For a decade SkyMiles has charged an astronomical number of miles to fly on Delta. Using Delta miles to travel on their partners remained a value, even if SkyMiles kept raising those prices, because partner awards are generally all saver awards.
- An airline might offer all or most of its seats for miles, treating the miles as money, and charging according to the price of a ticket. So a $5,000 ticket might cost 500,000 miles (or more).
- But partner airlines usually offer only the seats they don’t expect to sell, and at a deep discount. So you spend 57,500 American AAdvantage miles to fly Iberia business class each way to Europe, or 80,000 AAdvantage miles to fly business class each way to Australia.
American and United followed Delta’s path of ridiculous pricing for their own flights, especially in business class. You might spend 350,000 – 700,000 for American Airlines business class roundtrip to Australia, and they simply don’t make lower-priced seats available.
But Delta said ‘hold my beer’ because even when those saver partner award seats are available, they now price those seats as though you were flying Delta.
You can still get good value out of MileagePlus and AAdvantage traveling on partners. You can no longer get value out of Delta miles traveling on partners, unless you’re traveling between countries Delta does not serve. For instance flying between Mexico City and Europe or Asia works, while traveling to and from the United States has become ridiculous.
If you’ve wanted to get value out of SkyMiles you’ve needed to (1) usually fly coach, and (2) luck out with one of their ‘flash sales’ on domestic routes and travel to the Caribbean.
Even coach travel, though, is no longer reasonable even when it’s seats that are likely to go unsold. Legendary FlyerTalk member tvl4free who has been watching fares and award seats for decades pointed out that Delta sometimes now charges over 500,000 miles one way for coach travel. It’s actually worse than what he notes.
Immediately some members of SkyMiles leapt to Delta’s defense, pointing out that you often now pay more for one-way awards than half the cost of a roundtrip (another form of devaluation)! But digging into his example of Dallas – Bangkok this are… really bad for anyone engaged in the SkyMiles program.
First, yes, 505,000 miles one way in economy for Dallas – Bangkok (Delta to New York, connecting onward with Saudia):
To be clear, that’s not always what the award costs. A one way coach award can sometimes be booked for ‘only’ 100,000 miles one way.
So let’s be fair and look roundtrip. Having to book roundtrip awards to avoid a penalty is a huge hit to the program, so how much does a roundtrip cost? 605,000 miles in coach, 935,000 miles in business class. And remember this is flying long haul on a partner airline, not ‘buying a ticket with miles’.
Just to make sure that the Delta flight to New York wasn’t the problem, I looked at New York – Bangkok on Saudia. That was a little cheaper… and oddly, business class was less than coach. Which almost for a second made me think that business class was a value here at 390,000 miles one way. Oy!
And to look at a roundtrip, again in case booking one-ways is the problem here, and looking just at the partner award flights: 513,000 miles roundtrip in coach, 765,000 miles roundtrip in business class.
This isn’t a matter of piecing together illogical flights. These are offered up as choices, and in some cases the only choices, for New York – Bangkok. And this isn’t the old ‘Delta’s just not good for business class awards, you can still get good value on partner airlines and most people fly coach anyway.’
The way people used to make excuses for Delta are gone. Partner awards are no longer a way to get value. Giving up on an aspirational use of miles to let you fly in a style you couldn’t afford with money, and just flying coach, doesn’t get you value here.
If you’re saying ‘well sometimes you can fly to Bangkok in coach for 100,000 miles one way’ you aren’t defending the program you are indicting it. SkyMiles doesn’t respect you. They’re generating $5.5 billion from American Express and Delta is laughing at you most of the time that you search for an award on their website.
To be clear, United and American both charge exorbitant rates for business class international travel on their own flights. Occasionally United will drop ‘saver award’ space, usually to London or to another Star Alliance hub like Frankfurt or Brussels. The way to get value with those programs remains booking on partner airlines – for now. They might be tempted to follow Delta’s lead, if Delta can get away with this.
The way to play the game with frequent flyer miles is transferable points, bank programs that let you move points into numerous foreign frequent flyer programs – like Air Canada’s Aeroplan; Turkish Miles & Smiles; Cathay Pacific Asia Miles; Air France KLM Flying Blue and more.
Its rough using Delta miles. I do have some and hope that one day I can book something with them.
This is the beginning of the end for points, miles, and frequent flyer programs altogether. They’re making it so meaningless that you truly have to be a sucker to have earning loyalty status or rewards play any role in your travel planning.
The bottom line is that miles on airlines are worthless. And not even sure how much status is worth anymore; unless you are flying over 200,000 miles per year. Then staying with one airline may be worth while for potential upgrades. Otherwise shop airfares and find the airline that offers the best price in whatever class of service you are interesting flying. More than likely you will be flying different airlines in order to get the best airfare during any given year.
750k RT to ATH in D1 from almost every city in the continental US during about a month’s time this fall for 2 weeks. Doesn’t matter if you are originating in LAX, SFO, SEA, JFK, BOS, ATL, ORD or a smaller airport in between. Redemptions more than doubled in less than 5 days this past week.
What a joke.
It is a Sad, Sad Day for Delta Airlines! As a Plat Medallion member, Million Miler, AND Stock Holder-I was Very Disappointed/Shocked last week when I checked the number of SkyMiles required for potential future travel! Give us Free Wi-Fi and Double-Triple the number of SkyMiles required for a flight on DL? No Thanks!
All this madness will end if all bloggers/pimps take the “I will not mention Delta ever” pledge. Don’t refer, don’t comment, don’t recommend ANY Delta cards/miles etc.
Starting with you, @garyleff 🙂
Here’s your post from Feb 17 “If you aren’t a Delta American Express co-brand customer, you should now get one”
Get one? Why? So you can spend 500K miles on a single one way redemption?
This is blogger malpractice, but kudos to you for pointing out the stupidity of ever bothering to earn a single SkyZimDollar
@Thing 1 is right…and this article highlights it too. At some point there will be a mass exodus from miles/points cards because of tactics like the ones Delta uses and all the other airlines seem to be moving towards. I still justify the transferable point cards when there are enough benefits and included, but even that’s getting watered down. When even the up front bonus won’t get you a round trip economy ticket, why bother? I’m closer day by day to just getting a flat % reward card because their is just no equal value to the miles you get through airline specific cards. If I’m not able to get at least 2 cents per mile during a redemption, why wouldn’t I just go with a 2% cash back? Less headache…and I don’t feel like the goal post is always being loved (something Delta has pioneered!). It does make me sad, as I once loved the aspiration of it all…
@ Gary — Do business with crooks and you get stolen from.
I’m glad to have burned all my Delta miles. 10 years or so ago I redeemed 120k Delta miles on a RT angled lie flat to Vietnam on Korean Air and while I would’ve wanted a fully lie flat, that was still a considerably better redemption than what I’ve since seen from Delta. Their greed is disgusting and unsustainable as a loyalty program.
They should be called Sky rupees instead.
OK everybody, calm down.
1.) SkyMiles are great for booking travel at ~1.3cpp, give or take, on any DL domestic flight. Treat them like Southwest points.
2.) There’s still plenty of room to get great value out of AA miles and UA miles, and on OW/*A partners.
Saying “award travel is dead” is lazy. Award travel isn’t dead, it’s just different. When saver transatlantic/transpacific J is no longer bookable with partners on an award chart is the day that aspirational award travel will die. That day is not today or even close to today.
Fools calling SkyMiles worthless. It’s incredibly easy to get 1.5c per mile value out of them if you’re willing to use them for domestic coach flights.
Frequent flyers need to be getting the most attention. Ditch the credit card holders & stick with paying frequent flyers. Most of the cc holders don’t pay for their own travel anyways and blog and post and moan on & on about quality anyways. The days of non paying frequent flyer perks are coming to an end as they rightly should. Get ahold of yourselves people, the skies are crowded and the airlines want to make money. Once the airlines get rid of all the ridiculous perks that non paying passengers consume and complain about, they can clear out those crowded lounges & get back to doing the flying and serve their true frequent fliers.
Good timing. I went searching for awards tickets Honolulu to Guam for my diver daughter.
Thought I’d need medical intervention. Delta was insane. AA was on the range of doable if I start charging everything to that card.
Along with the useless companion ticket because we don’t fly economy, looks like I’m saying so long to my Delta card this year.
The awards pricing is so insane, it’s not even worth it to get to our international jump off point. We always fly FC or business since we are underwater photographers and have multiple checked bags. Looks like it will just be cheaper to pay for a 2nd bag.
Fun while it lasted. I got some nice international awards tickets back in the day. No more.
That prediction will definitely become true if UA and AA copy DL on this monstrosity. It is as if DL, confident that it could kill its “golden goose” and remain profitable while neither UA nor AA could afford to do the same, is setting a trap for them. One can only hope that they won’t fall in it because if they do, it would spell the end of FF loyalty programs as we’ve known them…
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I don’t think that other commenter is wrong about you taking commissions from Delta. At this point you genuinely could be contributing to industry-wide decline if you keep taking their money and boosting their card. This is insane, and they’re not going to stop until they start seeing a measurable decline in sign-ups / start hearing from their advertising channels , “I’m sorry but I can’t ethically continue to promote your product.”
18 years ago, I booked 2 business class RTs from Chicago to Sidney, 90k each, on United and I thought that was a lot! I bet it is at least 2 or 3 times that now.
Delta Sky-Pesos are as useless as a screen door on a submarine.
I am ashamed to say that we both have 125-150k SkyPesos, dating back years, but we’ve never burned them because their value proposition was ALWAYS inferior to the much greater number of UA, AA and WN miles we’ve had. Figured I’d find some inter-European AF award one day, or something using Vietnam airways (we scored two one-ways once, with DL pesos), but my hopes for even an SFO-JFK nonstop or SFO-midwest one-stopper have ALWAYS evaporated when I looked for value. The program has just been a ripoff since the 90s, compared to their competitors.
I am, however, aghast at what the COVID years have shown for international trips in Business, either DL or its partners. 125k has not yielded a “free” trip (even one way) that wasn’t beaten badly by their competitors.
I made a decision about 8 years ago to “pick Delta last” on any trips I took. I thus have no elite status with them and have not built up more mileage than I had then. But I can’t seem to use it. Just a piss-poor program, and now getting *worse*. Unbelievable.
Picking out anecdotal cities and dates to make a point on any of the top 10 airline’s networks other than to generate clicks is worthless.
You could come up with $2000 fares even on Delta’s domestic system but that doesn’t mean anyone pays anywhere near that amount.
Delta and every other airline publishes the number of awards, miles, and revenue from FF award burn which allows anyone to calculate the average award. Care to help us out w/ those numbers, Gary, or do you prefer hysteria?
ps you do realize that BKK is an offline city for Delta and EVERY US airline?
@Jay C The loyalty program of these airlines are worth north of $10 billion dollars. I’d be willing to guess that a good amount of that comes from selling miles to credit card companies.
Like it or not, the days of rev pax reaping all the rewards are done and gone. Airlines are going to continue to cater to the credit card market because that’s where their real money comes from…not from rev pax occasionally paying for premium cabins.
Face it, the miles rich and cash poor will be amongst you always…you may as well get used to it.
Delta isn’t interested in giving away ultra-discounted tickets to the points and miles crowd, if you don’t like it you can always go with other airline programs? And if the other airlines go that route too, doesn’t that just mean it was dumb for them to be giving away ultra-discounted tickets?
I flew back to Phoenix from HND last week on Delta metal using 30,000 Skymiles. One way economy with a stop in Los Angeles… 13.5 hours.
Bit of a counterpoint: I am just a “regular flyer” (in Coach) and my CC charges (on various cards), etc., keep me in enough points to get me the modest, economy tix I use to keep my ol’ Senior self traveling to visit family and friends. I just booked a simple OW from ABQ to LAX on Delta (main cabin) for 11,400 SM. That is how I use the points. If I ever have the good fortune to travel overseas, I’ll likely just save the money and actually buy a ticket…it’s not everyone’s “cuppa tea,” of course, but it works for me.
@Tim Dunn – Bangkok is a major world city, every major airline offers awards there, and Delta has several partners that fly there. Partner awards are the BEST value in other frequent flyer programs, so a look at how Delta is treating those now makes sense. And they lit the value of those on fire over the past few months, which likely isn’t widely understood which is why it is worth covering.
And the idea that where Delta flies internationally you’re going to get bargains from SkyMiles is… certainly one perspective. It’s usually only true for close-in international and domestic.
And how many dick-heads fell for the “ooh-ooh” Delta credit card offers on your channel? Huh?
DL is doing things right: spending money on a better travel experience instead of a crappy experience but ultra-low rewards for the cheapo points crowd.
Their financials (much better than UA and eons ahead of AA) and passenger revenue for mile (how much people are actually paying for the service) confirm this. Not to mention their much higher customer satisfaction in ALL large scale surveys.
Fell for? Read what I wrote. (1) that they have larger than usual bonuses, (2) that if you are going to engage in the skymiles ecosystem you now need to do so with a card, but (3) for goodness sakes it’s not a card for your ongoing spend.
I have been 100% consistent on SkyMiles, for many years. I’m literally the person who coined the term Skypesos. In 2009. (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13017590-post2.html)
“Fools calling SkyMiles worthless. It’s incredibly easy to get 1.5c per mile value out of them if you’re willing to use them for domestic coach flights.”
And even easier to get two cents value charging to a Capital One Spark card. So who is the fool?
@Tim Dunn – Brave argument to pull the anecdotal evidence card at this point. If the industry data you mentioned are available, then present them to make your case. Otherwise, I just searched up a one-way JFK to MXP in mid-August, which is a trip I actually need to make, and is already booked (i.e. a real-world example, at least for me). For business, Delta prices 350,000 SkyMiles – that’s the minimum, it goes up from there – American prices 57,500 AAdvantage miles.
It’d be silly for anyone to argue Delta comes ahead of AA on some reliability statistics or JD Power customer satisfaction surveys or whatever, somehow justifying the price multiple. Maybe there’s some historical precedent there, but (a.) I’d argue that just about any lead in satisfaction ranking is market sentiment lagging the actual state of affairs today, and (b.) how ever much better you may think Delta is, in no world are they 7× better. That’s ludicrous.
“Fell for? Read what I wrote. (1) that they have larger than usual bonuses, (2) that if you are going to engage in the skymiles ecosystem you now need to do so with a card, but (3) for goodness sakes it’s not a card for your ongoing spend.
I have been 100% consistent on SkyMiles, for many years. I’m literally the person who coined the term Skypesos. In 2009. (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13017590-post2.html)”
Yes, but surely you can do better. Just start all articles on Delta with a Surgeon General’s warning FIRST. Or ideally, quit pimping anything that earns SkyZim$.
Friends don’t let friends earn SkyZim$ 🙂
Delta killed international business/first award travel for its own customers, which is always where the true value was. If there are any exceptions to that, please post them, because I still have around 1,000,000 SkyPesos to burn. Every time that I tried to use them, for the last five years, there was a much lower redemption opportunity on another airline. I was going to burn some of them on Saudia last year, and then that went away. Seriously, is there anything left?
One of my biggest mistakes in this hobby was not booking a 75k award for 2 people to fly F from DC to Hawaii (plus hotel and car vouchers). Those were the days (c.1996)
Honestly I feel sorry for anyone who lives at a DL fortress hub (specifically ATL, MSP, DET, SLC) and is essentially forced to fly DL due to routing or corp contracts. When I fly UA at least I know I’m earning miles that have value. The marginally better soft product on DL does not make up for the useless skypesos
You seriously have to wonder about the sanity of anyone who spend $1 on an Amex Delta card beyond the SUB requirement.
I disagree that only travel bloggers can stop this crazy devaluation. I have two mile-earning cards, and I really only use one and only for travel on that airline for the premium benefits associate with that card. Neither are DL cards. I plan on sending letters or emails to VP’s at both banks, they are both listed on LinkedIn explaining that I have stopped using their cards because of mile devaluations, and asking them why they are ok bankrolling airlines by buying miles from airlines that are then devalued, grossly in some cases, when the customers try to use them.
Surely they should be concerned that the airlines are doing this? With each devaluation, the product the banks are using to entice new customers to sign up and existing customers to spend. Surely, the banks will want a guaranteed return on their investment? Look at all the people here talking about switching to a 2% cashback card. The more people who do this, the more customers the banks offering miles will lose and the more they will regret their decision not to insist on a guarantee their investment will not be devalued.
DL is by far the worst offender and I agree with Luke (I usuallu do) that while they are a good airline, they are not 7X as good. This is a big issue as most of the respondents agree aside from a few apologists who seem to not care about throwing money away. I can understand occasional reasonable price increases, most people can. I will not accept an increase from 57500 that shoots up suddenly to 300,000 or more. UA and AA have done this on some routes, even though DL’s increases are even crazier.
What about the Pay With Miles program where Amex Delta cardholders can pay for their Delta travel with sky miles on the Delta website at 1 cent per mile and pay miles and cash if needed?
The outsized value isn’t there but for people who earn a lot of miles with a sign up bonus, it is a way to use miles. If award travel charges 2 or 3x the cash fare equivalent, the Pay With Miles program makes sense.
We fly CHA (Chattanooga) to AUA (Aruba) during the same week in June almost every year. The amount of DL SkyMiles required for a Main Cabin ticket has gone from 40-45K to 125-130K during the past 3-years. Fly out of ATL (Atlanta) you say? No real savings there. A 6-hr, 275 mile round trip commute saves 10K SkyMiles. Enough Said!
Typo Edit
“With each devaluation, the product the banks are using to entice new customers to sign up and existing customers to spend” *Become less attractive to the banks’ customers.*
Gary,
then compare awards for the exact same time period for all 3 US programs to the SAME OFFLINE city and then do it again 5 times – and you MIGHT begin to make your point.
Luke,
In case you missed it, summer is peak travel to Europe.
Delta NEVER said that there would be best mileage award availability to ANY destination.
Cherrypicking a destination and a handful of dates in any program is meaningless other than to create the endless chain of people to argue about how worthless Skymiles is – because that is the program that Gary thinks most disadvantages its customers.
Again, Gary, Delta and every other publicly traded US airline publishes the number of awards they give, the miles and value of awards – which means it is easily possible to calculate the average value of awards.
Do the work, Gary, and use your brain instead of just cherrypicking data to create clicks.
Around a decade ago I was a fanatical Skymiles fan. Then Delta devalued, then devalued again, again, again, and many more times beyond that. Delta shoving a big middle finger in the faces of loyal members like me became tiresome when they did it so very many times as a thanks for our continued loyalty. I just burned my last big hunk of Skymiles a few days ago and while I’m a little sad for what once was I’m thrilled to be free of the program.
Today, I tried to find an award seat on UA, AA, DL, AS. Only DL was crazy despite being flexible with dates.
SkyMiles then SkyPesos, now SkyRupiahs. US$1 = 15,000 Indonesian Rupiahs. US$1,000 = 15 million Indonesian rupiahs.
The banks DO NOT CARE if the airlines devalue their miles. That’s the best case scenario really: Customers ditch the airline cards and get the bank’s card instead.
Tim it’s not cherrypicking when you see groundhog day every day.
I check DL every time I am booking award travel. And again and again until I decide to buy the ticket. In every instance it always requires at least 2x more miles than UA or AA. Over the past decade I have used UA and AA miles to book 60-75k one-way biz class to various destinations in Europe, Japan, Israel. DL has never displayed a price <200k skypesos. I do tend to fly peak dates but that doesn't seem to hinder my ability to find seats on UA, AA and their partners.
The DL fanboys tout the bargain on US economy fares. But will never use miles to fly domestic as I can do better with a 2% cash back card.
@ Tim Dunn
“Cherrypicking a destination and a handful of dates in any program is meaningless other than to create the endless chain of people to argue about how worthless Skymiles is – because that is the program that Gary thinks most disadvantages its customers”
In fairness to Gary, the key point is that “partner awards” used to be priced at a set rate (as is generally the norm across many airline loyalty program, even those with dynamic pricing and discontinued award charts) and now have become fully dynamic for some routes for “partner awards”. The change in DL’s approach has been discussed in travel blog sphere for a couple of months already. I have to agree with some commentators that it is troubling that such a change in thinking could permeate further into pricing of partner awards both in DL and other loyalty programs.
That said, every airline loyalty programs has its strengths and weaknesses. From that perspective, I would concur with your good self, Tim, that valid and balanced comparisons are informative.
For balance, there are other troubling developments – e.g. Virgin Australia demands a carrier charge (around USD100 per premium sector) when redeeming Velocity points for SQ redemptions whereas SQ doesn’t charge them at all (and the actual YQ is only SGD10s on paid airfares). Apparently, it’s a straight up cash grab. That said, it’s still possible for find outsize value in Velocity if one focuses on the program strengths.
The carrier charges on QF redemptions on QF bear no relation to the cited YQs on paid airfares. Again, apparently another cash grab, pure and simple. And yet, it is still possible find outside value in QF Frequent Flyer if one focuses on the program strengths.
Now for those with SkyMiles, there are still diverse opportunities for partner redemptions at more traditional redemption rates. There is still value in the system. That reality is in evidence when focusing on the strengths of SkyMiles. I just found a variety of business class partner award seats on the DL website at the old school pricing.
Once again, to be fair to Gary, he does conclude by advocating the benefit of a mixed approach. Those who are locked into a one-airline mentality and obsessed with status are going to lose out whenever programs change faster than expectation. If we are ready and able to harness the strengths of each program we can step outside a glass half full mindset.
Adapt, be flexible, there’s more to engaging in airline loyalty programs than credit cards and status…;)
Love him or hate him, @Tim Dunn is correct when he says that bloggers spend time intentionally pick routes that make for terrible redemptions for the sake of encouraging conflict and arguments amongst readers.
I’d be willing to bet that @Gary and others sift through many routes until they find one that will stoke the anger of many just for the sake of doing so.
For every route that he picks to fit his narrative and piss folks off, he could easily find one that works to the benefit of those redeeming SkyMiles.
Unfortunately actually producing content that is worth conversing about is rarely found here anymore.
VFTW is beginning to be an anger inducing, travel tabloid that fixates on pushing stupid narratives or dumb that crap idiots on planes do for attention.
Welcome to VFTW, the TMZ of aviation.
Re: the Gary-bashing. I have no dog in this fight. I actually like Delta. I have spent the last year trying to redeem points for cross-country and international flights to both Asia and Europe. Delta did not have good value on **any** of my searches across multiple destinations and multiple time-frames.
My experience has been consistent with what many others here are saying: Redemption value for Skymiles sucks. Sure, there are other things for which one can praise Delta. But not Skymiles.
They stopped providing wheelchairs at curb, caused a spill that will take me months to cure. I PLANNED FOR EUROPE, NOW I SEE TRAVELS ARE PROHIBITED FOR ME PERMANENTLY. I ALWAYS USED SKY MILES. I AGREE THEY HAVE GONE OUT OF THEIR MINDS. AND NOW, NO RESPONSE AFTER THEY BROKE UP MY BODY! I AN DONE WITH DELTA!
Maybe I just got lucky but I was able to grab two coach seats in November from JFK-FCO for a trip this month for 42K each. And in terms of partner awards, Delta essentially dares you to fly their metal unless you want to pay up big. JFK-CPH was $500 cheaper with an AF/KLM combo than just DL. Mileage awards. similarly proportioned.
Others have said it: you as a blogger posting “good deals” on Airlines, well, they don’t look at it that way. A deal if it isn’t good for THEM is an inefficiency…and their MBAs will get to work closing the loopholes.
Yet here you are promoting airline credit cards to get the mileage bonus.
@ Jake — Better travel experience on DL? Linea to enter SkyClubs, 34 inch pitch and gummy bears in place of hot meals in F. The experience sucks nowadays.
It seems that many airlines follow Delta’s insane prices for J awards. United,AA – 300-400K OW in J on their own metal.
But I also looked at AF, JFK-CDG. While you can find 55K-73K awards, for some days they ask for 700K – one way!
I don’t fly DL primarily because its loyalty program is punitive. While sky-high redemptions at UA and AA exist, with some advance planning and some aptitude, you can find good deals, particularly when you book in advance. (well in advance). Otherwise, the best way to abuse Delta is to redeem points on its partners, specifically AF, where it is pretty easy and mileage requirements in Flying Blue are more reasonable.
1.3 to 1.5c per point for domestic redemptions IS OF ZERO INTEREST to anyone who has redeemed for international business travel before.
Gary,
Many kudos to you again for your brave exposure of the Bastian and Co. obnoxious policies related to their frequent flyers program.
I keep wondering who in right mind would spend 500K on one-way ECONOMY ticket to Thailand?! Sometimes I think that somebody really crazy sits at their skymies desk and puts whatever number he/she feels on any given day, obviously hoping there would be an idiot or two out there who would take up that offer…
I think Delta believes that they can get away with that because most likely the vast majority of their SM members use their miles for DOMESTIC travel, where I think Delta stays relatively competitive with other airlines (as you know, their main hub in Atlanta is predominantly domestic, and it’s relatively weak on international…
We, who live in Atlanta, are pretty unlucky in terms of international travel because Delta has essentially monopolized the international–especially European–market. For example, O’Hara hosts 34 international carriers, Miami 28, Atlanta 14 (even though that Atlanta is presumably the busiest airport in the world–again, because of its domestic travelers..)
Please continue to expose obnoxious practices of Delta and other airlines in terms of their frequent flyer programs… Unfortunately, other bloggers like Point Guy, OMAT and the like, for some reasons, thoroughly avoid criticizing the airlines and their card sponsors…
Sam
Atlanta
Something recently with Delta is their Delta Gift Card Marketplace hasn’t worked since October. When operational one could get near 1 cent per mile and sell the gift cards on raise for about .82 cents after fees and costs. Since Covid I used that option twice to extract value from sign up bonuses as I feel safer with cash fares for rebooking and recourse reasons in J.
Delta is Dead to me. I avoid Delta and Spirit for different reasons.
Delta started dynamic award pricing which is tied to revenue management and not fixed prices.
They have operated the most profitable international network of the big US 3.
They have the most valuable loyalty program and the highest revenue contribution from their credit card partner in the world.
When Delta see signs that the formula they are using quits working and they fall from their position of leadership, they will change.
As long as they are in a position of leadership, others around the world will follow.
Choosing anything based on what YOU think you will get out of it unless it is clearly spelled out in writing (and loyalty programs provide no guarantee of when or how you will be able to redeem awards) is a fools errand
I don’t get the argument “I would never book an economy award using miles because I can do better using a cash back card.”
When you earn the majority of miles by flying, or through activities designed to enhance flying (i.e. spending for elite status), what does citing a 2% cash back card have to do with anything?
Like I have said many times – last year, I burned more Delta miles than anything else, primarily on transcon, transpacific (or maybe half-pacific, Hawaii) and transatlantic flights. I got tons of value. Now my Skymiles account is low – I will build back up via flying, status activities, etc, and more.
@anthony, is you’re not getting 2 cents per mile in value for those bookings then a 2% cash back card is better. It’s just a mathematical calculation that delta miles almost always seem to fall well short of that standard.
If your earring but in seat miles, that’s a different story.
If it weren’t DL, I’d say it looks like a pricing error — Thursdays are not pricing any differently on the cash side, and the ~$1000 cash fare would normally equate to 100,000 skymiles. However, the DL computers never lie, and never make mistakes. But, yeah, the only real value I’ve gotten out of DL miles are for domestic flights on partner airlines.
“86 Reasons to get the Delta Amex Cards NOW”
click Click CLICK – it’s ALL about the conversions
And the airline “loyalty” fraud continues.
Loyalty is a one-way street.
Loyalty programs are a bait-and-switch scam.
@Sergey – Air France/KLM still seems to have reasonable availability for international business-class flights. I booked with Air France miles four times last year. Turkish Airlines also seems to offer reasonable availability. Anyone see any others?
DEL-JFK route too ! Economy one stop flights for half a million points.
All I can hope is that Delta pays Tim Dunn in SkyPesos.
Well, I have long resolved that airlines frequent flyer programs are nothing but hoax. Much to my chagrin, I am stuck with hundreds of thousands of UA and AA miles, so is my wife. We were lured into these programs when 110K/130K AA miles could get you a RT business class to Asia, and, equally importantly, seats were reasonably available.
Only a fool would stick with these programs. I still earn miles, but only incidentally, as a result of my flying on the airline.
@Anthony if you are earning miles by flying (BIS) or through credit card SUBs then of course you are free to demand less than 2% ROI if DL domestic economy awards work for you.
But many of us explicitly choose our paid BIS flights and credit card apps based on the ROI and value of the underlying currency. In most cases the value well exceeds 2% for me as I use the miles/points for TATL/TPAC biz class or expensive hotel stays. (Exceptions include Chase WN cards, but those come with other perks like companion passes that increase overall value).
As I noted above, people stuck with DL obviously have no choice but to fly DL. But those with choice would be foolish to fly DL, absent a placing a premium on the elite perks and “soft product” vs. ROI from miles. Maybe it is worth it for a top DL elite at ATL. But nobody else.
1) As I and others point out time and time again, in competitive market after competitive market, Delta outcompetes competitors, even those with superior mileage currencies. LA, Boston, NYC, coming close in Seattle, etc. Many very intelligent professionals actively choose Delta over the competition in these markets.
2) As I pointed out before – many (most?) people earning Delta miles are doing so either through flying, or by spending on a card to enhance status. I fly on Delta, and I have a Delta card – I spend 30K on my Reserve for my Status boost. Other spending goes on other cards to earn transferrable currencies.
3) It is very easy to burn SkyMiles for domestic flights, especially since you earn MQM for them and they are upgradeable. I’ve burned them, and been upgraded, on D1 transcon, to Hawaii, to Europe. Not hard
@Anthony prove it. Any of what you just said. Literally any of it. Your first point is your conjecture as a delta HQ employee, little else. If you listen to Earnings Calls, you’d realize the mileage world in key Delta markets is rampant with other carriers encroaching on Delta and growing like crazy in their strategic markets.
and @Anthony or Tim (when you inevitably jump in), make sure you include the $6B-$8B Amex revenue benefit when you talk about rasm since this article’s entire point is about the devaluation of that partnership at its heart.
MAX,
actual DOT and SEC data shows that Delta outperforms its competitors in revenue generation per seat mile.
There are good reasons why United tried and failed to get back into JFK.
Other than LAX, DL and UA do not have overlapping hubs but DL is larger in LAX and gets higher average fares.
Do you realize that even in ORD, DL gets higher average fares in the local markets from ORD to DL’s hubs other than to SEA?
and, no, MAX, other revenue including from the loyalty program, is not included in passenger RASM but it is included in Total RASM.
You also realize that the US domestic airline system was deregulated at the same time for DL as it was for UA and every other airline?
thank God, this is coming to light. I have a deltavamerican express card that I’m gonna cancel. just not worth it. aa and ua are of much more value; I recently flew from NY to medellin and back from bogita to ny with a 20 hour stop over in ft lauderdale for 40,000 miles and American recently had rountrips to paris for 45,000 miles
At this point SkyMiles only exists because Delta has to have a “loyalty” program. They would get rid of tomorrow if possible.
john,
did you miss that Delta gets $6 to $7 billion PER YEAR from Skymiles and its Amex relationship?
They have it because it makes money.
When Delta no longer gets enough money to justify keeping a loyalty program, they will drop it but despite the incessant efforts of Gary and others, more people dump more people into Delta’s pockets for its loyalty program than for any other airline in the world.
Obviously this site isn’t in the least reflective of why people choose to participate in Skymiles and have DL Amex cards.
.. more people dump more money into Delta’s pockets…
@john – No, they wouldn’t get rid of SkyMiles tomorrow if possible, American Express pays them $5.5 billion per year. SkyMiles is a profit center.
Because of his endless accolades of Delta, I wonder if Tim Dunn either an employee of Delta or gets some special benefits from posting positive reviews of Delta and its obnoxious skymiles program. If not, why wouldn’t he admit the obvious: their loyalty program is nothing more than a shameless rip-off of their gullible and ignorant customers who continue to sign up for various AMEX-Delta cards and thus supporting Delta financially (as Gary correctly pointed out)?
It’s hardly a surprise that the vast majority of visitors of this great blog, including myself, who are far more knowledgeable about various frequent flyer programs basically reject Delta’s skymiles and the AMEX credit cards linked to that airline.
P.S. I wonder what OMAT’s Ben Schlepigg an Point Guy’s Brian Kelly think about this whole matter? (probably too afraid to offend Delta and Amex)
I recently tried to use my hard-earned miles from my AMEX Delta card. Now, I am cynical about American companies at the best of times, but I was still shocked at being charged 240,000 miles for a $1,300 cash flight, which I could get on Virgin for $863….
So what I thought was a $4,000 value, settings to be closer to $1,000.
Another data point for my assertion that the American consumer is the most abused consumer on the planet.
sam
I am not loyal to any airline’s FF program although I do participate in them – just as I do grocery store and some retail companies.
The financial numbers don’t lie and they are reported comparably between US companies to show the difference.
Delta simply is able to generate the most revenue from its loyalty program of any airline in the world.
I totally get the sentiment of people but they clearly are not the prevailing mindset of Delta customers or Delta couldn’t be generating the revenue it does.
The question is why American and United have not figured out what Delta has.
Tim,
The issue here is not the financial results (yes, you’re correct: Delta may have better results than other major airlines but I think not BECAUSE of their loyalty program but IN SPITE of it… I think they achieve those results because they dominate domestic market on the east coast, due to the total –and I would say, corrupt domination– of the Atlanta airport, which is, as you know, technically the busiest in the world.
The real issue here is that what I believe the Delta’s insane mileage requirements for award travel on international routes, something that Gary has correctly pointed out, and I must say, is shared by other people who posted in this blog.
That’s exactly why your defense of Delta’s FF program looked so suspicious to me.
You’re clearly an intelligent person knowledgeable in this area. Then why not to denounce Delta, like almost every one else here, instead of lauding their financial results, generated in no small part by its link with Amex, which in turn, attract a huge number of totally ignorant Delta customers who don’t care about the international aspect of their FF program.
In that respect I commend Gary for trying to education people about the vile nature of Delta’s FF program. I only wish other major blogs, like Point Guy and OMAT would join him in this effort.
sam
Financial results DO drive what Delta does with its loyalty program – just as it does for everything any US airline does along with everything else a for-profit company does.
Delta has clearly figured out how to get more value FOR ITSELF out of its loyalty program.
Every business transaction is a mutual exchange between a customer and a company. if neither side believes they are getting something of value
Whether you can get it or not, Delta has figured out a formula that better balances what its customers want vs. what Delta has to do to HELP ITSELF.
I may or may not be intelligent but what I bring to these discussions is perspective which you and others that solely focus on what you can get from Skymiles and use a couple of international markets as an example to make your point. (and Gary does the same thing).
Delta and each of the big 3 serve well over 100 million customers per year. Picking out a few anecdotes doesn’t prove anything other than get a pile on effect of people that think the same thing as Gary – who doesn’t even fly Delta enough to have any status.
There are multiple people that have participated in this discussion that have said they have figured out how to get value out of Skymiles so they clearly don’t agree with you – but I am suspicious because I have the perspective that you clearly don’t?
I have repeatedly asked Gary to calculate the average award value for each of the big 3 US airlines but all he does is repeatedly throw out anecdotes. That information is available and yet Gary is more than happy to throw out anecdotes.
As for whether ATL is corrupt or not, you’re going to have to write a whole lot more to prove your point about DL’s presence there affecting competition. ATL complies with federal airport access laws as does every AA, DL and UA hub.
The fact that Delta has built a network that generates higher revenue per seat mile than American or United says that Delta has done a better job of running its business.
And Delta is the largest airline in NYC by local passengers carried as well as in LAX – both of which are 2 of the 3 largest markets in the US and both cities are highly competitive.
Maybe the reason why OMAT and other sites don’t dish on Skymiles is because they know there is no valid argument that they can make.
If customers don’t like what Delta is doing, they will change their behavior. Delta will figure it out and either adapt or lose the revenue. It’s really not a hard concept to understand.
Delta’s FF program has basically devolved into a bait-and-switch. Those of us who were paying attention believed that we were participating in a program to get as much as 10 cents per mile in value through international business/first travel on a worldwide network; instead, we get 1 cent a mile when Delta feels like it. Delta may have had a legal right to this, but it goes hard up against people’s sense of justice, regardless of the “terms of service.”
Whatever happened to consumer protection?
Tim,
I would try to repudiate your argument point by point.
First, you say, “…Financial results DO drive what Delta does with its loyalty program..” I think you miss the point here: “loyalty program” is not about TODAY’S revenues: it’s about creating a program that indirectly creates a revenue stream by attracting and retaining a coterie of loyal customers who provide a steady revenue stream not on only today but also in the FUTURE. Just a few years ago, Delta “pioneered” the concept of defining their award levels to the price of their cash tickets, which immediately led to the incredible increase of award mileage requirements, especially on the international markets (and you’re totally wrong, saying: “…you and others that solely focus on what you can get from Skymiles and use a couple of international markets as an example to make your point…” I wish it would be isolated cases, unfortunately it is not.
To prove that, I would challenge you to find today one-way Delta One award ticket from ATL ( or for that matter, from any major American cities: JFK, ORD, LAX) to ANY European destination for ANY date for anything between 230K to 375K miles! (Before introducing that concept of linking miles with cash, it was genrally 75K –and off -season, it was even as low as 50K flying from JFK). And I ask you: who would in right mind call up to 500% increase in mileage requirement–for just ONE ONE-WAY award ticket other than ripoff?!
Now, sadly other airlines similarly redefined their loyalty programs, which also led to a substantial increase in international award requirements for premium cabins, albeit generally not as obnoxious as Delta’s.
—
One would ask: how could Delta get way with such ripoff? (paraphrasing Bill Clinton, you can say: because it could!).
You ask for some prove in my statement about Delta’s corrupt influence on ATL airport.
First, Delta enjoys what I call, a corrupt influence on the Atlanta city government, which manages the Atlanta airport, by historically being by far the largest contributor to every member of Atlanta City Council, including its Mayors. The Delta money of course buys the influence and helps build its complete dominance of Atlanta airport, primarily in international markets and especially European ones. Here one more fact: Chicago;s ORD hosts 34 international carriers, MIA hosts 28, and ATL hosts 14. Do you still believe it is a coincidence?
Actually, I’m not only the one here who felt abysmal about flying from ATL to various international destinations. A few years ago, Kelly Yamanouchi, a transportation reporter at the biggest newspaper in town, Atlanta Journal Constitution, published an article called: “Not So Much International”, where she basically lamented the lack of international carriers hosted at ATL airport (I don’t need to tell that any business dominance leads to a lack of competition and ultimately to higher prices, and/or less convenience for Atlanta residents).
Second. Also a couple years ago, Georgia Legislature attempted to bring ATL airport under the state control. That attempt, for the reason I stated above, was met by the fieriest opposition from Delta, which at that time was in process of renewing its 30 year lease agreement with ATL airport. Delta actually threatened to move its ATL headquarters elsewhere if that proposal went through. The proposal rather predictably failed, because Delta happened to be one the biggest contributors to the state legislators as well.
As I mentioned before, domestically Delta’s SM program probably remains rather competitive because, as you correctly pointed out, competition on domestic markets is far better monitored than the international ones. Obviously, Delta still benefits from being by far the most dominant at ATL airport, which is the biggest hub for domestic travelers, but it can’t completely suppress other airlines hosted at ATL airport.
And finally: you still have not explicitly stated whether or not you’re a Delta employee, or somehow enjoys special privileges granted to you by Delta by posting favorable opinions of that airline on this, and perhaps other blogs (the fact that you’re member of other loyalty programs doesn’t prove anything).
Tim is a wanker. Clearly for Delta. But also in general.