A young woman was shocked at the start of a 10 hour Lufthansa flight in economy, as a woman “shoved [her] seat forward” and told her that she’s “not allowed to recline” for the duration of the trip. Why? Because “it’s too much for her.” She asks her audience what she should do?
@tfutchh What would you do? #traveltiktok #solotravel #hostellife ♬ queen of disaster with sparkles – ˚ ˚｡° ⋆♡˚ ꒰ ྀི ◞ ˕ ก ꒱ ⭐️
To be clear, you are allowed to recline if your seat reclines (except during takeoff and landing, when you’re instructed by crew to be in a full upright position for safety), and seat recline can be important for comfort especially on long flights with poorly-padded seats.
Recline works to distribute passenger weight and reduce back stress. Reclining is also a basic right when it’s a feature of your seat (certain airlines like Spirit and Frontier feature seats they call “pre-reclined” i.e. that do not recline).
- A passenger controls their own seat
- Airlines ban the Knee Defender device, which prevents recline – a device was designed to stop reclining. While their interest is prevent damage to the seat, they do not allow the passenger seated behind to interfere with the recline function
However, there is an etiquette to exercising your right to recline:
- Don’t recline during mealtime.
- Try not to recline unless it serves a real purpose (if it doesn’t actually benefit your comfort, don’t recline).
- Let them know you’re going to recline, and do it gently. That helps keep this from happening:
@Delta small note for the suggestion box, maybe have a little warning sign or someway to prevent my laptop from being destroyed when the person in front of me reclines their seat. pic.twitter.com/QHmphXiDhH
— Pat “Beave” Cassidy (@HardFactorPat) February 26, 2020
If you don’t want the passenger in front of you to recline, politely ask them not to. And if they want to recline and you don’t want them to, consider whether it’s worth your while to make not reclining worth their while. Many years ago all it took was $5 (offered with a parent’s permission) for me to convince a child seated in front of me not to recline so that I could work effectively on my laptop.
The product you’re buying in a standard coach seat usually does not offer very much space. Keep in mind that both Southwest Airlines and JetBlue offer more space than United, Delta, or American. Not all airlines are the same! And many international airlines offer more space in coach than U.S. airlines do.
Airlines offer premium products, whether extra legroom or first class, that you can purchase. Maybe it’s worth the extra money to you. Sometimes it isn’t much extra at all and this even exists on Spirit Airlines.
Whatever you do, though, don’t go all vigilante on the seat recliner in front of you and don’t push the seat that’s reclined in front of you, either. You may wind up in a conflict that winds up with the plane diverting and law enforcement coming on board to take you away.
(HT: Live and Let’s Fly)
In my days of flying coach, I only had one request not to recline. It was on a trans-Atlantic flight. I suggested that if she could convince the person in front of me not to recline, I’d do it. It shut her up.
Why are you picking on people named “Karen”? That’s pretty rude.
I am going to take full advantage of the two inches the miserable airlines give us and if the idiot behind me complains they wont like my response
i’m getting bored continuing to own the triggered but your cognitive dissonance is amusing
from the wiki
please concentrate on the language regarding the burden of proof, and who owns it:
+++
A negative claim is a colloquialism for an affirmative claim that asserts the non-existence or exclusion of something.[13] Proofs of negative claims are common in mathematics. Such claims include Euclid’s theorem that there is no largest prime number, and Arrow’s impossibility theorem. There can be multiple claims within a debate, nevertheless, whoever makes a claim usually carries the burden of proof regardless of positive or negative content in the claim.[14] [15]
A negative claim may or may not exist as a counterpoint to a previous claim. A proof of impossibility or an evidence of absence argument are typical methods to fulfill the burden of proof for a negative claim.[13][16]
Philosopher Steven Hales argues that typically one can logically be as confident with the negation of an affirmation. Hales says that if one’s standards of certainty leads them to say “there is never ‘proof’ of non-existence”, then they must also say that “there is never ‘proof’ of existence either”. Hales argues that there are many cases where we may be able to prove something does not exist with as much certainty as proving something does exist.[13]: 109–112 A similar position is taken by philosopher Stephen Law who highlights that rather than focusing on the existence of “proof”, a better question would be whether there is any reasonable doubt for existence or non-existence.[17]
If you are told not to recline by the passenger behind you, go tell the stewardess. They will make sure the passenger won’t be bothering you again. So simple to solve.
I will recline whenever I want to. Simple.
Please remember that most seats on US airlines allow less then 1/2 inch recline. And that sometimes passengers reclining have back issues and are in pain.
This happened to me yesterday I was flying from Porto Seguro to Rio De Janeiro. We have been Airborne for about 5 minutes and I reclined my seat and the man behind me screamed at me excuse me but you’re not allowed to recline your seat while the seatbelt sign is on. My response to him was don’t worry about it you’re not going to be able to exit at this point anyway. If you are we’re all going down together and he slammed my seat with the full force of his body back into its position. I reclined it back to where I was and continued my flight and uninterrupted by the goon behind me.
Sounds like aggravated battery to me. I would have had law enforcement involved.
Its unbelievable how immature adults have become.whining, hollering, throwing tantrums, being aggressive, contributing to flight delays. If you want top tier comfort, fly first class! passengers have the right to recline in a seat THEY PAID FOR. What people need to stop doing is telling people how to sit in the seat they purchased with their own money. And please for the love of God, stop sitting in other passengers assigned seats. I’m 17 years old and it’s so irritating and embarrassing to see full blown, overgrown adults act this way, especially in public, it’s humiliating to yourselves. GROW UP AND BEHAVE YOURSELVES!
You get what you pay for. Less expensive tickets buy you a seat, not comfort. On long hauls, if I can’t get a seat with sufficient leg room, I don’t fly.
Stop being selfish twats and learn to sleep upright or buy a lieflat in business.
Suggest.she buy a ticket in first class, Otherwise,Tell Karen, politely and in the most loving way, that she doesn’t control the world as you ring the attendant request.
Airplane seats should not recline. Full stop. There isn’t enough space allotted to permit anyone to voluntarily take up more, and the risk to your electronics is real. It SHOULDN’T be that there’s so little space on airplanes that leaning back half an inch sends the person behind you into a blind rage, but that’s where we are. I have never reclined an airline seat unless the person in front of me reclines so far back that I’m forced to, and I never cease to be amazed that anyone can be so selfish as to believe that it’s an acceptable behavior.
If seats didn’t recline we’d all be so much better off.
If you don’t want the person in front of you to recline on a long haul flight then pay for an upgraded seat or 1ST class.
Those duck lips.
What’s wrong with your lips? They look like duck lips.
Wow lots of misconceptions here.
Reclining is NOT a right.
As the saying goes, your right to swing your arms around however you want ends at my nose.
If you recline into soneone elses personal space, then you are violating their rights, and they are justified in defending their rights.
Bottom line, do not recline… under any circumstances, regardless of whatever excuse you have made up to make you feel better about it.
Gary,
You may want to do a little more research on this. There are now more than one court decisions that clearly disagree that it is a ‘right’ to recline. In fact, legally it is the other way around … You may only recline with the permission of the person seated behind you. If you recline without their permission, then you are stealing their space, and are legally liable for civil damages. If you recline and the seat OR TRAY touches the person behind you, that is legally assault, and you could go to jail. That’s the actual law, and IMHO you are making the situation worse by spreading misinformation.
Shoving the seat is of course not an acceptable response, but consider that from their point of view you just shoved the tray into their belly or seat into their knees. Tit for tat doesn’t make anything right, but from a legal perspective, the person reclining their seat initiated the incident, which is possibly assault, and the person behind them has every right to defend themselves.
Aircraft manufacturers need to build airlocks into their aircrafts so that cabin pressure may be maintained while rejecting such unruly passengers… Without a parachute of course. (There is precedent for this when Captains of ships made crew members walk the plank… without a life vest of course, for various infractions.
I believe the threat of such judge, jury and execution treatment by cabin crew would put an end to a lot of the chaos we see on commercial flights today.
There does need to be a way to prevent injury to people and structures on the ground when the elections occur.
Simple solution – make airline seats like “wall hugger recliners” -so when you recline you lose leg room – but the person behind loses nothing. That way it’s your choice how you suffer
An adult should be able to have a brief discussion, using tact and diplomacy, with the other passenger to resolve the situation swiftly and amicably.
If that doesn’t work (because one of the two of you have the social abilities of a child) contact the stewardess. They may not enjoy it but, passenger conflict resolution is part of their job. It may result in someone having to move but, 99.9% of the time, they’ll find a way to fix it.
If this is the kind of issue you have to ask others for help on, consider drinking the stuff in the bottles under the kitchen sink. You’re never gonna make it. May as well end it all now.
@Matthew King – please cite the case law that reclining is ‘stealing another passenger’s space’ …
GARY, IF YOU RECLINE IN FRONT OF ME. I HAVE MANY WAYS TO MAKE YOU UNCOMFORTABLE TO. I AM 6 FOOT 3 , 260 POUNDS FLOWN.OVER 300 TIMES HAVE YET TO RECLINE. I HAVE PUT THE SEAT BACK TO SEE WHY ANYONE WOULD WANT TO SCREW THE GUY BEHIMD YOU. MAKE VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE. WHEN THE GUY IN FRONT OF ME WANTS RECLINE I PAY THE GUY IN FRONT OF HIM 20 DOLLARS TO RECLINE HIS SEAT. THEY DON’T LIKE IT. DON’T BE A ASS!
@Gary – My suggestion was that you should do a little more research, not that I was volunteering to do it for you. (Hints though … the lawyer who won her lawsuit against someone reclining into her is from Oregon.)
But lets consider your assertion of ‘rights’. Firstly, airline policy cannot create or take away ‘rights’. Secondly, to basic common sense, the ‘recliner’ is obviously invading the space of the person behind them, and is clearly the aggressor. Consider the attitude displayed by the posters threatening violence against the person behind them if they do not submit. The ‘recliner’ is both the aggressor, and who is initiating the conflict.
Of course shoving back is its own problem. Thats inappropriate, immature, and also likely illegal. Just like if someone standing in line to board steps too close to you, or in general anywhere someone gets too close, you should just ask them nicely to respect your personal space. You do have a legal right to that space, and to not be touched (including by the chair or tray) without your permission.
To my way of thinking, de-escalation needs to be the objective in the overcrowded pressure cookers of commercial air travel. Insisting that you have the ‘right’ to physically invade someone else’s space and or touching them in a way they are clearly objecting to, is at best not de-escalating an already tense and stressful situation, and at worst is assault.
My point to you Gary is that you are promoting the idea that its ok to insist on your perceived rights. That you are justified in literally pushing that ‘right’ into someone else’s face and daring them to defend themselves.
Is that who you want to be?
Tell the airlines to give us back our space!!!
I’m saying @Matthew King that if you want to assert a claim that there’s a binding legal precedent that reclining one’s seat steals the space that belongs to someone else and that this is actionable, back up your claim with a citation.
I am 6’5″ and have had pax in front of me complain to FAs because I wasn’t allowing them to recline their seats. It was not voluntary on my part; I had no other place to put my knees than in the back of the seat once they reclined it. And, yes, I do whatever I can to avoid this situation by buying first/business class tickets or flying on airlines where I have access to exit row or extra legroom seats. However, it is unavoidable sometimes.
The recline function serves no real purpose on most flights, so it should be eliminated. Not only would it take away once source of potential conflict on a flight (which impacts pax and FAs), but it would also reduce the cost of maintaining the seats because of the lack of a recline mechanism.
I would never behave like the pax in the article, but I have pushed back gently when someone reclines abruptly and forcefully without warning while I am using my laptop. It’s a reflex reaction more than anything else from occasions when my open laptop has almost gotten smashed by someone. These mishaps could be minimized or even eliminated if the recline mechanism only allowed the recline to be gradual. It might be expensive for the airlines, but it wouldn’t be necessary if people were self-aware enough to realize that their reclining is not only impacting their comfort but also that of the person behind them.
Reclining your seat might be a right, but, like all other rights, it needs to be used responsibly.
Matthew King, give me citation for your dubious assertion. Are you a practicing attorney or did you get this information from an internet blog. And I doubt the real lawyers for the airlines would allow passengers to recline if the approval of the person behind you was required
So give me the case citation
The discussions here show so much how civility has been lost in today’s society. Me, me, me. Regardless of age, they seem to act like babies. Me, me, me.
I despise reclining chairs and dread the moment I’m going to have my space invaded from in front. I’ve had people refuse to stop reclining even at mealtime.
I see no reason for these chairs to exist. Anyone who is fatigued enough can sleep in an upright chair. Put in comfortable non reclinable chairs get us to where we’re going and we can sleep there.
Can we stop the institutionalized use of Karen pejorative? It’s racist to Thai people (there really is an ethnic group called Karen). Not to mention terrible that any person should wake up one day to see that the internet in its infinite wisdom has associated their name with the worst behavior humanity has to offer. Replace your insensitive title.
Hey Gary,
I am not trying to pick a fight, though you seem intent on it.
Yes, I have personally won a lawsuit, as have others, against ‘recliners’. In my case, it was settled out of court, so there is no ‘citation’. A very quick search will show you plenty of cases, all of which ruled against the ‘recliner’.
Bottom line, it has nothing to do with FAA regulations, nor airline regulations. They do not make the law. The ‘law’ of common sense does apply here. If you shove your body, or your chair,… or your car… into someone else’s personal space, then you are the aggressor, and they do have the right to defend themselves. Of course, that defense does need to be appropriate, and shoving back is not appropriate.
It is clear that you are on the side of wanting to push the idea that it is ok to force yourself on another person, and then claim it is your ‘right’ because the chair mechanism doesnt prevent you from doing so. My question again is that who you want to be?
Just for the sake of clarity, what has worked to legally defend one’s self against someone reclining their seat is:
1) Politely ask them to stop, because they are encroaching on your personal space, and/or touching you in a way that makes you uncomfortable.
2) If they do not desist, then ask the flight attendant to ask them to stop encroaching on your personal space and stop touching you.
3) If that does not resolve the issue, then ask the flight attendant to please escalate the issue to the PIC, because you are being assaulted.
If none of that works, then the civilized thing to do is to defend yourself with legal action, and involve law enforcement. Getting angry and confrontational will not help.
@Matthew King – no fight, just looking for clarity. You say you’ve settled out of court in a lawsuit, there’s no legal precedent you know of establishing a right not to have the person in front of you recline. That’s simply what I was looking for. If you’ve gotten compensation more power to you! That’s just a different claim than you were making at the outset and I was seeing clarity and specificity. Thanks!
Whom did you sue, what happened that prompted the suit, and how much compensation did you receive?
@Gary
As usual with settlements, I agreed not to reveal specifics. What I can say is that it was a substantial settlement, and opposing counsel did not disagree with our claim that reclining the seat into my space was a violation of my rights. Thats worth repeating… the lawyer on the other side did not dispute that reclining is a violation of the rights of the person behind you. There are a number of cases out there establishing this legal precedent. Its not limited or changed by being on an airplane.
Really though, it is about choosing to be nice, rather than insisting on your perceived ‘rights’. For example, it is the usual thing that the airline victim stuck in the middle seat gets both arm rests. Thats a good idea, but it is not a ‘right’. My starting point was that your statement that it someone has the ‘right’ to recline sets a bad tone that tends to lead to confrontation, as well as being legally inaccurate.
As the old saying goes, “Your right to swing your arm around how you want to, ends at my nose.” When you do something that encroaches someone else’s space, or touches them, in a way that makes them uncomfortable… then you are in the wrong and should stop.
If it is illegal to recline you seat then why do they have them I think the airline just did not want the bad publicity it can not be law if it was then all the airlines would have taken them off there plans
By reclining your seat you are invaded the space of the person sitting behind. It is unnecessary and rude. Space is so limited that the airlines should solve the problem by giving an electric shock to the recliner.
I hope I never encounter any of you on a plane. What a bunch of self centered disgusting human beings. Sueing someone for reclining their seat. What an asshole! Get over yourselves.
If its illegal to drive my car through your front door into your house, why do cars have gas pedals?
Note, I did not sue the airline. It is not their responsibility. I sued, and won a large settlement, from the person that reclined their seat into my space.
Just stop and think about your basic argument that you have the ‘right’ to shove yourself into someone else’s space, and the ‘right’ to touch them, without their permission. The airline cannot give you that ‘right’.
As others in this thread have mentioned, stop thinking about ‘me me me me me’ and what you think is your ‘right’. Instead how about thinking about what you can do to make the experience more pleasant, or at least less unpleasant, for everyone involved.
What about overweight people who take up your leg room or just men in general who frequently do this? Can I sue then since their thigh is touching my thigh because their legs are splayed open?
@gene
Just so I have this straight…
Someone reclines their seat into me in a very uncomfortable way. I ask them very politely to stop. Then the flight attendant asks them nicely to stop. They go on a rant about how its their ‘right’ to recline. “I dont care who it hurts. Its my right to recline!” were their actual words.
I didnt shove their seat. I didnt raise my voice. I just asked nicely for them to stop hurting me.
But according to you, I”m the asshole?
Matthew, Matthew, Matthew,
After reading your conversations,
I’m absolutely shocked that you sued over 1-2 inches of space! !!!!!!!
You of course are absolutely free to choose for yourself what works for you, but it seems pretty petty to me.
I’m judging. Perhaps you are a large man and those 1-2 inches truly imposed on your frame and caused you terrible, painful discomfort.
If so. My apologies. Civility lost over 2 inches. So sad. I’m sure glad it wasn’t something truly offensive like using a racial slur or degrading your partner by belittling them in public.
Thank you for providing your picture on your profile. If I ever see you on a plane or walking in a crowded hallway where our shoulders might accidentally bump, I would not like to be under the threat of lawsuit for assaulting you.
And I’m deleting this story from my internet service as soon as I send this, not because I’m afraid of your response, I just have no desire to read any more if your self importance propaganda.
I can see both sides. Already cramped seats become more intolerable when reclining happens. I tolerate it since I know people have the right to do so, but as a practice I never recline myself because I don’t like to cramp others.
Why can’t we have the understanding that booking a seat on the port side of the plane seats you amongst people who are fine with reclining. If you book a seat on the starboard side, you endeavour to stay upright and expect the same of the person infront.
I’m not sure if reclining is a right, but I’m 100% sure @matthew king is full of sh*t.
>But according to you, I”m the asshole?
Yes. Yes you are.
People here are entitled. Not everyone can afford a business class upgrade and still want to be comfortable. I had no issues with a man in front of me reclining while our plane was stuck on the tarmac for 2 hours, and said nothing, but my knees were trapped and I was extremely uncomfortable. He started screaming at me because he could feel my knees and refused to move his seat upright because he told me he had “the right to be comfortable”. Apparently I don’t have the same right? For taller people it is UNAVOIDABLE. Note that I never said anything until he yelled at me, and when I politely asked him to move his seat upright to resolve HIS issue he said no.
Seats should just not recline, full stop.
How is this even a debate? Who are these “you can’t recline your seat” people? Are you all under the age of 35? I’m 55 and have flown my whole life and this has never been an issue except in the last 5 years or so. I think if you’re on here whining about the person in front of you having the right to try and become slightly more comfortable, then you need to post your age because you’re likely part of the entitled generation.
Sincerely – old curmudgeon
Im 54, ex military, and not part of the new generation…
Id like to point out that in your own words you refer to the ‘right to try and become slightly more comfortable’ which is itself literally entitled. Again, there is no ‘right’ to recline. There is no ‘right to try and become slightly more comfortable’. There may be reasonable expectations, but they are not ‘rights’.
The problem, which I have stated from the beginning of this thread, is pushing the opinion that you are entitled to the ‘right’ to recline. As soon as someone thinks its a ‘right’ to recline, then the problems start. Thats entitlement. “I have the right to recline… REGARDLESS OF WHO IT HURTS”
There is a right to personal space. There is a right to not be touched without your permission. Those things are actual, legal, rights. Comfort is not a right.