After Delta’s evisceration of elite qualification rules for next year, announcing the end of earning status by miles and flights flown; moving entirely to dollars spent; and increasing the amount of spending required for status substantially, as well as severely restricting access by premium credit card customers to its lounges, Delta acknowledged that they had moved ‘too quickly’ by ‘pulling the band aid off all at once’ and promised to moderate their changes for the coming year.
New Elite Status Requirements
They’ve now announced new qualification rules. It’s still “qualifying dollars only” but the increases are not as steep.
| Announced | Revised | |||
| 2023 | 2024 | 2024 | ||
| 3,000 | 6,000 | 5,000 | ||
| 8,000 | 12,000 | 10,000 | ||
| 12,000 | 18,000 | 15,000 | ||
| 20,000 | 35,000 | 28,000 |
New Limits For Credit Card Club Access
Instead of limiting premium co-brand Amex Reserve customers to 10 Sky Club visits per year, and Amex Platinum cardmembers to 6 visits per year, unless the cardmember spends $75,000 on their card per year, Delta’s compromise is:
- Reserve cardmembers get 15 visits per year, with a visit including all entries on a single day (so connecting flights use only one visit even if entering multiple clubs).
- Platinum cardmembers get 10 visits per year, with multiple lounge visits in a single day also counting just as one use.
- After maxing out the benefit, additional visits can be purchased for $50 per day.
Improved Lifetime Elite Benefits
To keep lifetime status members from defecting they’re improving lifetime status-earn and will make it a more significant upgrade tie-breaker.
- 1 Million Miles goes from lifetime Silver to lifetime Gold (matching United)
- 2 Million Miles goes from lifetime Gold to lifetime Platinum (matching United)
- 3 Million Miles gets lifetime Diamond (matching United)
- 5 Million Miles gets lifetime 360 status (United offers Global Services at 4 million)
They’ll calculate million miler levels using flight miles going forward, but honor existing million miler totals that were earned via qualifying miles (from credit card, bonuses etc).
Not As Stingy Converting Rollover Qualifying Miles
Members with ‘rollover qualifying miles’ – extra qualifying miles above and beyond the status they’ve earned – can convert those into redeemable miles or qualifying dollars. Delta’s conversion rates were shockingly bad when the changes were announced – 2 to 1 for turning them into SkyMiles (even though qualifying miles have historically been worth more than SkyMiles) or 20 to 1 for qualifying dollars.
Instead of converting rollover qualifying miles at 20:1 into qualifying dollars, as previously announced, they’re improving the ratio to 10:1. Along with reducing the qualifying dollars required for status earned in 2024, this is more reasonable.
Additionally, anyone with rollover qualifying mile balances over 100,000 will receive offers to extend their status.
New Choice Benefits Coming For 2025
For 2025 – not this coming year – there will be new Choice benefits offers, including the ability for Diamonds to pick $2,000 qualifying dollars and for Platinums to pick $1,000 qualifying dollars, making status earning a little bit easier in lieu of other benefits.
Additionally, Diamonds will again be able to select Sky Club membership for two choice selections.
There will be a Wheels Up statement credit offers; increased bonus miles on offer (35,000 for Diamonds and 30,000 for Platinums) as well as increased Delta travel vouchers of equivalent value to those mileage amounts at a penny per point.
What’s Next For SkyMiles?
Delta has been clear that the changes they made were not a mistake. They just had a marketing challenge. They shouldn’t have gone all the way, all at once. In fact, they even shared that they have plans to go even further than what they’ve announced.
Members sticking with the SkyMiles program get a temporary reprieve from the most drastic of changes, though it will still take more flying to earn the same status, unless also spending heavily on the most premium Delta Amex cards, and we can expect Delta to go farther soon.
I just couldn’t sleep at night knowing I’m hosing my customers.
Choice Benefits are for the 2025 Medallion Year, not launching in 2025, Gary.
It’s very clever of Delta. Everyone is going to purchase $50 day passes or $695 annual memberships, the latter of which will undoubtedly be deducted on taxes or reimbursed by some employers/clients as a business expense.
@Gary – my biggest takeaway – American’s lifetime program is now so farrrrr behind UA and DL that it’s actually laughable . Good for Delta for revising their lifetime program .
With apologies to The Who.
Won’t get fooled again
They showed their cards early. I’m folding.
I’m at 1.76M. Getting to “annual” Platinum is a big step up for 2MM. For me, that’s the biggest takeaway.
absolutely incredible that the pushback to Delta was so hard, they immediately overcorrected to “if you just have the Reserve and Platinum cards you get Silver immediately, please come back”
Wouldn’t say MM Gold ‘matches’ UNITED.
At UNITED Gold Premier gets you EconomyPlus at the time of booking. Delta puts you into the 72 hour upgrade lottery for Comfort+.
And at UNITED you get to nominate a companion to share your status.
If, indeed, upgrades are the “point” of having status, Delta has conceded nothing. Rather, is has reshuffled the same deck, dealing the high cards out in a slightly different way, with elites still competing against one another, not against Delta, for the goodies.
This faceplant and backpedal is GENIUS, just shows how DL continues to be the top airline in the world. More businesses should take this approach to rolling out new initiatives!
(just saving a certain someone some time and hot air)
OMFG! You know how many years I’ve cried in my beer as a Delta Million Miler with lifetime Silver status, eying my UA friends with envy? Now its back to Sky Club, KLM lounges, and Sky Priority for me. Not to mention higher priority on upgrades I will never get.
One advantage that DL lifetime Silvers had over Lifetime UA Gold – free advance seat selection on Light Fares (aka Basic Economy) on KLM/AF.
United announced higher earnings than Delta in the third quarter even though Delta is larger by revenue. There were only 2 weeks left in the quarter after their announcement, correlation?
For me, going to Alaska, challenge is done. I no longer have any faith in the Skymiles program or Delta in general under Bastian’s leadership. I believe that he only plans this as a brief retreat. My Delta Amex has been closed.
While I appreciate a lot of these changes – many of them (including enhanced Million Miler status, and the enhanced treatment of rollover) are not helpful in terms of “thinning the herd,” which is still needed. We still need some changes that reduce the number of Delta elites IMO.
But overall, for me, spending $25K or $30K on a delta reserve gets me a total of $5K+ MQD a year, which should keep me Platinum pretty consistently. Diamond is also attainable with the lower threshold (but who knows how long the lower threshold lasts).
It’s also funny they abandoned Delta Stays / Car rentals for MQD earning.
It’s not clear if Delta plans to continue its current domestic paid first class load factor of 75% for all First Class seats, with only 25% allotted for upgrades (say, full fare “elite” SkyMiles coach customers in Y class).
@Anthony if you just *hold* both a Platinum and a Reserve you get Silver. Absolutely wild to me. GM then requires $50k spend on the Reserve, $25k less than AA and way less than United. I don’t think even AA is this card-centric lmao
With $50 day passes, $695 memberships and memberships as a choice benefit, the Sky Clubs won’t be reduced until the Delta One lounges open.
If Delta is going to keep chasing the dollar, it needs to start adding 1-2 rows of first-class on most domestic flights.
Jon – are you sure you can double up on the $2,500 “head start” if you hold both Delta Platinum and Delta Reserve? That wasn’t clear to me.
I do also agree with FNT Delta Diamond – I think the new card thresholds will cover a lot of people’s SkyClub needs, including casual visitors. But I have long argued that the SkyClub is probably Delta’s number one point of differentiation. So it is really hard to limit access.
Everyone be nice to Mayor Tim of Deltaville. Last month he wasted dozens of hours of his life trying to explain to us that Delta wouldn’t have done something like this without data to back it up (haha), that Delta basically doesn’t need low-level medallion customers (not how I’m reading today’s announcement), and that the industry would probably follow Delta (thanks for matching me to MVP 100K Alaska!!!). Now he has to backtrack and explain why this isn’t a strategic flop, and undoubtedly will waste tens of thousands of words doing so. He’ll probably also mention that Delta earns a premium vs. United when flying over the Pacific, and could even toss in some commentary about how poorly American performs in New York. He might even claim that Delta is the world’s best airline.
My last Delta flight, the ground crew and flight crew were the kindest and friendliest I ever encountered. Even had a big show with certificates, applause, and pictures, for two passengers attaining the Million Miler. I secretly wondered if they were embarrassed about their bossman ripping off the Band-Aid.
Anyway, I ‘ve just booked a domestic American Airlines flight. My AA flight earlier this year, a domestic leg connecting to a long-haul transcontinental was fabulous, with professional yet easy going flight staff. And I was just a lowly One World Silver. Now that AA freely matched my DL Platinum and gave me AA Platinum, with two freely checked bags, I’m going to try AA again on a simple direct domestic flight.
I mean, status helps me because I don’t always want to book first class (or business class). But if the status isn’t worth it, then I don’t care. DL has bjigger aircraft and and better schedules for my trips; but, I don’t like the CEO insulting me. So I am going to take my time and enjoy checking out the competition. Blogger advice is helpful; yet, sometimes I just have to do my own thing for myself.
Besides the lifetime improvements its just a temporary reprieve as you’ve said. They’re not done cutting benefits. Switch to a better program elsewhere.
@Anthony, keep dreaming, there is no such thing as “thinning the herd”. Delta knows exactly how many elites there are in the herd, and continues to give out status like candy to corporate travel managers for their employers.
A vast chunk of OPM status customers is not earned. We have at least 500+ DL status holders in my not even that large company that are gifted this way
@Anthony yeah, if you scroll down to the terms it’s very clear you get one $2,500 bonus per card *type*. So one Platinum bonus and one Reserve bonus
and Anna has a good point, the agreement DL has with my employer means our travel dept just hands out GM to every employee who asks
@Jaime Anderson: I realized this shortly after the merger with Northwest, Not sure why it’s taking everyone else so long!
@Jim: Delta actually probably doesn’t need the customers they are trying to fire. People who pay an annual fee for unlimited lounge visits but don’t charge to the card are just crowding up the lounge.
@ Gary — Speechless on the LIfetime changes. 3 MM goes from LT Gold to LT Diamond? That can’t be.
This means nothing. Enjoy my zero card spend. Still a frequent buyer play rather caring about the loyal customers that actually fly….
@jim LMAO…comment of the day!
@Christopher Raehl – I don’t agree that Delta doesn’t need the customers they tried to fire because they are just crowding up the SkyClub. First, those customers do matter to Delta because they had to buy a ticket (and may have bought the ticket from someone else absent the option to kill time in Delta’s lounge, and the people with SkyClub access will tend to be the folks who are buying more expensive tickets). Second, Delta was pretty transparent that their goals with this whole process were to thin the ranks of the elites (they are, as we all know, a super premium airline /s) while also driving up CC spend. Just my two cents.
It’s still complex as heck compared to AA’s program which is now the gold standard in airline loyalty. DL will drive more business and repeat customers away with this minor tweek.
@ Gary — The takeaway here is that people value having status more than the actual benefits. Thinning the herds to better deliver benefits was a stupid idea. As long as people can put that idiotic tag on their bag and brag to their friends that “they are Diamond with Delta”, they feel important. It doesn’t matter that they never get an upgrade. Delta is going to have a VERY difficult time getting people to put money (not less) on their AMEX cards. People are dumb, but probably not THAT dumb.
Why would a Delta Platinum Card and Delta Reserve get the exact same Headstart? Make some differentiation considering one card cost 4X the other. And not offering either unlimited or perhaps 40-50 Skyclub visits annually with their most expensive card(with poor spending rewards) was another miss. And the 1 MQD for $10 spend is still has wayyyyy too much lost opportunity to use.
These changes beat offering nothing but they are very weak. And most likely very temporary.
Hey Scotch Kirby,
we caught on that United, in its earnings release, ADJUSTED OUT profit sharing for its employees in order to produce an ADJUSTED margin that was higher than Delta’s.
Says alot about the value of employees that United classifies profit sharing as “unusual” while profit sharing is a core part of Delta’s expenses – which is why their employees have now accrued $1 billion in profit sharing so far in the first 3 quarters.
We are presuming that United doesn’t plan to be regularly profitable or at least don’t plan to share it regularly with employees.
I’m betting your bonuses also exclude employee profit sharing because you want the most you can get and you will get it anyway.
The reason why you haven’t seen near as much status match activity from DL customers is because United is considerably smaller in key corporate markets than they were pre-covid including NYC. All those cuts at EWR in order to keep the operation from melting down played right into delivering all kinds of high value customers to Delta, right? I wouldn’t suggest that you try to raise your elite requirements either. And of course you don’t have anywhere close to the amount of loyalty program revenue that Delta gets in the first place. Heck, they spill more elite revenue than you earn in total.
The employees and customers always come up on the short end of the stick but you are guaranteed to do just fine.
psst. don’t talk too loud about your fourth quarter expectations so loudly. Delta will be right back on top… the 3 cents more you earned in the 3rd quarter would have vaporized if United employees earned as much as Delta employees in profit sharing.
@ Tim Dunn — Typical narcissistic answer, diverting to another subject. The topic is loyalty programs not profits. PEOPLE MATTER MORE THAN PROFITS.
NOT EVEN CLOSE TO ENOUGH FOR ME!!! SEE YA DELTA…No way I’m hanging with this BS.
Btw…tim dunn…enough already dude!!!
@Big Tee I’m glad to see Delta decided to really celebrate millionmiler milestones, mine came over the summer with only one congrats from a flight attendant on my flight from DTW to ICN, so there were plenty of crew and time to mark it.
These changes are really good from my point of view. I am not a credit card point player look for for Skyclub access. I travel frequently for work, and not at a company that would buy DeltaOne. The change in LF status is big, my loyalty is now valued more than the 3 x year leisure flyer with an AMEX card. The spend levels are more realistic for the economy class road warrior. Upgrades will still be rare, but at least I might the first page of the list 🙂
Despite some posters strenuous assertions otherwise, butts in seats pay the bills, and the pushback from us was heard and addressed. Maybe the Skyclubs will still be crowded, not a problem for me as I am not paying for it by membership or credit card annual fee
37K miles from 2MM. As soon as I hit that I’m done except when UA or AA are not a better option.
DL already opened its kimono so we know what’s coming down the pike. I’m not that stupid.
This sounds like a typical negotiation for DL. Make it painful and then back off some. Now people are happy for losing less.
I was waiting to see what changes would be made. Based on what I’ve read, the Delta Reserve card still doesn’t look work the money. The Amex Platinum look much better. I’m not going to spend that kind of money to be limited on access to the club. I still plan on ditching my Delta Reserve card! (Already picked up the Chase Sapphire Reserve card in the past week. Lots of options for club visits!)
Anybody who still defends DL as “the best US carrier”?
Needs to take a hard look at this latest mess. DL just showed you who they are and what they are about– Credit Card Spend and the AMEX relationship is all they really care about.
If they could book that revenue without flying those pesky planes with those obnoxious passengers? I assure you they would do so.
@Tim Dunn
Heh. I’m sorry you are forced to live in a DL hub city.
For those of us close to more competitive hubs, with a dozen choices of carriers to London, Asia or SPacific? Yeah, after 4 million miles on everybody? I will never spend another night stranded in that third world bazaar called ATL. If Stockholm Syndrome is a thing? So is Atlanta Angst.
hahaha oh hell yes, hook this Dunn rageposting straight into my veins!!
Gene,
you missed or most likely ignored the part about UA’s profit sharing being just 75% of DL’s even though UA made more.
But people more than profits, right?
I’ve sat out Delta status and miles earning and quietly watched for the last 10 years or so.
From my perspective Delta regularly devalues their program beyond even what they think they can get away with just to see how far they can push their “loyalty” members. Then they dial it back and act like they’re doing everybody a favor. And amazingly, for the most part everybody falls for it – the blogs always come back with “Delta realized they messed up and they’re doing right by their customers by dialing it back”. Except they’re not. They’re abusing their loyal customers while still getting credit for “caring”.
It’s baffling to watch. You guys are all getting played. It’s plain as day and somehow you don’t even know it.
@ Tim Dunn — Well, duh. Of course I read that. You missed my point — YOU act like the best airline is whichever is most profitable. Delta has primarily funded its highly-touted profit sharing and excessive executive compensation through devaluations of its mileage currency. I’m sure another devaluation will be used to fund this little rollback as well. That well is starting to run dry though, so they are banking on their new-found AMEX well for their next act. Howevever, that well may run dry faster than expected.
@Santa Barbarian, completely agree with your comment comment.
@BigTee, don’t look back, American is much better onboard than Delta.
Gene,
we get it.
You are a Delta loyalty reject and nobody can win because you can’t meet the requirements that Delta set for loyalty levels and you can’t meet those levels while many other customers can.
Delta gets more money from its loyalty program than any other airline in the world. They know what they are doing.
Delta employees enjoy the best profit sharing in the industry. Delta stockholders show that Delta is the most valuable airline in the world.
You and only you are the one that is out of touch.
Move on and make us all, including yourself, happier.
Delta = Aviation Terrorist Organization.
Tim –
Take the L. Your comments are so laughingly biased we cant even read past the first sentence anymore.
Delta blew it.. and here you are trying to paint these rollbacks as a welcome surprise, I am sure. Just like DCS and Hilton
@ Tim — You have it completely backwards. Delta is the one who is being rejected here. I could easily met the new thresholds, but why on earth would I want to allocate a significantly larger share of my travel and credit card spend budgets to such a mediocre airline and such lousy credit cards? Again, Delta being profitable does not equal them offering good value to their customers. In fact, it seems Delta is so profitable because they offer such poor value to their customers.
@Gary: Is the Gold Status at 1M retroactive for existing million milers, or only new million milers?
Thanks for the summary of the changes.
Well I rarely fly Delta anymore (retired and live in an AA hub) but did for many years. Have over 2.4 million “million miler eligible” miles. Assumed I was stuck at lifetime Gold but per this message (and Email from Ed) as of 2/1/24 I will be lifetime Platinum. Almost tempting to get 600,000 more miles now for lifetime Diamond.
Have 2.9 million lifetime miles w AA and lifetime Platinum but maybe they will follow DL’s lead and give Platinum Pro for 2 million and Lifetime EP for 3 (matches what DL is doing). Will definitely hit 3 million w AA but figured I would just get a few SWUs. Now I have hope of something better since think they almost have to match the lifetime status DL and UA give
@AC I wish AA would match Delta on that. I have 2mm and closing in on 3mm. doubt they will do that, however it would be amazing. Cool that you got the Delta status. For Delta my thought is the only status levels worth anything are Plat and Diamond. I can see you doing around the world mileage runs and charging on those Delta cards to get the lifetime Diamond :-).
“we caught on that United, in its earnings release, ADJUSTED OUT profit sharing for its employees in order to produce an ADJUSTED margin that was higher than Delta’s.”
I can’t think of a better example of the Dunning-Kruger effect on financial analysis than Tim Dunn. Tim has made countless errors in his analysis with no end in sight. UA’s profit sharing of 305M wasn’t adjusted out at all as shown below. It’s clear Tim Dunn doesn’t know the slightest in financials which is why he struggles so much with using tangible data in his arguments. Perhaps he thinks the formula for fact based discussions is being loud, obnoxious, and overly hormonal.
GAAP
Operating Revenue 14.484B
Operating Expense 12.745B
Operating Income 1.739B (12.0%)
-Non Operating Loss:
Interest Expense -0.493B
Interest Income 0.234B
Interest Capitalized 0.048B
Miscellaneous 0.011B
Unrealized Loss on Investment -0.054B
Pre-Tax Income 1.485B (10.3%)
ADJUSTED
Operating Revenue 14.484B
Operating Expense 12.745B
-Adjusted for:
Special charges of 0.029B
Operating Income 1.768B (12.2%)
-Non Operating Loss:
Interest Expense -0.493B
Interest Income 0.234B
Interest Capitalized 0.048B
Miscellaneous 0.011B
-Adjusted for:
Unrealized Loss on Investment Excluded
Pre-Tax Income 1.568B (10.8%)
The so called “adjustment” in profit sharing Tim Dunn is alleging is nowhere to be found. Maybe it’s hiding in Tim’s fallopian tube along with all the other BS claims that is causing him to be constantly whiny whenever his frail ego is challenged.
@ AC @ robertw — Maybe Gary has some precise numbers, but I doubt this will happen given the large number of people who have 2 MM+ with AA from pre-12/1/2011 when all AA miles, including credit card sign up bonuses, counted towards their MM counter. I would LOVE to be wrong on this one!
One must bear in mind that – according to Tim Dunn – Delta is the world’s only PERFECT airline – and all others deserve to be liquidated. Sad.
So you’re not going make a dent in lounge crowding, pulling back on the one lever that could have made an impact(amex plat)…and you’re still going to sell even more of your first class seats so status is meaningless(no upgrades), and your award currency is worthless. Why again should I care about your loyalty program?
@Thing 1 – existing million milers!
marketing discount,
not surprisingly, you CHOSE not to find the relevant parts about United’s profit sharing.
And both DL and UA’s profits do look spectacular compared to what AA and AS just reported and AA’s guidance is more than a little concerning.
At the end of the day, UA still is spending much more than DL to get to close to parity with DL’s earnings in the summer and will fall much further behind in the rest of the year.
AA is reducing debt and just got a debt upgrade. UA is increasing earnings long with DL but taking on debt. DL is reducing debt and increasing earnings
Whether perfect or not, DL is doing a better job of achieving all business objectives than any other airline.
And they are not losing premium revenue.
@Gary. Thanks. Previously, Delta was my first choice “go to” airline. These changes won’t make Delta my “go to” airline again, but I may be less likely to actively avoid them.
What typical Tim Dunn nonsense response. Someone points out where he’s wrong. Tim’s response: “look at American over here”
Get a life, Tim
Stop hiding in the shadows of good writers and websites
What a predicable low grade response from Tim Dunn. Makes yet another boneheaded mistake that no credible analyst would make. What’s the Tim Dunn operating handbook when making factual errors? More countless non sequitar and unrelated arguments to disguise the fact that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
No other commenter comes close to the amount of detractions you receive on a daily basis, it’s mind boggling. If the general consensus of the public is always negative, it’s because they’re onto something.
You say United “adjusted” out profit sharing in the MRQ, I provided the exact data that shows that’s false, and so you include AA and AS as a defense mechanism instead of being unable to defend your initial claim as usual.
The more I hear that you were fired and not retired from the industry, the more I believe it. Because not even the flight attendants working the aisle nor the cleaners servicing an overnight aircraft, will take the absolute trash that is your data hyperallergenic “insights”.
to no one’s surprise, Max weighs in on a conversation to do nothing but try to bash people when he can’t possibly read a financial statement.
And marketing discount flat out ignores what he doesn’t want to see.
Under the category of Non-GAAP Financial Information (continued), in order to calculate its Non-GAAP Adjusted Operating Expenses, UAL FROM ITS Operating Expenses excluding Special Charges, EXCLUDES Fuel Expense, Profit Sharing, Third Party Business Expenses to come up up with its Non-GAAP Adjusted Operating Expenses of $9,021,000,000.
In other words, United wants to create its own measure of expenses (which is why it is non-GAAP) which DOES NOT INCLUDE Profit Sharing.
Not only does UA paid $100 million LESS in profit sharing than DL but it wants to pretend it didn’t pay profit sharing so it can talk about how well it did.
Delta does not exclude profit sharing. It is core and an ongoing part of its expenses and it is not “special.”
Let’s also not forget that UA flight attendants DO NOT have a new contract which will add hundreds of millions of dollars per year in additional expenses.
Whether the blind and dumb can see it or not, UA underperformed DL on a true apples to apples comparison basis esp. regarding employee costs.
And AA’s major reason for much lower profits than DL or UA was because AA had to take the charge for pilot contract settlement which it did not previously take.
DL is the only one of the big 3 that has fully increased the pay for all of its employees.
There is nothing perfect about what DL is doing. but they are succeeding against vulnerabilities that both AA and UA have. AA is not able to grow as quickly. UA is spending much more in order to grow.
DL is the only one of the big 3 that has a balanced growth and balance sheet strategy.
and specific to the topic of the loyalty program, DL generates far more revenue from its loyalty program than any other airline in the world, that number is NOT going down but is still growing.
In addition, DL intends to continue to grow its maintenance overhaul revenue and its new airplane order will reflect the ability to do that. Given that the GEnx engine is the only widebody engine on in-service aircraft that DL does not service (other than the Trent XWB 97 which powers the A350-1000), DL will be in a position to overhaul and maintain all of the new generation engines that AA and UA and every other US airline flies which means that DL’s profits will be further boosted as it serves as the US’ airline engine maintenance provider.
“Under the category of Non-GAAP Financial Information (continued), in order to calculate its Non-GAAP Adjusted Operating Expenses, UAL FROM ITS Operating Expenses excluding Special Charges, EXCLUDES Fuel Expense, Profit Sharing, Third Party Business Expenses to come up up with its Non-GAAP Adjusted Operating Expenses of $9,021,000,000. In other words, United wants to create its own measure of expenses (which is why it is non-GAAP) which DOES NOT INCLUDE Profit Sharing. Not only does UA paid $100 million LESS in profit sharing than DL but it wants to pretend it didn’t pay profit sharing so it can talk about how well it did. Delta does not exclude profit sharing. It is core and an ongoing part of its expenses and it is not “special.”
Once again, you prove to the world how little you know about financials in general and aviation in particular. This is exactly what happens when Tim Dunn tries to argue data he doesn’t understand. He changes his argument rather than defending his initial argument. First you say it was adjusted out by UA to inflate profit margins which was categorically untrue as proven previously. Now you say UA took profit sharing out as an adjustment from operating expenses which our messiah DL would never ever do.
These are two systemically and categorically different arguments. You always change your argument, but you never fail to be wrong in each and every rendition. Perhaps politics is your forte, because aviation clearly isn’t.
So since it wasn’t adjusted out of either carriers profit margins, then it begs the question, where is profit sharing adjusted out? I’ll take an Atlanta based airline who reported last week to show how a Chicago based airline did something similar AKA the same thing.
DL
Operating Expense 13.504B
Adjusted for:
MTM adjustments and settlements on hedges 0.021B
Third-Party Refinery Sales -0.935B
=Adjusted operating expense 12.590B (Used for adjusted margin)
Further adjustment for:
Aircraft Fuel and Related Taxes -2.936B
PROFIT SHARING -0.417B
MTM adjustments and settlements on hedges above EXCLUDED -0.021B
=Adjusted Non-Fuel Cost 9.216B (Not used for adjusted margin, used for CASM-ex)
UA
Operating Expense 12.745B
-Adjusted for
Special Charges -0.029B
=Operating Expense, excluding special charges 12.716B (Used for adjusted margin)
Further adjustment for:
Fuel Expense -3.342B
PROFIT SHARING -0.301B
Third-Party Business Expenses -0.52B
=Adjusted Operating Expenses 9.021B (Not used for adjusted margin, used for CASM-ex)
It’s clear Tim saw the title discrepancy of “Adjusted Non-Fuel Cost” by Delta and “Adjusted Operating Expenses” used by United and told himself “Call the President, we got ‘em dead to rights!” without actually checking the numbers rather than the labels used.
It’s clear that Tim isn’t an analyst nor a pilot. There’s no way someone as blind, deaf, and as incapacitated as him would pass even a 3rd class medical. Helen Keller move over, the eternal hangar queen in the comments that is Tim Dunn is here and he’s never gonna give you up, nor is he going to let you down.
DL and UA take out profit sharing for different reasons.
UA takes it as an ADJUSTMENT. DL takes it as part of its CASM-ex calculation.
I’m sorry if you don’t understand the difference.
And you STILL CAN’T and WON’T deal w/ the reality that UA paid $100 million less in profit sharing w/ DL.
For someone that is so defensive, you can’t grasp the true bottom line.
but it’s all about people, right?
Let’s not forget that YOU were the one that accused me of making up the fact that UA adjusted out profit sharing and NOW you come back and say “sure enough that is true but DL did the same thing” without understanding the difference in how and where the two are calculated.
You truly are data illiterate. I spelled out the answer for you, and you still can’t get it. Being a mental midget is one thing, but you’re unteachable and beyond help. Is there any wonder why you’re constantly written off by others.
Delta even explains that it adjust out profit sharing from expenses and provides justification.
Delta: We adjust OPERATING EXPENSE and CASM for certain items described above, as well as the following items and reasons described below:
Profit sharing. We adjust for profit sharing because this adjustment allows investors to better understand and analyze our recurring cost performance and provides a more meaningful comparison of our CORE OPERATING COSTS to the airline industry.
It’s best that you probably step away from the keyboard, but you probably don’t have anywhere else to go. Feel free to keep digging yourself a hole and while the rest of us continue to burry you.
Again, Tim. You’re using ovaries instead of your brain to understand financials. So it’s no surprise that you don’t get it.
“we caught on that United, in its earnings release, ADJUSTED OUT profit sharing for its employees in order to produce an ADJUSTED margin that was higher than Delta’s.”
Taking profit sharing to produce an inflated adjusted margin is NOT true and not what UA nor DL did. This is different than taking profit sharing out of operating expense. You don’t know the difference, I pointed out the difference but of course 10 different people can tell you 20 different ways in 30 different languages in 40 different dances and you still won’t get it.
You’ll never get it, and that’s what makes you Tim Dunn we all know and definitely not love. The punching bag for the comment section.
for someone that is so fast to accuse me of incompetence in financial analysis, you still fail to:
Admit that UA paid just 75% of the profit sharing that DL paid despite supposedly making the same amount of money
UA adjusted out profit sharing right off the top.
DL adjusts out refinery expenses because it is not part of the basic operation of the airline. DL calculates CASM ex to exclude profit sharing among other items.
Both airlines adjust out extraordinary/special items as other companies.
If you can’t see the difference in the approach DL and UA take in their calculations and what they claim, then you are the one that is incompetent.
And UA specifically was pressed during its earnings call by a Wall Street analyst on its claims that they are replacing the capacity at EWR from having to reduce flights by using larger aircraft. UA execs finally admitted that the analyst could not accurately use the revenue projections for EWR before the summer and UA’s operational meltdown any longer. In other words, UA is NOT recapturing all of the revenue from the flights it had to cut.
UA is always “everything is rosy” until they are pressed on details when they finally admit otherwise.
UA is not changing its elite requirements because they need to fill seats on airplanes and are losing revenue in key markets.
Employee compensation is behind DL even before UA coughs up the money for a flight attendant contract.
@Tim Dunn and @DL Marketing Premium: Kindly take your dispute to the other side of the swings in the schoolyard. The topic of this thread is, “Delta Announces Rollback Of Severe SkyMiles Changes”.
With regard to the rollback (whether temporary or not) of DL’s SkyRuble cuts, I am interested in the give and take of the commenters. I find it generally useful and insightful.
With regard to the profitibility of DL vs. UA (or any other airline), please see the last line that Clark Gable said to Vivian Leigh in “Gone With The Wind”.
With regard to Frequent Flyer status, I’m too old and comfortable in my own skin at close to 75 years old (won’t say how close) to chase that chimera beyond where I am (lifetime Marriott Titanium gives UA silver, Amex Plat gives Hilton and IHG something, and DL 1 MM gives, well…DL Silver/Gold).
I buy travel based on price and schedule, and use my points of all flavors when I can. It’s my money, not my employer’s or my client’s. (Actually, I’m a charter member of the SKI Club — Spending Kid’s Inheritance). Retired and widowed (twice) means I have time to travel.
Lounge access is generally what I want for the trips I take, in addition to price and schedule. I have a lifetime pass to the United Club (purchased when I graduated law school 50 years ago for the magnificent sum of $250) for UA, my Amex Plat for DL and Centurion (a nice club at DFW if I’m on AA), and my Chase Sapphire for Priority Pass in lots of places.
Good fortune to all of you.
@Retired Lawyer” Great post from someone not named Dunn or DL Marketing Whatever.
You’ve definitely got it figured out and love that you’re “hitting the slopes” with the SKI Club!
No where in Delta’s release do the mention “Lifetime” the very carefully chosen wording is “annual Complimentary Medallion Status”