United says they’re not worried about having too many premium seats, even if we go into recession. They can discount the premium seats and people will still buy them. And then they’ll just steal passengers from Spirit and Frontier to fill up coach with basic economy fares. That doesn’t mean, though, that they’ll make money!
Delta Air Lines says they see weak demand for coach travel right now, but no decline in premium cabin demand. Their executives believe that once passengers fly first and business class, they’ll do anything possible not to go back.
- There’s probably too much of a focus on premium cabin product, since most customers will always fly coach. There are just so many more coach seats.
- Premium doesn’t just mean premium cabin, it means offering a better experience throughout the aircraft. Before the pandemic Delta really was on a path towards premium, rolling out coursed meals, welcome drinks, and hot towels in economy. Now they’re cutting earbuds from the back cabin.
At the same time, there’s a truth here. It’s one thing to fly coach regularly when that’s all you’ve experienced. Then once you’ve flown up front you really don’t want to go back.
When I started getting upgrades in the late 90’s, I’d do anything possible to keep getting them. I used to take unnecessary connections at odd times, like flying DC to San Francisco via Denver at Noon on a Wednesday because I knew I’d be upgraded. And when a $99 mistake fare in first class fell apart on Alaska Airlines because the aircraft for my DC to Seattle flight was late, and would have forced me to misconnect, I spent an entire day obsessing over the DC to Houston to Seattle flight I got rebooked onto in back.
Somehow though I’ve softened my stance. I used to shiver at the prospect of long flights in back but I’ve changed my definition of a long flight compared to six years ago. In 2019, I was 100 pounds heavier than I am today. I started dropping pounds when I got off the road in March 2020. I’m not nearly as wide as I was back then. And it was width, more than legroom, that made me more comfortable up front (it certainly wasn’t domestic catering).
So I start to wonder about discussions like this one from premium flyers, who dread coach, just how enduring that sentiment really is?
Rapper Fat Joe doesn’t like the idea of flying economy,
This is part of my prayer every day. God please don’t put me in coach. It’s a different type of atmosphere back there.
On the other hand, MC Jada Kiss thinks no big deal, “I watch a few Law & Orders I’m there.” (Does the move by United and Delta to embrace seat back entertainment screens make trading down to coach an easier pill to swallow?)
Just how enduring are the premium Über alles sentiments – airlines would save $80 million a year if passengers were lighter but would GLP-1 drugs also reduce demand for premium products since the passengers would be smaller?
This matters because it’s core to the airline theory of premium demand that undergirds earnings forecasts and also planned retrofits of cabins to add more first and business class. 51 business class seats on new American Airlines Boeing 787-9s is a lot. 64 for United’s is even more. And domestically United has a lot of economy plus, while American is adding a row of first class to Airbus A319 and A320 aircraft (eventually).
Listen, I love me some lie-flat, especially in that 1-2-1 configuration on a newer a350 or Dreamliner, and of course, a recliner in 2-2 is better than ULCC back of the bus, but, if I’m paying for it, it’s gotta still be reasonable. 2-3x coach? Maybe. +5x. Nope. Also depends on the route. Is this NY-FL? Meh. Is it long-haul redeye 16+ hours to Asia? Oh, please, dear gosh, lie-flat.
@1990 the ‘imposter’ strikes again! The first comment wasn’t from me. I’m actually too ‘high’ (as in tall, at 6’6”) to reap the benefits of a lie flat seat. I just can’t sleep curled up in a fetal position. I can sleep just fine sitting up as long as I’ve got room for my knees, which Economy Plus offers. Cheers!
The worst part about coach is the people.
Having to sit in the back with working class blue collar proles. The kind of people I’m offended that I have to breathe the same air as. People who’s entire outfit costs less than my under shirts. I shouldn’t have to interact with them. They are the untouchable class to me.
The Indian caste system really is something we need in the west.
Walter- you must be a real cut up at your local Klan meetings….
@1990 (the second one) — Bah! I’ve only seen you around for a week or so. It’s a good year. And you seem to have good taste. 6’6 would make things challenging for any seat. I’m a bit less, so most seats work just fine for me, but I can imagine the ‘challenges’ that come with life at your ‘altitude.’ Thankfully, you have many other benefits (I’m not into dating apps, but, supposedly, the ladies seem to prefer 6’ or more.) Cheers, indeed!
@David R Miller – I see a lot of sarcasm in Walter Barry’s post but he sure got you didn’t he? BTW there are plenty of elitist wealthy people who are “progressive” but would never set foot in coach (they slum by not flying private) so not sure about the “Klan” reference.
@Walter Barry — I could not disagree more. We do not ‘need’ artificial hierarchy in the society. Besides, you’d be an untouchable anyways.
(This is the 1990 who made the first comment and has been around here since at least December 2024 using this moniker, not 6’6” @1990)
Since SW has been my regular domestic airline for 20+ years (until now that is), flying in coach isn’t a horror. And I’m no longer a road warrior thank God. For foreign travel over 4 hours I’ll book biz.
But back in the day I was a Delta Million Miler, and got upgraded almost always.
“Put me in, coach, I’m ready to play today
Look at me, I can be centerfield..”
Airlines have gone out of their way to make the economy class product so unpleasant to fly that nobody wants it. Let’s face it: premium economy is essentially what coach used to be. And–shockingly–airline economics don’t work if you fill only the premium cabin. Maybe it’s time to invest in doing something other than making economy class worse?
Congrats on the lighter you, Gary.
Tolerating coach is a small benefit
All the best
I’ve flown in the expensive seats a few times but I mostly flown in coach because it is more cost effective for me. I have also bought an extra seat for comfort a few times. That assures a farther distance from the person seated closest to me plus it allows me to turn my legs a bit to make the tighter pitch a bit more comfortable. Two coach seats together can be cheaper than the expensive seats. I’m hoping that more people demanding expensive seats leaves a lot of empty seats in coach. Sitting in upstairs coach on an Asiana A380 for a small extra payment is the the best single seat coach experience I have had.
So much drama for so little actual benefit. First class was nice when you didn’t have to pay for it (upgrades). But that ship has largely sailed. Paying just about anything for domestic first class seems silly: I’m surprised there isn’t more discussion about gaming an empty middle seat in coach (for free) that gets you about 80% of the benefit of domestic first class.
International biz class is obviously way more valuable, but the price point is usually quite silly. Again, trying to game your coach seat for free is often possible and will be reasonably comfortable if you succeed. In any event, you’re going to get to your destination at the same time, so it’s not like this is anything other than a First World Problem.
I wonder if the airlines fail to realize that isn’t not that their (most airlines) premium seats are all that great, its that their coach seats are that bad. The problem is that if they improve the coach seats (pitch, at least) then they have to charge more and they lose customers to the airlines that don’t. Ask Midwest Express and their Signature Service demise.
Walter has a point.
Congrats on losing weight, Gary! Kudos!!!
I have flown first through coach for business..on short haul flights, it really doesn’t matter. It’s only on long distance flights that the difference really matters to me. I’m more likely to not take a flight because I can’t get a window seat than anything else. Flying in the middle in ANY class is worse that flying window or aisle in coach. There have been times when they have tried to upgrade me to comfort plus in a middle seat – no thanks, I’m good.
I’ve read that premium is responsible for most of an airline’s profit, even if a minority of its revenue. I’m one of those preferring not to go back to coach flyers, normal enough weight, long legs. Premium now feels like coach was a half century ago. I’m retired, with enough, so the extra fee for pleasant instead of cramped travel is worth it, for me.
I am the 3rd in a series of imposters.
I am 5’2″
Showing my age here, but as a boomer who’s flown a pretty wide variety of aircraft pre and post regulation, the comments here strike me quite curiously.
Being a boomer, I read much about how our generation screwed everything up for future generations, and I constantly read about how compassionate and egalitarian all the generations are that came after the boomer generation.
But to read an article titled “please don’t put me in coach” and to read the comments, such as “caste system” and others about hating to sit with the “riff raff” in economy seems contrary to what those generations effuse.
It’s 90s not 90’s
When I was traveling for work (and for leisure to make a higher status level), my primary goal was to avoid a middle seat in a block of 3 or 4. I went 31 years and well over 2000 flights before I got dumped into a Premium Economy middle last fall due to a BA ticket snafu while flying AA. Fortunately it was a daytime flight (RIP AA90) and it was the bulkhead middle on the 787, so it was fine.
I would take connections, buy up to domestic F out of my own pocket, fly at different times, pick a different carrier, or even fly out of a different airport. Now I only fly for leisure and book my tickets domestically at least three weeks in advance and only fly PE/J awards internationally, so it’s not really a problem any more.
Actually, Walter’s (deemed sarcastic) comment about the class of people is spot on. It just needs to be flipped 180. The cattle in the back are the real people, the people I treasure and want to be around. Same with 2-3 star hotels over the overpriced, un-friendly to use 4 star hotels with less amenities. People pay more to not be around people like me, not for the less useful and usable accommodations where you don’t even have ice machines and your car is held hostage.
Delta has said that passengers who buy a premium cabin product have a pretty high repurchase rate. They have the data, yet obviously carriers have a lot of coach seats to fill, at least domestically.
Back in the ’90s business class was a cradle seat Transatlantic or trans Pacific.
You need to be in FIRST to get a lie flat bed.
Airlines, from ULCC to 5 Stars figured out, economy seats will always be compared to other economy seats on prices alone. The goal is to use the basic economy seats to lore cheap passengers and torture them into paying for premium economy and up. There are certain group of population, like Asians(myself) will tolerate economy no matter what and get a good deal flying.
Congrats on the weight loss! I’ve lost about 100 pounds as well since 2019 and agree, coach doesn’t really bother me. What I really want is good service, like drinks and a meal. But I no longer care about seat width.
Good job Gary. I lost 25 pounds and have plateaued at 250 currently hoping to break through this summer.
Not sure about a recession here in the US. Don’t take investment banks word for it. The anti trump economists. You can hate the guy but I wouldn’t bet against him when it comes down to business.
I only fly business class. United has expanded the cabin but decreased the service up front, significantly.
Recently went international with US domestic connection. Paid for space plus on the international flight not because I am tall but to avoid someone reclining into my lap. (space plus isn’t even premium economy)
Domestic legs no meal so just regular economy.
Yes single losing 60lbs recently economy is much more tolerable.
I just flew first class LAS – BOS. 3 first class seats open, no upgrades, premium economy was completely empty & coach has 82 available seats, no one upgraded, strange. They also announced that no one could change their seat during the flight so if you were in a 3 seat row tough.
BTW service was awful. It was a redeye and they served dinner at 11:30 which I declined. No pre take off drink service, no warmed nuts or any other snacks offered. No sparkling wine just an overly dry white. No coffee offered prior to landing. 5 flight attendants to serve so few people. I used points to upgrade when I booked but what a ripoff.
BTW Delta
Some airlines make coach very humane, even on longer flights.
Thousands of people survive it every day just fine.
The only losers here are the OPM flyers whose boss only pays for Y. Scour the internet forums, and you ll see many poor souls who are forced to fly economy every week because their corporate overlord only pays for that. They are usually the ones begging for free upgrades with their OPM elite status…. and heading back to Y week after week, because the airlines have gotten much better at selling their premium seats
I remember flying to Europe in the late 80s/90s when you had a 50/50 shot in economy of having no one sitting next to you. Two checked bags and decent width and pitch. In economy flying Swiss BOS to ZRH I got upgraded to business 60% of the time
That being said it isn’t the seat – I’m 6’4 235 – that makes me flee economy or economy +. It’s the people/boarding/deplaning/people.
My first flight. UA BOS to EWR. 90% of the plane was wearing suits/business dress and the FAs somehow found time to serve economy toasted bagels with cream cheese. Mid 1980s.
I was lucky enough to be offered an upgrade to first class on Virgin back in 2015. I still remember when my stewardess came over to put the table both on my tray table. “Hi, I’m Babs, can I get you something to drink?” ” I’m sorry did you say your name is Babs?”. I’ve flown first class/business transatlantic ever since. There’s no going back for me. Only flying Delta.
And that Walter troll is a POS.
At least with AA if you pay for an upgrade and you have irregular operations you may or may not be accommodated in first IME. What YOU have to do is get online and see which alternate flights (even if it means taking a connection) have first class seats open. You can also view the upgrade list on the app. If you’re put on the upgrade list you won’t go to the bottom like a standby put get put based upon your status and spend.
“Airlines have gone out of their way to make the economy class product so unpleasant to fly that nobody wants it.” I’ve heard this mantra in blogs like this before, and I call it pure BS by people who don’t understand business, but like a good conspiracy theory. Under this “logic,” they’d do things like 1) make bathrooms or gallies larger to justify reduced legroom, 2) make aisles wider to reduce seat width, 3) remove screens from regular coach, or 4) reduce Y pitch to Ryannair specs to make premium seats roomier. Coach is lousy because if I offer greater legroom, I loose seats. But, the Y pax won’t pay extra for that. People say the want better Y, but they show on a daily basis few will pay extra for better (e.g., Y+ doesn’t sell out before Y). Chain pizzas are lousy because making a better pizza is more costly. If I spend more to make a better pizza and charge more, consumers will complain about my prices, eat the chain pizza, and complain about its quality.
Adrian:
Nope.
It’s ’90s ( ‘ contraction of ##90)
So…
It’s in the 90s today. (temp)
It was in the ’90s when that happened. (date)
In his 90s Joe slowed down and rarely exceeded the 70s; I’ll bet Joe’ s passengers were relieved. (age, speed, contraction, possession)
Gary,
Like you, I managed to lose the girth. In my case, it was 70 pounds. While I can now be somewhat comfortable in coach, I always smiled and said thanks when the Eastern, Continental and UA upgrades happened. But, as the airlines hoped, once wooed with lie flat, I was hooked. Now retired, we can afford to fly long haul biz and occasional FC.
I’ve never even sat anywhere but Economy and I can still tell you I wish I could afford anything else. Longest we’ve had to deal with so far is 8 hours to Europe but that last 2-3 hours is just…ugh. 6′ 200# and these seats are just torture devices.
So there ae multiple @1990 contributors? This actually explains a lot.