Last week $1395 business class roundtrips between New York and Paris. That’s a lot less than most airlines normally charge, but is it a good deal?
John in the comments says it’s not. It’s stupid, even.
That is so expensive lol, for that amount you can buy 3 Economy round trips, what’s the point of having a bigger seat and an hypocrite flight attendant serving you.
People traveling business are so stupid, they could have so much more fun by spending this extra money during their actual days at destination . Especially stupid during a day flight when you don’t care about being able to lie down on a flat seat .
It’s true business seat is convenient to sleep but on New York to Paris you barely have 4/5 hour to sleep between the meals.
And as for a business trip paid by your company, the latter is so stupid to lose so much money for such stupid comfort.
I’ve purchased paid business class mistake fares, like the $33 plus tax Alitalia fare between Toronto and Cyprus with stopovers in Italy. I’ve purchased business class sale fares on British Airways, where a ~ $1600 fare gets reduced by the $400 AARP discount and then you could buy down more of the fare spending British Airways Avios at a promo price.
But I’ve never spent $4000 or $10,000 on an airline ticket. Just like I’ve never spent $500 on a hotel room.
At the same time, I’ve traveled on very expensive flights — in first class on airlines like Etihad, Emirates, Singapore, Cathay Pacific, Qantas, Lufthansa, Thai, Asiana, ANA, British Airways, Air Tahiti Nui, United, American and more. And I’ve stayed at very expensive hotels like Al Maha Desert Resort and the Park Hyatt Maldives. That’s thanks to miles and points.
I’ve always thought I was getting a pretty good deal on the premium experiences, using miles for saver awards and booking deep discount tickets. Of course two years ago when I posted about a $1700 roundtrip first class (not business) fare to Seoul there were people who didn’t think that was a good deal.
What I’ve found is that there are (3) types of people that find their way into miles and points:
- Aviation geeks. They love flying, they love planes, they know all the details of aircraft and get excited by flight.
- Luxury travel aficionados. People who want to get the best experiences possible, and use deals to make that possible or to do it more often than they otherwise could.
- Budget travelers. They live frugally, travel is the point not how you get there. There’s no point in a fancy hotel room because they don’t spend any time in the room.
And these different groups talk past each other, a lot. The budget traveler can’t understand ever ‘wasting money’ on business class even if it’s just a few hundred dollars more (wouldn’t you rather spend the money on a nice meal at your destination? or save the money for an early retirement?). The luxury traveler doesn’t understand the point of paying attention to miles, points, and deals if at the end of all that work the reward is a budget hotel and coach flight.
I once described this as, “There are people who like travel, people who like math games, and people who just like planes.”
There’s no point at outrage over the opinions or advice of others. How could they say that?! Don’t they just realize that… Not everyone you disagree with is evil or stupid. Your position may be perfectly logical for maximizing what you value most.
For me I travel a lot more because I can make that travel comfortable. I’d dread flying long haul economy, but I think nothing of stepping on a 15 hour flight in first class. Maybe that makes me weak, or heretical since travel is indeed wonderful. But I can generate enough miles to do it often in a premium cabin, and I definitely prefer to.
I also enjoy a nice hotel and a nice resort, even if I’m off doing other things. A room isn’t ‘just where I sleep’ it’s also a place where I’m productive (working even on vacation), where I may spend several hours up due to jet lag, and where I can rely on people to get me started comfortably for a day in a new and foreign city.
It’s ok that some people don’t value these things, or don’t value them as much as I do. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t valuable. If you think they’re stupid, as opposed to things not connected to your own values, then I’d submit you are simply failing to understand where other people might be coming from.
The best is when you and your travel companion debate over which is right for your shared trip 🙂 It’s why once a year, I end up flying business class and staying at 5* hotels even as a traveler who tends to lean more toward budget/mid-range when I’m on my own.
Maybe John doesn’t have the $$$ to do both (travel in business/first and enjoy the destination).
Maybe those of us who can and do choose to travel business/first and ‘play’ when we arrive at our destination have enjoyed a bit more success (at least financially).
btw: hypocrisy is often a two way street
you’ve never spent $500 on a hotel room? I thought the upgrade fee at the Maldives park hyatt was over $500 with tax per night….
Assuming that we’re just speaking about leisure travelers that go on their own dime, I think it depends on what’s important to you. I used to get excited about getting on an airplane and that excitement would trump the discomfort of a long flight in coach. But as I’ve gotten older (55) and after a long-ish road warrior stint in which I spend too much time in planes, I now see it as much more of a hassle. I still like being in other countries, so if I can reasonably do that in greater comfort and ease I will do so. Just my own system of how I value it.
John’s comment seems pretty uninformed to me. People spend money (or points) on what they value. Some people value luxury cars, I value a shorter commute so buy cheaper cars and put that money towards a house closer to the city. This is a similar tradeoff for many people, comfort traveling versus having more money to spend at the destination.
However, I would suspect for many Americans fluent in points it isn’t really much of a tradeoff though. For my wife and I our travel isn’t constrained by money or our points balance but amount of vacation. Flying business (on points) for us makes our vacation nicer and doesn’t have any impact on how much we travel or how much money we have to spend at our destination. We like to stay at local hotels that don’t accept points and have plenty of points to fly us wherever we want to go during our limited vacation
I’m glad you posted this, because I think it also speaks to the challenge of point valuations. I’d classify myself as half-budget/half-luxury. What that means in practice is that I’d like to fly in business on long-haul, probably wouldn’t spend the extra points for business on a flight less than 6 or 7 hours and like to stay in nice, but not necessarily luxury hotels. I find it a bit hard to evaluate exactly how much a point is worth to me, because while I’d never pay for business out of my own pocket (unless it was a mistake fare), I do value the experience of a long-haul business class flight as a decent amount greater than economy. So I wouldn’t look at a 4,000 dollar flight and calculate the value based on that, necessarily, but I might imagine that I value the flight at, say, 2000. I draw from a fairly limited pool of points (little travel for work, little MS), so I want to always make sure I’m getting good value for my points. But I think what makes me not a true luxury traveler is that I’d take a functional but not fancy hotel (Hyatt Regency in Tokyo, for example, rather than Park, Andaz or Grand) if it means I can stretch my limited miles a bit further. I think it’s important for people reading this blog (or any of the other boarding area blogs) to think about what kind of traveler they are and see the various recommendations through that lens.
You are not stupid. You are special. God made you special and unique.
Only stupid people believe in god. So maybe you are stupid.
Great points, enjoyed the article. I would also add that many luxury travelers are time-pressed folks with higher pay/higher stress jobs. They are probably already forfeiting thousands by taking time off of work and see little point in wasting that time being aggravated in coach or on a cheaper connecting itinerary versus a direct flight that might cost more. The other thing I have realized about expensive hotel rooms as I have aged and built some wealth is that the room you book starts to become more about maintaining the standard you have come to regard as normal. When I was 20 with no money, a $59 stay at a motel 6 was great and about equal to the level of my dorm room that I was used to. Now at 45, I find I have to spend $500 or more on hotel room before I start finding rooms that have bedding as good as I have at home or a rainfall shower which we have at home and have grown very attached to. My definition of comfort has evolved over time as has my ability to tolerate trivial aggravations that can be solved by a few dollars.
The older I get, the fewer things I feel obligated to have an opinion about. How other people choose to travel is one of those things. While I personally tend to fall on Jon’s side of the equation (minus the insulting language) I recognize that other people feel differently (and my recent ride in Cathay first class from HKG to JFK was really very, very nice).
One thing I do care about, even when applied to other people, is grammar and vocabulary. I don’t think “hypocrite” means what I think Jon thinks it means.
Gary, I think you’re in a very exclusive category in which you not only like luxury travel but are able to accrue what appears to be an almost limitless supply of miles and points currencies. It does not strike me that traveling in style in any way limits the amount of travel you’re able to do so there’s no trade-off for you between more travel and more comfortable travel.
From LAX-FCO, I could grab a $1100 business class fare — whereas the economy price was $550.
A $550 economy fare will yield me 7000 miles (worth $140) as an elite flier and 2500 (worth $50) miles as a flier with no status.
A $1100 business class fare will yield me about 30000 miles as an elite flier (credited to AS). Those 30,000 miles are worth about $600 according to various charts.
I leave it to the readers to decide which is the better value for roughly 15 hours of a travel day.
(And let’s not forgot the lounge access thrown in for business class, the shorter lines at the airport, and quicker reaccomodation if something goes wrong.)
It always amazes me how people can be completely incapable of understanding alternate points of view on topics. To have such a lack of empathy as to call other people stupid, just because their opinion or ideals are different, is a bit disturbing. I feel bad for John.
Everyone’s situation and priorities are different. Vacation for me starts the second we leave for the airport, and I value the travel experience just as much as I value the destination, sometimes. My wife agrees, and looks forward to flights in business as first just as much as I do, which reinforces my priorities. If I were in a financial position where taking business/first class impacted my ability to also enjoy the destination, my priorities certainly may shift.
Everyone is different. Different financial situations, different lifestyles, different whatever. Just because something makes sense for John, that obviously doesn’t make it a blanket fact for the rest of the world. The fact that John is apparently incapable of comprehending that, is pretty sad.
@ Credit
When you meet God you can tell Him that.
I am 6 foot 5 inches tall and 230 pounds. On many airlines, it is almost a physical impossibility for me to fit in those seats in the back.
If I can get an exit row at the window, then I can suffer through it.
Why do I usually pay the extra? Because I have to.
There is also tall v short people. For some of us, any flight longer than 2 hours in a seat with only 30″ pitch is reason enough to spend the extra miles.
Fifteen or 20 years ago I might have felt the same way – why “waste” money after all the plane arrives at the same time, no matter where you sit! Today, I fly premium cabin and pay discounted or sale prices if I am not using miles. What’s different now? More discretionary income, better value in premium cabin (both price and comfort) and greater availability on the international routes I use. I’m only spending about $1000 more per trip based on what I was spending on economy before the new (discounted) fares, RDM potential in J and frequency of travel. Expert Flyer has been an excellent tool for making this possible for me.
Business class is not stupid. Neither is John. However, John *does* make a serious mistake when he builds his case on a series of false assumptions. One should never ASSUME, as it merely makes an ASS out of U & ME.
John writes, “People traveling business are so stupid, they could have so much more fun by spending this extra money during their actual days at destination.” He assumes that the business traveler has the ability to spend the “extra money,” over and above when he/she will already be spending, and somehow that that’s OK to do — regardless of one’s per diem spending limits. In reality, most business travelers do not pay for their own flights; they are purchased by the company the traveler is employed by. So it’s not like the traveler has the “extra money” burning a proverbial hole in his/her pocket.
John makes a further error when he asks, “what’s the point of having a bigger seat and an hypocrite flight attendant serving you[?]” A bigger seat (and its accompanying measurement, more legroom) is often the difference between arriving refreshed and ready to work versus being tired, cramped and grumpy upon landing. I cannot speak to whether a particular flight attendant is being hypocritical or not, but I would ask John if he personally knows the cabin crew well enough to make that judgement.
Compounding the errors, John writes that business fares are “[e]specially stupid during a day flight when you don’t care about being able to lie down on a flat seat,” then concluding, “It’s true business seat is convenient to sleep but on New York to Paris you barely have 4/5 hour to sleep between the meals.” Some people *do* lie flat (or at least recline) on business flights that occur during the day, whether it’s to take a nap, relax and watch TV/movie, read a book, whatever. It’s certainly more comfortable than being cramped in a seat that’s 17.75″ wide with 28″ of pitch (Spirit) or 17.2″ wide and 31″ pitch (American). After all physicians have long spoken of the benefits of “power naps.” And I’ll happily take a 4-5 hour sleep over being awake all through the night . . .
Now, let me admit that not only do I fly business class somewhat regularly, but I even buy it with MY OWN MONEY sometimes, rather than my employer’s. Why? Well, for all of the above reasons and more! But there are limits: I don’t fly business on short flights (e.g.: SFO to LAX), even when it’s for work, though I will fly the airline’s “premium economy” product wherever possible. That said, I will NOT fly economy on long-haul flights (e.g.: SFO-JFK; SFO-HNL) — only “premium economy or, preferably, business. On trans-oceanic flights, I will *always* fly business class, but that is always done on points, as I never fly outside the U.S. on business. If and when I fly in First Class, that too is always on my own points . . .
One of the top 10 things I learned in law school is that Reasonable Persons Can Disagree. And my Mom taught me that you can disagree without being disagreeable. Also, no accounting for taste. What you like is fine, even if I like something different. Arby’s taught me that Different is Good.
I agree with Rob S that I want a hotel room that is as nice as I have at home, and we do like the time spent in nice hotels more than most, I assume.
I also agree with Michael, as I get older, I enjoy nice experiences, plus my spouse doesn’t like to travel, so sitting up front helps him deal with it.
And I like to be upfront about my hypocrisies, and luxury travel is definitely my worst considering those who are less fortunate than us, and the way we’re leaving the Earth for those who follow
Finally, hope John is not a trump supporter, but he seems the type. Sad
A friend asked me why I buy RayBans for sunglasses when I could buy a $10 one from Walmart. I told him, it’s the same reason he bought and drives a Honda Civic instead of buying a Hyundai Accent.
I fall into all three of the categories. Sometimes on one trip. It depends.
I can see John’s point though I wouldn’t use his verbiage. 7-8 hours isn’t very long to justify spending $1,100 for business class. I would probably rough it in economy. Now if the flight was 10-12 hours and I could get a biz class seat for $1,100, I would be more tempted to jump on it.
I did SFO-TPE-DPS on EVA Air in Royal Laurel Class two years ago on points. That was the best flight of my life. This year I’m doing that same route on EVA but in Economy since I couldn’t make my points work with the dates I needed. I’m not paying $5,000 for a business class seat (x2)…as great as it was. I’ll have to suffer this time but the fare I’m getting made it a no brainer since I’m spending more than 10 times that on the rest of the trip and I need to stem the $$$$ bleeding wherever I can.
I wonder how John would feel about spending $2,200 to fly economy for 22 hours with two stops and no meal service? I’ve had to do that…twice. I never thought I would use miles to do this flight in economy but at those prices I think I may consider it if I ever go back there again because it would lower the trip costs by about a third.
I agree with Jason Lewis. John is missing the point, and it’s missed by many people who have never experienced true business travel hauling their butt back/forth across the Atlantic or Pacific on a frequent basis. It’s not a leisure trip – although you might have a few hours where you can see something cool (or a free day if you’re able to work it in your schedule), the bulk of your time is spent in offices, attending meetings with co-workers/clients, going to meals/entertainment/relationship-building functions in the evening with those people, and then when you arrive back at your hotel, you are catching up on e-mail or working on something for the next day’s agenda. Oh, and dealing with jet lag at the same time. If you’re lucky, you get 6 hours sleep each night in the hotel. The plane is a sleep haven, it is a place where you can shut off the outside world (if you don’t connect to the internet), get some rest, feel refreshed, even do a little work if necessary. Thus when you arrive at your work destination, you can go straight to the office and when you arrive home, you can more quickly adjust to the time zone difference. That is the whole value-add. Then – often – preparing to do it all again. You might leave for Paris on Sunday, return home on Friday, and then fly off to Singapore on Monday. It’s tiring and takes a toll on the body – you’d be a sleep-deprived wreck if you did such frequent travel in economy. As for the NY->Paris being a short flight, yes that’s true, but the smart business travelers eat before boarding then put on trusted pair of dark eyeshades and earplugs as soon as they get to their seat so they can forego the services and sleep most of the flight.
Stupid is a bit strong. I am not entirely sure I fit into any of your 3 categories. Luxury is totally wasted on me. Comfort, most certainly, is not. And that’s exclusively a physical comfort thing.
I would have an awfully hard time spending extra dollars or miles on a flight to Europe from anywhere east of the Mississippi. As much as I like the extra space between me and the person sitting next to me, and the extra space for my legs, I can’t justify the extra expense when I am just going to end up watching movies no matter where I sit. I can’t sleep on planes unless I am tired enough to do so. So, even if I had a king size bed I’d not be able to sleep on a flight leaving the US at 5 pm.
Obviously, the longer the flight the more willing I am to spend the extra miles. Australia…yes. Asia…yes. Middle East…yes. South America? Meh. Europe? Meh. I am also the type of person who will fly business/first class on a long haul flight and then check-in to a hostel sleeping among strangers. So, I am a combination of a budget and comfort traveler.
I refuse to fly anything international or any flight longer than a few hours in economy (and will only do that if my preferred flight only has economy as happens in small markets). But other than a very few select trips, I’d stay home rather than spend the money to purchase a premium ticket (and did for many years) But thanks to MS I have a 8 figure points balance and it’s finding premium award availability with the fewest stops that is usually my biggest struggle.
John sounds like he’s one of those guys who prides himself in being a smart guy but who has a crappy education, a dead end job and has serious envy issues. Those guys are a dime a thousand…
As one more data point, John needs to remember, too, where people live. I, for example, live in the San Francisco Bay Area, NOT on the East Coast. Generally speaking, therefore, I don’t fly New York to Paris (or London) very often. I *try* to fly non-stops whoever possible, and so a business class flight to Europe is essential. Even on those rare occasions when I *do* from from the East Coast, I’ll fly business class and do it on points . . .
Like John, I used to sneer at Business class. Then my older sister started having difficulties with her legs and back in Economy. I looked into how to use points and miles, and I have not looked back.
I fit in Economy. I have flown 15 hours in Economy, and I did rather well. But I’d rather fly in the front. Points and miles give me the choice, and I love it.
FYI, I flew round trip Chicago-Paris in Business with a friend who has physical issues. I told her how to increase her miles balance, and she did the work. She had never flown international Buisiness class before and didn’t even know it was possible. She is phobic about flying (she needs meds to do it), but she sheepishly admitted that the flight was almost fun.
Thank you, Gary, and the rest of the points and miles bloggers. You have increased my choices, which is so very appreciated. I can flip between travel modes according to pocket book and personal whim.
John sounds angry and I believe it is because he is frustrated . Many , myself included , have to make choices concerning what is more important to them . Now that I’m older ( especially my leg joints and back ) and slightly more affluent I don’t always chose the lowest price .
One could save tremendously on travel by just staying home couldn’t they ?
So , John , I hope someday you have a great experience that was not necessarily the lowest cost and you say ” Not bad , I could get used to this . ”
Also John , stop calling people names , it reflects poorly on you . An absolute peasant with no education can still be a gentleman with dignity .
choose not chose , can’t explain
Always love it when other people decide to comment on how I spend my money. Honestly it’s none of your business nor do I care for your opinion. If I decide to spend $100 to fly F instead of Y so what? It just means there is an extra aisle seat (maybe in E+) that will be available to someone else, maybe even the budget traveler. Now I personally would not spend $5k to fly C international but I would not criticize someone else for doing so. In fact the airlines make most of their money from these customers, which makes it possible for the budget traveler to buy a cheap ticket in the cattle car. So they should be thanking these guys instead of criticizing them. If you have $$$$ in the bank then it makes a lot of sense to buy F rather than try to roll the dice on upgrades.
Not Amused:
This is about the dumbest article I’ve ever read – which makes we wonder why it was even written in the first place.
I have a downstairs neighbor who buys new Bentley convertibles ever 3 years, almost never goes anywhere with it – but still buys new. All that says is that he enjoys his car, and obviously can afford it. I have another friend who lives in a 10,000 sq. ft. home, and will not cruise unless he can get the ‘owners suite’ on Ociana and similar cruise lines. Why – because he says ‘why go on a cruise if it is not as comfortable as when I’m home’, so he gets the 1,000 to 2,000 square foot suites.
I had a great Aunt who back in the 1960’s when her husband was then a real ‘millionaire’, who refused to buy her grand daughter a 35-CENT Disney booklet because ‘it cost too much’!!!
Each of us is different and has our own reasons for doing that which we do do. Some of us have too much, and spend it, some have too little and still try to compete with others.
WHY Fly First Class – because either we can, or we find a way to do it – so what?
I have always fallen into the ‘budget traveler’ category. Hell, I’d ship myself to Brussels in a cardboard box if I thought I could get away with it. But I’ll admit, the time or two I inadvertently ended up in first class (whether through an upgrade, or just a weird seating mistake), I have been incredibly thankful to arrive at my destination feeling far more refreshed and less cramped than I would have back in my 17.8 inches of space in Economy Class, being kicked endlessly by a small child.
In Panama a couple of years ago, my friend and I decided we wanted a ‘real experience’ and stayed at a dirt cheap hostel. It was over a bar, and fantastic fun for two days- until we decided that maybe, just maybe, we would treat ourselves to a nice room, a hot shower, and quiet for the last couple days of our trip. (There’s only so many unwashed spiritual drunk college kids that you can take when you get older- no matter how much you were one once…) Lo and behold, the 4 star hotel and spa was a whole $38 per night more. Absolutely blew our minds.
There’s something to be said for comfort- and arriving in a better mood to take on the day. I still spring for the cheap seats every time- that’s just me. But I certainly see the appeal in the upgrade- and if a really good one catches my eye, I’ll treat myself.
I work in admissions consulting and often hear people laugh at those who spend $250,000 on a four year elite private college education, believing you get the same thing at a good public university costing much less. While that can be true, it also is not usually true. It also isn’t true if you earn multiple six figures or millions and the added cost of elite and private makes less dent in your bank balance than someone earning far less. It’s always relative.
The same can be said for travel. Sometimes the economy, budget hotel more frugal manner is the way to go for many, likely most people…since most people don’t make the big bucks and/or cannot accumulate lots of points and miles to get premium award travel. But for others who value premium experience and or extra legroom or the ability to actually comfortably sleep, premium airline awards or paid tickets are worthwhile. These people also often earn enough to be able to enjoy those more expensive flights and enjoy premium touring and hotels on the ground just as much.
People who worry about what others are doing are insecure dimwits. Do what works for you…and enjoy that there are people out there doing it differently–which means they aren’t competing against you for what you want! The same goes for colleges, as it were!
I am a luxury traveler stuck in the back cause I can’t accrue millions of points a year.
John disagrees with John.
When we were young and budgets were tight, naturally we spent as little as possible and the destination was the important thing, not the trip.
Now, especially if we built up points and cash, why shouldn’t we enjoy the fruits of our labor?
Personally I’m ok with a trip under 3.5 hours in economy, but longer than that I find it to be uncomfortable and will pay the extra points to enjoy the upgraded privilege.
Most of the readers here are point collectors so its not a very difficult decision. He is entitled to his “stupid” comment but (if anywhere) it belongs on a budget/ backpacker site, not here.
@Jo — neither do I (accrue millions of points a year). I’m always amazed by those who *do* speak of 7- or 8-digit point balances in their accounts. Right now, my largest point balance is with a hotel chain, but it’s under 300,000. (Still, I don’t think I’ve ever stockpiled 300,000 points before.) My largest airline balance right now is only 75,000+. That said, I was still able to fly round-trip to London in business class (Virgin Atlantic), stay a total of 12 nights in hotels on points (including 5 nights @ the St. Regis in Florence for [IIRC] 147,000 Starwood points), etc., etc.
There have been articles on other travel blogs extolling the point of view that you should travel economy to protect your hard earned cash and / or points.
I don’t recall a volley of personal abuse directed at that writer (“a crappy education, a dead end job and has serious envy issues” and similar statements in some of the above comments) and have come across well educated folk (degree, doctorate, post doctorate, etc) who have imperfect writing skills. John lists at least 4 reasons for his point of view and if his post is deemed offensive by the rules of this bog, perhaps the comment should have been edited or deleted?
A best friend of mine is annoyingly frugal to the point it is hard to enjoy any activity without suffering complaints regarding the cost. He was scathing of my premium travel. Eventually, after many attempts, I managed to convince him that for the price of economy travel he could play the frequent flyer game and now he’s a total convert. A YYZ-NRT-LHR-YYZ in first / business on US Airways points bought for around $2,000 (IIRC) was the turning point of never being prepared to fly economy again!
My father was also of the opinion that it was a waste of money to the extent that he was flying around the world in his 80s with some health problems and still wouldn’t pay for premium despite being cashed up! I would quietly upgrade his flights by points or cash behind his back and if I was lucky I would he would only begrudgingly admit he’d enjoyed the flight more (although a thank you was limited if ever offered) so determined was he to prove his position that you needed to suffer to feel you have travelled somewhere! He also resolutely refused to stay in anything above a 2 or 3 star hotel.
Each to their own.
I’m a pretty frugal traveler. I’m still in my twenties so I very much have the mentality that the less time I spend in a hotel the better my overall experience traveling because it means I was actually seeing the sights I’ve paid money (or points) to see. Yet having said that I admit that I DO like luxury hotels probably more than I should, so that’s where my points tend to go.
I don’t need to spend extra money on getting there and I really don’t need a fancy hotel but as long as I have a ton of UR points for my work I decided I would rather spend them on hotels than flights. At least with hotels, I reason, the benefits are more generous from a points perspective and i get that benefit for a full day instead of 6-12 hours. Everybody has their own preferences!
Why do I have a feeling that John drives a $26k+ SUV when “for that amount you can buy 2 Nissan Versa, what’s the point of having a bigger car.”
“People traveling in SUVs are so stupid, they could have so much more fun by spending this extra money during their actual days at destination .”
What’s that $400 AARP discount you mentioned? 😀
I used to be a budget flyer. Then I started reading Flyertalk and playing the mileage game. I was a budget 1K on United for 10 years, and my husband and I have enjoyed many trips in businesses and several long hauls in first on Thai, Lufthansa, etc. Now that the mileage game is over, we still rack up quite a few miles on credit cards and recently flew to Hawaii and Europe in business with miles.. And now my husband is totally spoiled! I swear if I cannot figure out how to get us longhaul tickets with miles, I think he will actually pay full price and buy the tickets. We are 70, and my husband says we deserve comfort, but I will be shocked to spend big money for sitting in a nice seat. Please keep bringing us good deals so I can avoid the trama.
@Platy — I agree that just because one individual uses improper language does not mean others should, though I will admit to understanding the impulse. While I have tried to remain civil, I think you miss a crucial point: the original poster (“John”) began buy insulting virtually everyone here (“People traveling business are so stupid”), indeed using the word “stupid” four times, describing individuals, businesses, and/or their practices/activities.
The bottom line is that people travel the want they want to, within their economic means and comfort level (i.e.: what they can afford to spend, balanced by what they feel comfortable spending). But there is no wrong or right way to travel, which is indeed the bottom line that John seems to have missed . . .
John’s comments make sense…..until….he gets that backache flying in coach that 1 extra time, and then he has to walk through Business Class, saying deep in his little metal brain, “Gee, I could have sat there on this flight.”
He’s a goon, likely young, and indeed poor. Take away his smartphone.
@ Jason Lewis
IMHO you have provided great and well reasoned responses to counter the points made by John in favour of not flying business class! Good job!
If Gary found the use of the word “stupid” to be potentially offensive, I doubt he would have used the extract to headline a story! It is an almost universal trait that those with an opinion think those with a dissenting opinion lack reason or common sense (the definition of “stupid”)! Of course, it’s also possible Gary has used the headline to be somewhat controversial ,to stir the pot a bit, and some have taken the bait! That said, yes you are quite right, it would be preferable that language be more respectful and considered.
John was addressing the practice of paying CASH for business class travel. If “virtually everyone here” thought that paying cash for business class was good practice we wouldn’t spend countless hours learning how to avoid doing just that! So maybe some frequent flyer blogsters shouldn’t be so quick to find offence! Perhaps many would agree that it is stupid (in the definition of of stupid of ill-informed) to pay cash for business class when you can deploy a points-based strategy.
Personally, I rarely pay cash for business / first travel (occasionally I do for a status run and / or because there’s a great deal): I most cases I would regard to do so would indeed be stupid. But that’s only because the frequent flyer game lets me travel business / first at a fraction of the cash cost!
Many, if not most here, are lucky in life to have the employer, the cash, the frequent flyer insights, in the first place to even be in a position to share and debate such issues.
It’s good to know that a small sample of the business class travelling folk can muster cogent and reasoned argument in response to a contrary and argued opinion with a mildly and tangentially (not directly personal) offensive word such as stupid.
The rest of you have managed to respond with an ongoing litany of highly personal insults (the following extracted from the above posts):
– hypocrite
– uninformed
– lacks empathy
– incapable of comprehending
– Trump supporter (sad)
– crappy education
– dead end job
– serious envy issues
– sneering
– angry
– frustrated
– absolute peasant with no education
– insecure dimwit
– a goon
– young and poor
Quality stuff !
oops missed one
– little metal brain
Thanks, @ Melissa or saving the most offensive post until last
@Gary… question for you. I was able to book a $3100 RT in FC from LAX to HKG on AA next month using their 25% off promotion. Should I credit the miles to Asia Miles or just let them post to AA?
Platy , I noticed that you have quoted some of my posting : ” an absolute peasant with no education ” but you omitted ” can still be a gentleman with dignity . ” I enjoy knowing those who meet that description yet are unfailingly polite and dignified . I am replying to clarify that this was intended as an example and not a disparagement of anyone .
However in your case the criticism is intentional . You are conceited .
@ Roger
Thanks for the clarification. So…at least that part of your posts wasn’t intentionally offensive. One can but aspire to polite, dignified, educated, and gentlemanly behavior – perhaps even debating the topic at hand without further personal insult?
It’s silly to criticize anyone that buys business and first class tickets if they can afford it and if that is how they choose to spend their money. If your choice is using points or just not choosing to sit in business or first more power to you. Name calling and hurling insults is just stupid. Spend what you can afford and travel the way you feel it’s appropriate for your lifestyle.
Why are we assuming that just because the person spent $1,100 on a flight that they’re all of a sudden strapped for cash? Spending money on a flight and spending money once you arrive are not mutually exclusive propositions. I would argue that the person capable/willing to spend $1,100 on a ticket will probably spend *more* once they arrive than the person who isn’t.
I like the persona breakdowns given by Gary, and most people are probably some combination of the three. Even still, value is incredibly subjective and just because I think it’s worth $1,100 to fly for 5 hours In lie flat seat doesn’t mean you have to as well.
@Platy — Certainly I cannot (and would not) speak for “our host,” Gary Leff, but I would *imagine* that Gary re-posted John’s comments — in toto — precisely to spawn the type of discussion that has spread across (or perhaps “down”) this website/page. I think he knew — indeed, most people would — exactly what would transpire when John’s initial post, buried among the comments to one of Gary’s original (primary) blog posts, gained primary status. If nothing else, traffic has increased and people — such as myself, who read a lot but post only occasionally — have flocked to respond and, often, to respond again. If nothing else, the increased traffic John’s words have caused will certainly raise the organic ranking of “View From the Wing” among Google’s and other search engine listings . . .
However, let me raise two points. First, when you (quite rightly) refer to the fact that “John was addressing the practice of paying CASH for business class travel,” you go on to point out that, “If ‘virtually everyone here’ thought that paying cash for business class was good practice we wouldn’t spend countless hours learning how to avoid doing just that,” I think you are missing an important point. While it’s true that *we* (those of us who regularly pay attention to things like “View From the Wing” and similar blogs) might “spend countless hours,” I would *think* that many of us who travel business class (or First) and “pay cash” do so on the corporate dollar, not the personal one. That is to say, while we may fly business (or First) on POINTS when flying for personal reasons, I would suspect that — when flying for work — those flying in business class have those tickets paid for by their respective employers. And those employers did not escape John’s wrath: “And as for a business trip paid by your company, the latter is so stupid to lose so much money for such stupid comfort.”
Secondly, one can certainly make the argument that spending points to acquire business (or First) class seats *is* paying “cash,” but the currency being spent is not $, £, €, ¥, etc., etc. Ergo, John’s comments DO apply to all of us here . . . .