Two months ago, United Airlines and its flight attendants union came to an agreement on a new contract that meant significant wage increases – although hourly rates basically just offset five years of inflation.
The big win was the add-on of boarding pay, pioneered by non-union Delta and already copied by American. The union failed to achieve ‘ground pay’ (pay for time in the airport) that they’d been promising their members.
I wrote that a revolt against the contract was brewing for both legitimate gripes and misunderstandings.
Ultimately 71% of voting flight attendants rejected the contract, with 92 of those eligible casting ballots.
According to AFA-CWA union chapter President Ken Diaz,
United Flight Attendants today voted to send a strong message to United Airlines management by rejecting a tentative agreement that didn’t go far enough to address the years of sacrifice and hard work to make the airline the success it is today. This is democracy in action.
Flight Attendants need substantial improvements as soon as possible. Our union will survey members as quickly as possible to identify the key issues Flight Attendants are ready to fight to achieve in an agreement they want to ratify. We always said no matter the outcome of the vote, we will fight forward and that is what we will do with the power of 28,000 Flight Attendants and our whole union standing together.
Flight attendants sending “a strong message to…management” is one way to spin it. They sent a strong message to their union rejecting the contract that their leadership negotiated and recommended.
The union made the point clearly to flight attendants that while some of them thought they should ‘never take the first offer’ this was anything but a first offer – it was the best offer. It seems clear that,
- The union got all the economic value that was on the table
- Flight attendants have different priorities. The union read their membership wrong, and communicated with them poorly. How the union chose to parcel out the economic spoils in the new contract didn’t match what flight attendants wanted, hence the need to “survey members..to identify the key issues” that crewmembers want.
- The union lost much of its leverage with the change in administration – a Biden-controlled National Mediation Board might have been more likely to let them strike (although they’d been unwilling to sign off on other strikes, at least before the election).
What’s unfortunate is that it’s been five years since flight attendants at United have had a raise, and this means that they will wait even longer. Senior crewmembers can largely manage that but entry-level wages are not high in this industry.
just to add – which is not noted – is that UA has yet to negotiate a contract on the first vote with any of its labor groups post covid. Their pilots only got what they wanted after unionized Delta led the industry in setting a new high bar for pilot labor costs. UA’s mechanics rejected their first contract proposal months ago.
UA simply cannot make profits comparable to DL by paying their employees industry comparable wages.
UA employees are tired of being subjected to the pep rallies about how great UA is knowing that UA is benefitting off of UA employees’ backs.
Scott Kirby was handed the best employee relations in the company’s history by Oscar Munoz and it is all very much at risk of going up in smoke.
Pay for seniority makes no sense. Pay for performance!
We have better tech than ever to measure and reward good performance. Every flight, upon completion, should bring up (in the United app) a roster, including pics and names, of all crewmembers. A passenger should be able to thumbs up/thumbs down rate each one.
Just like Uber, Lyft, DoorDash etc.
Work in progress. Good things take time. I see nothing wrong here; they didn’t like the offer, so they reject it. Keep trying. Hoping they will reach a better deal soon.
@Tim Dunn — I know you don’t prefer it, but Delta’s FAs and baggage handlers really should consider organizing, like Delta’s dispatchers, and their pilots, since 1934!
@Erect — Let’s not rely on passengers’ often uninformed opinions to be the only judge. These ‘gig economy’ rating systems are not great. Also, recall that they can rate you, too. Wonder your score…
Erect wonders why he can never get an Uber.
1990
why should any more DL employees organize? so they can make less, be treated like this, and have the company take thousands of dollars from them for years if not forever?
DL has figured out a unique formula in an industry that is highly unionized and no rational DL employee would vote for a union given how well they and the company are doing right now.
@Total – I have no problems getting an Uber. I’m an Uber One member as well. I usually have an Uber waiting at the curb before I can even exit the front door of whatever building I’m in. Are you projecting both your inability to get Ubers as well as your stupidity? (Don’t answer that. I know the answer is YES to both.) You are a total moron. Total. Moron.
@1990 – The ratings don’t have to be perfect or the only judge. They do provide valuable data. At this point in the big data/machine learning/AI lifecycle as regards value to the business, it’s malpractice not to be measuring the performance of your workforce in this manner. Seniority-based pay is how you get extremely lousy performance. This has been studied over and over in I-O Psych departments.
Sara Nelson is a cancer on the industry and is more interested in hob bobbing with elites and being on TV than her own members.
Sarah needs to go back to flying.
@Tim Dunn — We agree that Delta’s profit-sharing is a strength, yet there is so much more to unions within aviation (and generally) than just ‘getting paid more,’ like also improved working conditions and job security. It’s a network of support that mere contractors do not receive when on their own.
@Erect — Performance is usually a case-by-case determination. Seniority is often an asset. That said, new entrants often bring new ideas and energy. We need a mix. Unions do a decent job of policing and supporting their own. Sure, the capital class and their mercenaries in the C-suite would prefer underpaid, easily exploitable workforces, so they maximize profits. But ‘profits over people’ can only get you so far.
Scott Kirby and the unionized flight attendants are not the real problem. The absolute BIG problem is Sarah Nelson, president of AFA. She’s a cancer to the entire AFA membership & the United membership has longgggg wanted her gone. And her ass is too big to walk down an aisle of a plane & return to flying. That’s what happens when you sit on your butt all day trying to get egocentric media coverage 24/7.
Erect why not survey the industry and pay more than the average since you want to attract the best employees. That is the senior executive model for most companies.
@1990 – Don’t worry, Erect already has a score for sure. That’s how the CCP rolls.
@Mike Hunt — I’m curious how many of the other blogs @Erect is trolling, because recently there was a guy with three Chinese names on DoC that was shit-posting, and it sure seemed like him. Yin jing (Jiba) (Xiaoniao).
@Tim Dunn
“why should any more DL employees organize? so they can make less, be treated like this, and have the company take thousands of dollars from them for years if not forever?”
Some people don’t undertake real critical thought in the economic arena; they just buy into the party line. In the old days, you’d read the Daily Worker and buy the assertion that unions are great without reservation. I knew a person employed by a union once. They felt unions were the equivalent to Windex in “My Greek Wedding.”
@This comes to mind — Umm, advocating for workers doesn’t make anyone a communist. That’s absurd. It’s 2025, we’re all capitalists here.
The simple fact is that DL has been rated BY ITS OWN EMPLOYEES much higher than unionized airlines’ employees rate them.
Delta clearly does have better relations with its employees IN ADDITION to higher economic issues.
And for those that want to blame the AFA, UA pilots rejected their first contract proposal post covid only to receive a contract worth twice as much after DL settled with its pilots.
UA mechanics rejected their contract proposal earlier this year and are still slugging through the process of trying to keep their jobs from being outsourced.
Scott Kirby is treating UA employees just like he did AA and US employees. He knows full well that UA cannot generate profits on par with DL without underpaying UA employees.
@1990 – Probably just monitored AI. Makes you wonder why they’d go to all the trouble though.
Sara Nelson’s political ambitions just ran out of runway.
You just hate to see it.
Tim
Yes. Delta employees enjoy millions upon millions of delta-generated propaganda from Executive-level multi-millionaire hires to management-picked “employee councils” full of “employee videos” reminding Delta FAs how lucky they are to not have any workplace protections whatsoever, while ignoring the fact that they only enjoy their current pay due to Delta’s crazy fear of unionization but forgetting about workplace rules they do not enjoy.
You can’t honestly think Delta pays their employees only out of the goodness of their hearts? It’s a public company, not a charity. They pay because Delta is scared Sh*tless about unionization — evidenced by how they hire executives specializing in anti-unionization.
Unions have their place in society. Your greatest fear and Delta’s greatest fear is that Delta’s profits would be exposed for what they are — largely above average due to lack of workplace protections a union provides. Delta would still be profitable, but no better than United but probably lower profitability than United for a time since Delta has proven such poor negotiators with their own pilot union.
You rant about United yet ignore that Delta workers truly have no protection against being fired or unilateral action from Delta management — most obviously shown recently a few years back when Delta unilaterally took away every non-union profit sharing plan at its current rate and replaced with something significantly lower while going all-out proclaiming it as the best financial thing ever — only true if you’ve never looked at math.
The Delta Pilot Union said “No F-ing way” to Delta management knowing how lucrative a change in profit sharing would be to delta management since Delta did not allow any non-union groups to have equivalent financial advisory groups to ALPA. And out of fear of other unionization, Delta management gave their current profit sharing plan back to other groups.
Delta non-union employees owe their current wages and current profit sharing plan to the sheer fear of Delta management of unionization and how that impacts profitability.
Tim, Your weird fetish and jealousy of Scott Kirby is amusing to everyone, but just that, amusing. You’re a loser in a comment section. He’s the turn-around CEO of United by all accounts.
No one thinks any comment you make is in the best interest of United, their employees, or their customers, but purely in your weird fetish for Delta and fear of Unionization, which is just funny to anyone with real airline experience.
@Mike Hunt — That’s wild, if true. Call me a purist, but I like good ole fashioned, human-to-human trolli… I mean, discourse!
“Umm, advocating for workers doesn’t make anyone a communist. That’s absurd. It’s 2025, we’re all capitalists here.” Those who actually read my post would realize that I clearly suggested those aspiring to be communists would support unions (unflinchingly, because they are “told to”). I never suggested that advocating for workers makes one a communist. Since I am a huge advocate for workers, and I am a not a communist, why would I say that (of course I didn’t, did I?)? That’s absurd. Pft. Bang. Wow [and other Batman graphics]. I’m not a capitalist. I believe in free enterprise. While you might equate the two, I make the important distinction. It highlights that, among other things, I am opposed to government-sponsored actions that diminish the rights of workers (like removing their ability to bargain for wages, hours, benefits, etc.).
@MaxPower — Tim’s ‘fetish,’ you say? Sir, we don’t kink shame at VFTW, unless kink-shaming IS your kink, only then am I at a loss for what to do…
@Tim Dunn — Don’t worry, sir. You’re still right about many things on here. And, you do you, as far as those kinks are concerned!
@This comes to mind — Still, no. You’re needlessly complicating things, and wrongly vilifying those members. Nice Batman references, though. Speaking of, any preference on era? More of a Christian Bale, Dark Knight fan, myself. So, a little less ‘bing, dang, ow!’ And a little more, ‘Why so serious?’
Also, @Mike Hunt, I feel like we need a ‘you have to tell me if you’re an AI’ rule, akin to the misconception that criminals in movies often make, ‘you have to tell me if you’re a cop…’ (they don’t.)
@1990
we could be good friends outside a comment section. I would never kink shame. Though I’ll admit, I might if one’s fetish was Scott Kirby or Delta since those two aren’t generally acknowledged on most San Francisco streets toward the end of September.
@MaxPower — Yup, a bit less leather…
what a whole lot of people can’t accept is that DL employees HAVE HAD multiple opportunities not just to vote for a union but also to decertify the unions that were brought to the merged DL/NW. 40k union jobs were eliminated in a series of votes; a 20 yr DL FA has had THREE opportunities to vote for a union and have rejected it EVERY TIME.
The notion that unions offer anything that DL employees believe is better than what they have has been rejected – by DL employees themselves. THEY, not me, not union advocates and not a bunch of internet know-it-alls have rated their relationship with their employer better than the vast majority of companies.
Unions can’t stand that they can unionize Amazon, Starbucks, VW etc but they can’t get a single more unions at DL
and, again, whether it is Sara or Scott, DL FA’s want nothing at all of what are UA labor relations – and they are and will get worse.
as for your accusation of fetish, it has nothing to do with leather. It has to do with Scott Kirby wanting everyone to believe that he is the smartest person in any room. IN reality, nearly all of the transformation that he has done at UA has been copied from DL.
The ONE thing he hasn’t copied and won’t is DL’s employee relations philosophy which applies to unionized and non-union employees alike.
DL pays its people well, treats them well, and expects them to take better care of their COMMON customers – which they do.
Profit sharing is only part of the equation.
UA FAs are just the latest in Kirby’s brand of labor relations which was established at AA and US.
This won’t be a pleasant or quick process to get a contract.
The notion that UA customers won’t pay a price is as naive as it comes.
I admire that Tim never gives up. And if DL FAs (and baggage handlers) vote again, soon, I suppose we’ll see what happens.
On the lighter side, can we all at least admit that the (synthetic) leather in modern aircraft seats is far superior to the old wool upholstery from yesteryear?
@1990
Lol to the leather seats segue
Bravo.
Certainly more lumbar support
1990,
it is actually you that I am surprised keeps at this line of thinking.
DL employees have had more than enough opportunities to bring in unions.
They also rate their own employer far better than most airline employees do.
Every time there is a discussion about the failure of union-mgmt relations at ANOTHER airline, the idea keeps being raised that DL employees should embrace unions.
I like reading you man, but that is one of the most bizarre lines of logic.
Let’s see how the west coast, Hawaii, Alaska and countries along the Pacific Rim fare due to the tsunami from this massive earthquake off the coast of NE Russia.
It’s stuff like this that SHOULD remind us that there really are real threats that do matter.
@1990. No. The herringbone wool seats in Pan Am’s Clipper Class were beyond cooling, comfortable, durable & quite stylish. On top of that the saddle or navy leather headrests were a very classy touch.
“democracy in action”
Extortion, begging, and grift by union leaders isn’t democracy, quite the opposite.
Lock them out. Short term pain, long term gain. Unions are dead weight on society.
So this is where all the cool cats are hanging out tonight, eh?
Yes @Tim Dunn, I just saw the news — hoping for the best. 8.8, wow.
@ 1990 — Hurry and get the AED ready for Lil Timmy! He’s losing it over the quick DOT approval of the B6/UA merger, I mean, partnership!
What a bunch of whiners! How much does one need to be paid to serve some drinks in the sky?