents after fees and costs. Since Covid I used that option twice to extract value from sign up bonuses as I feel safer with cash fares for rebooking and recourse reasons in J.
Delta is Dead to me. I avoid Delta and Spirit for different reasons.
Delta started dynamic award pricing which is tied to revenue management and not fixed prices.
They have operated the most profitable international network of the big US 3.
They have the most valuable loyalty program and the highest revenue contribution from their credit card partner in the world.
When Delta see signs that the formula they are using quits working and they fall from their position of leadership, they will change.
As long as they are in a position of leadership, others around the world will follow.
Choosing anything based on what YOU think you will get out of it unless it is clearly spelled out in writing (and loyalty programs provide no guarantee of when or how you will be able to redeem awards) is a fools errand
I don’t get the argument “I would never book an economy award using miles because I can do better using a cash back card.”
When you earn the majority of miles by flying, or through activities designed to enhance flying (i.e. spending for elite status), what does citing a 2% cash back card have to do with anything?
Like I have said many times – last year, I burned more Delta miles than anything else, primarily on transcon, transpacific (or maybe half-pacific, Hawaii) and transatlantic flights. I got tons of value. Now my Skymiles account is low – I will build back up via flying, status activities, etc, and more.
@anthony, is you’re not getting 2 cents per mile in value for those bookings then a 2% cash back card is better. It’s just a mathematical calculation that delta miles almost always seem to fall well short of that standard.
If your earring but in seat miles, that’s a different story.
If it weren’t DL, I’d say it looks like a pricing error — Thursdays are not pricing any differently on the cash side, and the ~$1000 cash fare would normally equate to 100,000 skymiles. However, the DL computers never lie, and never make mistakes. But, yeah, the only real value I’ve gotten out of DL miles are for domestic flights on partner airlines.
“86 Reasons to get the Delta Amex Cards NOW”
click Click CLICK – it’s ALL about the conversions
And the airline “loyalty” fraud continues.
Loyalty is a one-way street.
Loyalty programs are a bait-and-switch scam.
@Sergey – Air France/KLM still seems to have reasonable availability for international business-class flights. I booked with Air France miles four times last year. Turkish Airlines also seems to offer reasonable availability. Anyone see any others?
DEL-JFK route too ! Economy one stop flights for half a million points.
All I can hope is that Delta pays Tim Dunn in SkyPesos.
Well, I have long resolved that airlines frequent flyer programs are nothing but hoax. Much to my chagrin, I am stuck with hundreds of thousands of UA and AA miles, so is my wife. We were lured into these programs when 110K/130K AA miles could get you a RT business class to Asia, and, equally importantly, seats were reasonably available.
Only a fool would stick with these programs. I still earn miles, but only incidentally, as a result of my flying on the airline.
@Anthony if you are earning miles by flying (BIS) or through credit card SUBs then of course you are free to demand less than 2% ROI if DL domestic economy awards work for you.
But many of us explicitly choose our paid BIS flights and credit card apps based on the ROI and value of the underlying currency. In most cases the value well exceeds 2% for me as I use the miles/points for TATL/TPAC biz class or expensive hotel stays. (Exceptions include Chase WN cards, but those come with other perks like companion passes that increase overall value).
As I noted above, people stuck with DL obviously have no choice but to fly DL. But those with choice would be foolish to fly DL, absent a placing a premium on the elite perks and “soft product” vs. ROI from miles. Maybe it is worth it for a top DL elite at ATL. But nobody else.
1) As I and others point out time and time again, in competitive market after competitive market, Delta outcompetes competitors, even those with superior mileage currencies. LA, Boston, NYC, coming close in Seattle, etc. Many very intelligent professionals actively choose Delta over the competition in these markets.
2) As I pointed out before – many (most?) people earning Delta miles are doing so either through flying, or by spending on a card to enhance status. I fly on Delta, and I have a Delta card – I spend 30K on my Reserve for my Status boost. Other spending goes on other cards to earn transferrable currencies.
3) It is very easy to burn SkyMiles for domestic flights, especially since you earn MQM for them and they are upgradeable. I’ve burned them, and been upgraded, on D1 transcon, to Hawaii, to Europe. Not hard
@Anthony prove it. Any of what you just said. Literally any of it. Your first point is your conjecture as a delta HQ employee, little else. If you listen to Earnings Calls, you’d realize the mileage world in key Delta markets is rampant with other carriers encroaching on Delta and growing like crazy in their strategic markets.
and @Anthony or Tim (when you inevitably jump in), make sure you include the $6B-$8B Amex revenue benefit when you talk about rasm since this article’s entire point is about the devaluation of that partnership at its heart.
MAX,
actual DOT and SEC data shows that Delta outperforms its competitors in revenue generation per seat mile.
There are good reasons why United tried and failed to get back into JFK.
Other than LAX, DL and UA do not have overlapping hubs but DL is larger in LAX and gets higher average fares.
Do you realize that even in ORD, DL gets higher average fares in the local markets from ORD to DL’s hubs other than to SEA?
and, no, MAX, other revenue including from the loyalty program, is not included in passenger RASM but it is included in Total RASM.
You also realize that the US domestic airline system was deregulated at the same time for DL as it was for UA and every other airline?
thank God, this is coming to light. I have a deltavamerican express card that I’m gonna cancel. just not worth it. aa and ua are of much more value; I recently flew from NY to medellin and back from bogita to ny with a 20 hour stop over in ft lauderdale for 40,000 miles and American recently had rountrips to paris for 45,000 miles
At this point SkyMiles only exists because Delta has to have a “loyalty” program. They would get rid of tomorrow if possible.
john,
did you miss that Delta gets $6 to $7 billion PER YEAR from Skymiles and its Amex relationship?
They have it because it makes money.
When Delta no longer gets enough money to justify keeping a loyalty program, they will drop it but despite the incessant efforts of Gary and others, more people dump more people into Delta’s pockets for its loyalty program than for any other airline in the world.
Obviously this site isn’t in the least reflective of why people choose to participate in Skymiles and have DL Amex cards.
.. more people dump more money into Delta’s pockets…
@john – No, they wouldn’t get rid of SkyMiles tomorrow if possible, American Express pays them $5.5 billion per year. SkyMiles is a profit center.
Because of his endless accolades of Delta, I wonder if Tim Dunn either an employee of Delta or gets some special benefits from posting positive reviews of Delta and its obnoxious skymiles program. If not, why wouldn’t he admit the obvious: their loyalty program is nothing more than a shameless rip-off of their gullible and ignorant customers who continue to sign up for various AMEX-Delta cards and thus supporting Delta financially (as Gary correctly pointed out)?
It’s hardly a surprise that the vast majority of visitors of this great blog, including myself, who are far more knowledgeable about various frequent flyer programs basically reject Delta’s skymiles and the AMEX credit cards linked to that airline.
P.S. I wonder what OMAT’s Ben Schlepigg an Point Guy’s Brian Kelly think about this whole matter? (probably too afraid to offend Delta and Amex)
I recently tried to use my hard-earned miles from my AMEX Delta card. Now, I am cynical about American companies at the best of times, but I was still shocked at being charged 240,000 miles for a $1,300 cash flight, which I could get on Virgin for $863….
So what I thought was a $4,000 value, settings to be closer to $1,000.
Another data point for my assertion that the American consumer is the most abused consumer on the planet.
sam
I am not loyal to any airline’s FF program although I do participate in them – just as I do grocery store and some retail companies.
The financial numbers don’t lie and they are reported comparably between US companies to show the difference.
Delta simply is able to generate the most revenue from its loyalty program of any airline in the world.
I totally get the sentiment of people but they clearly are not the prevailing mindset of Delta customers or Delta couldn’t be generating the revenue it does.
The question is why American and United have not figured out what Delta has.
Tim,
The issue here is not the financial results (yes, you’re correct: Delta may have better results than other major airlines but I think not BECAUSE of their loyalty program but IN SPITE of it… I think they achieve those results because they dominate domestic market on the east coast, due to the total –and I would say, corrupt domination– of the Atlanta airport, which is, as you know, technically the busiest in the world.
The real issue here is that what I believe the Delta’s insane mileage requirements for award travel on international routes, something that Gary has correctly pointed out, and I must say, is shared by other people who posted in this blog.
That’s exactly why your defense of Delta’s FF program looked so suspicious to me.
You’re clearly an intelligent person knowledgeable in this area. Then why not to denounce Delta, like almost every one else here, instead of lauding their financial results, generated in no small part by its link with Amex, which in turn, attract a huge number of totally ignorant Delta customers who don’t care about the international aspect of their FF program.
In that respect I commend Gary for trying to education people about the vile nature of Delta’s FF program. I only wish other major blogs, like Point Guy and OMAT would join him in this effort.
sam
Financial results DO drive what Delta does with its loyalty program – just as it does for everything any US airline does along with everything else a for-profit company does.
Delta has clearly figured out how to get more value FOR ITSELF out of its loyalty program.
Every business transaction is a mutual exchange between a customer and a company. if neither side believes they are getting something of value
Whether you can get it or not, Delta has figured out a formula that better balances what its customers want vs. what Delta has to do to HELP ITSELF.
I may or may not be intelligent but what I bring to these discussions is perspective which you and others that solely focus on what you can get from Skymiles and use a couple of international markets as an example to make your point. (and Gary does the same thing).
Delta and each of the big 3 serve well over 100 million customers per year. Picking out a few anecdotes doesn’t prove anything other than get a pile on effect of people that think the same thing as Gary – who doesn’t even fly Delta enough to have any status.
There are multiple people that have participated in this discussion that have said they have figured out how to get value out of Skymiles so they clearly don’t agree with you – but I am suspicious because I have the perspective that you clearly don’t?
I have repeatedly asked Gary to calculate the average award value for each of the big 3 US airlines but all he does is repeatedly throw out anecdotes. That information is available and yet Gary is more than happy to throw out anecdotes.
As for whether ATL is corrupt or not, you’re going to have to write a whole lot more to prove your point about DL’s presence there affecting competition. ATL complies with federal airport access laws as does every AA, DL and UA hub.
The fact that Delta has built a network that generates higher revenue per seat mile than American or United says that Delta has done a better job of running its business.
And Delta is the largest airline in NYC by local passengers carried as well as in LAX – both of which are 2 of the 3 largest markets in the US and both cities are highly competitive.
Maybe the reason why OMAT and other sites don’t dish on Skymiles is because they know there is no valid argument that they can make.
If customers don’t like what Delta is doing, they will change their behavior. Delta will figure it out and either adapt or lose the revenue. It’s really not a hard concept to understand.
Delta’s FF program has basically devolved into a bait-and-switch. Those of us who were paying attention believed that we were participating in a program to get as much as 10 cents per mile in value through international business/first travel on a worldwide network; instead, we get 1 cent a mile when Delta feels like it. Delta may have had a legal right to this, but it goes hard up against people’s sense of justice, regardless of the “terms of service.”
Whatever happened to consumer protection?
Tim,
I would try to repudiate your argument point by point.
First, you say, “…Financial results DO drive what Delta does with its loyalty program..” I think you miss the point here: “loyalty program” is not about TODAY’S revenues: it’s about creating a program that indirectly creates a revenue stream by attracting and retaining a coterie of loyal customers who provide a steady revenue stream not on only today but also in the FUTURE. Just a few years ago, Delta “pioneered” the concept of defining their award levels to the price of their cash tickets, which immediately led to the incredible increase of award mileage requirements, especially on the international markets (and you’re totally wrong, saying: “…you and others that solely focus on what you can get from Skymiles and use a couple of international markets as an example to make your point…” I wish it would be isolated cases, unfortunately it is not.
To prove that, I would challenge you to find today one-way Delta One award ticket from ATL ( or for that matter, from any major American cities: JFK, ORD, LAX) to ANY European destination for ANY date for anything between 230K to 375K miles! (Before introducing that concept of linking miles with cash, it was genrally 75K –and off -season, it was even as low as 50K flying from JFK). And I ask you: who would in right mind call up to 500% increase in mileage requirement–for just ONE ONE-WAY award ticket other than ripoff?!
Now, sadly other airlines similarly redefined their loyalty programs, which also led to a substantial increase in international award requirements for premium cabins, albeit generally not as obnoxious as Delta’s.
—
One would ask: how could Delta get way with such ripoff? (paraphrasing Bill Clinton, you can say: because it could!).
You ask for some prove in my statement about Delta’s corrupt influence on ATL airport.
First, Delta enjoys what I call, a corrupt influence on the Atlanta city government, which manages the Atlanta airport, by historically being by far the largest contributor to every member of Atlanta City Council, including its Mayors. The Delta money of course buys the influence and helps build its complete dominance of Atlanta airport, primarily in international markets and especially European ones. Here one more fact: Chicago;s ORD hosts 34 international carriers, MIA hosts 28, and ATL hosts 14. Do you still believe it is a coincidence?
Actually, I’m not only the one here who felt abysmal about flying from ATL to various international destinations. A few years ago, Kelly Yamanouchi, a transportation reporter at the biggest newspaper in town, Atlanta Journal Constitution, published an article called: “Not So Much International”, where she basically lamented the lack of international carriers hosted at ATL airport (I don’t need to tell that any business dominance leads to a lack of competition and ultimately to higher prices, and/or less convenience for Atlanta residents).
Second. Also a couple years ago, Georgia Legislature attempted to bring ATL airport under the state control. That attempt, for the reason I stated above, was met by the fieriest opposition from Delta, which at that time was in process of renewing its 30 year lease agreement with ATL airport. Delta actually threatened to move its ATL headquarters elsewhere if that proposal went through. The proposal rather predictably failed, because Delta happened to be one the biggest contributors to the state legislators as well.
As I mentioned before, domestically Delta’s SM program probably remains rather competitive because, as you correctly pointed out, competition on domestic markets is far better monitored than the international ones. Obviously, Delta still benefits from being by far the most dominant at ATL airport, which is the biggest hub for domestic travelers, but it can’t completely suppress other airlines hosted at ATL airport.
And finally: you still have not explicitly stated whether or not you’re a Delta employee, or somehow enjoys special privileges granted to you by Delta by posting favorable opinions of that airline on this, and perhaps other blogs (the fact that you’re member of other loyalty programs doesn’t prove anything).
Tim is a wanker. Clearly for Delta. But also in general.