Comments

1. Gary, I checked your balloon statement and mentioned a correction some time ago. Tethered time is not counted and total free balloon would very limited for consideration by any airline. (Yes, I did count an hour on the way to a commercial, but that was just for fun.) I suggest not going down this rabbit hole as it can confuse readers. Anyway I suspect that like most accidents it was a chain of bad decisions/situations that could have been broken, but who knows. And hopefully nobody will take the bait and accept Delta’s initial offer to buy them off.

2. I’m going with wind shear. Plane was feathering until pushed down as shown on film from plane waiting

3. “The captain of the Toronto Endeavor flight reportedly failed out of Delta first officer training and was sent back to the regional carrier where they remained in charge of an aircraft.”

   Who is “they”? Was there more than one captain?

4. I heard something about a flap actuator fault, but there’s a lot of noise surrounding this incident, so who knows. It doesn’t seem fair to start questioning the competence of the pilots without first knowing what went wrong.

5. @Dave Correct. “They” is commonly misused in recent years. They means plural. Singular is “it” but transgender people don’t want to be called an “it”. It should be …”was sent back to the regional carrier where he remained in charge of an aircraft” or “…where he/she remained in charge…”

   This confirms my long held belief that regional airlines (formerly called commuter airlines) are staffed with less experienced pilots. Often, it makes no difference but sometimes experience matters.

6. What caused this aircraft to lose a wing and roll over like that? Girl power, baby!

   OK, I’, sure it’s more nuanced that that – but we’ll see that girl power was involved too. And those of you who are laughing at the spectre of DEI being brought into the chat may not laugh as much once the entire story comes out. It certainly won’t all be the fault of DEI policies, but this will be a factor. Mark my words.

7. According to Delta CEO Tim Dunn, this was a perfect landing from a perfect airline

8. Unfortunately, everyone is new at some point. No amount of training can account for flukey incidents or someone ultimately choking in the moment. Statistically, this is bound to happen. Fortunately, it doesn’t happen too often. But, to me, it’s notable that the last 3 or 4 US-flagged commercial airplane crashes all involved regional jets.

9. Gary,
   Can we simply assume that there’s a lot more to the story and you are fanning the flames here?

10. @FNT Delta Diamond: there’s a reason for that. Those regionals get the greenest pilots and the ones who can’t make it to the mainline carriers. And, if you think back to the last big one in 2009….that Q400 was flown by a regional carrier too (Colgan for Continental Express).

11. Can we just address the big issue facing the entire flying public….The shortage of truly qualified pilots. The mandatory pilot retirement age is taking away our most qualified pilots and Congress needs to address this immediately by following the recommendations of the ICAO to raise the pilot age.

12. “I am not going to say that I know the cause of this incident yet with any confidence.”

    Let’s be very clear that you have no basis for guessing anything about ANY of the multiple crashes – but that doesn’t stop you.

    Any logical person would recognize there are multiple investigations going on.

    Accidents are rarely the result of one factor and all of the factors involved have to be considered.
    Something clearly went wrong and it is incumbent on finding out what went wrong no matter how damning it is for any one party.

    Still, there is a VERY LONG history of people rushing to judgment about all kinds of things only to be proven wrong.

    The incessant guessing about the announcements that WN would make – followed by massive layoffs – is proof. Simply arguing that you got it right because you threw so many theories at the wall that one had to be right is cowardice.

13. Thanks, Gary, nice article. For sure I appreciate reading about Karlene Petitt, I’d gladly ride in any of the many aircraft she’ type certified for.

14. Hey @AngryFlier, there are a number of reasons that they could lose a wing on a hard landing, I’m sure that the Safety Board will figure that out. As for the roll, several aircraft blogs have pointed out that the remaining Port Wing still had lift at that speed, which is why the slow 180 degree roll.

15. @AngryFlier:

    Thanks for your wonderful insight.

16. @AngryFlyer almost all major commercial aviation accidents have occurred with men at the controls.

17. Texas TJ,
    there is a whole lot that has been written about Karlene Pettit but what is clear is that she was let go from DL essentially because she was unable to work as a part of a team. She has made her post DL career one of finding fault w/ DL. She may or may not be right but understanding anyone’s bias is part of the responsibility of anyone that quotes a source.

    she, just like Gary, loves to throw stuff around to grab attention but that hardly makes it factual.

18. @ORDPilot: not this one.

19. I hear they have withdrawn the original 10,000 delta sky miles offer after being ridiculed
    and upped the ante to 30k per pax.
    Does it include a complimentary one time pass to the Delta Sky Club to anyone 95 or older accompanied with their parents?
    All kidding aside relieved everyone made it out alive.

20. If I saw Karlene Pettit on the flight deck of any airplane (and quite honestly even as a passenger, on the off chance something would go wrong and she would volunteer her services) I would find some other way to my destination or just not go.

21. So basically it looks like the situation was one of a brand new commercial pilot being tasked to land in highly challenging conditions, with that decision itself being made by a pilot who is experienced, but just not very good at the job.

    Topped off with tons of schedule changes over a 5 day period.

    Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

22. Withholding pilot information for this amount of time just screams incompetence at the highest level.

23. Too bad the first officers runway experience as a model doesn’t transfer to landing jets. Hear she is Miss DEI.

24. no, lars,
    that is the ACCUSATION of a few people that may or may not even have correct information.

    just as in the US, Canada does thorough and detailed investigations and they don’t throw information out in advance just to generate media attention.

25. The plane’s right back landing gear/wheel collapsed on the hard landing and made the plane tip to the right and send the plane into a forward right side flip that first broke off the right wing and then the left wing hit on the right side and broke off and slowed the plane down along with what was left of the tail.

    The question I have is why the right back landing gear/wheel collapsed or broke off upon what seemed to be a rather text book landing for the conditions before that right rear wheel/landing gear gave in and made this accident what it was.

26. Why is it we don’t have a name for the CA? It seems someone at Endeavor was so ready to throw the FOs name out there. Why are we as a society protecting the MALE CA!?!?

27. When you don’t know gender or it is not germane to the sentence you can use they for a singular person. It is much more graceful than using “he/she did xyz”. Does doing that hurt you in some way? It makes things more simple to me.

    Hopefully the FAA and Canada equivalent will get us a preliminary report even if the full investigation takes longer. I’d rather have accurate news than supposition and ridiculous theories.

28. AngryFlyer just loves to bash on women and visible ethnic minorities on the job and believes that CIS-presenting heterosexual European-American males are better hires and better at the job for the level of education & experience than women and minorities. Appreciate that flying on US common carrier flights has gotten safer as the civil rights movement and DEIA grew in popularity in the country. Now that we have DEI (old boys network) for Euro-American males once again, we see people like Hegseth and Sean Duffy put in charge and in over their heads from the start.

29. The landing was hardly textbook, at the exact moment of touchdown it was probably defending at least 20 ft/second (1,200 ft/min), or double the usual rate of descent. Little room for error with a wing clearance of less than two meters (1.93M) above the ground. That being said, would definitely avoid flying on any CRJ where the pilot has had a dozen schedule changes in the last few days, combined with very little experience landing in 40 MPH crosswind conditions.

30. GU Wonder said :”The question I have is why the right back landing gear/wheel collapsed or broke off upon what seemed to be a rather text book landing”

    This one’s easy: Because it’s not a Cessna with spring-steel gear, designed to take a “landing” where the pilot flies the plane into the ground..pilot misjudged height above the runway and flew to plane into…not onto..the ground.

    This is pilot error.

31. GUWonder, what I’ve gathered from pilot videos is that the RJ didn’t flare, which is done to slow the vertical sink rate in half. Depending on aircraft type, that flare usually happens around 300-400 feet above ground level, depending on aircraft type. There was pitch-up input observed on the elevators, but the plane didn’t have enough airspeed to do the flare. This resulted in a much harder landing.

    In a regional jet, the engines are on the tail, with the wings lower to the ground. This allows a lighter and smaller landing gear, but that shorter landing gear has less height to absorb a hard landing.

    To add to this, there was a cross-wind, so they were in a crab to maintain on path. The crab has to be removed to line up the plane direction with the runway, which can give more lift to one wing, which also has to be countered. Ideally, both main gear touchdown close to the same time. But, because of a raised left wing, the right gear touched down first, with higher energy because of no flare, and it couldn’t hold up to the force.

    Did the headwind stop at a critical point leading to insufficient airspeed to flare? Was the pilot monitoring watching the airspeed, or looking out the window to supervise coming out of the crab? Was there enough time for a go-around, and who should have called it? All this will come out in the investigation, along with other factors like fatigue.

32. GUWonder, you hit on the key question: why did the right main landing gear collapse? Video shows that the right wing sheared coincident with the collapse. There still being lift on the left wing without counterbalance likely caused the flip. But, what caused the gear failure? My sense is that the report will ultimately point to human error. But, we await the report.

33. ….. and yet we get back to the rear right landing gear/wheel not holding up for the landing and that causing the forward moving plane to flip to the right side. Why couldn’t that part of the plane handle the pressure from the landing? Some are inclined to think it’s pilot error, some more so if they can on-board the anti-DEIA narrative while at it.

34. Thanks, John, Jack and Captain Freedom.

35. Or, could it be that the pilot didn’t perform a proper transition from a crab configuration to flare and straighten. Which resulted in extra g-forces that damaged the landing gear?

    G-IWonder why the laws of physics aren’t woke enough to forgive people lacking the proper talent for challenging maneuvers (based on training records) from trouble because of their gender and/or ethnicity. Hiring the very best talents helps to lessen the chances of unforced errors. Yeah, I know, that’s hard to accept.

36. “The captain of the Toronto Endeavor flight reportedly failed out of Delta first officer training and was sent back to the regional carrier where they remained in charge of an aircraft.”

    Of all the details we know about the crash, this one is both the least relevant and least concerning. Regional pilots fail mainline upgrades all the time and get sent back to the regional. When they do, they get sent to the regional’s training center to retrain them back to the regional’s aircraft as they need to re-acclimate themselves to the workflows the regional uses because getting trained on a mainline most likely means a whole different aircraft with its own set of operational rules using a totally different workflow than what the pilot was using at the regional. The pilot will have to pass the retraining to re-enter service with the regional. Nobody gets a free pass. They have to earn their way back. Not everyone decides to go back. The idea of returning to that lower pay scale, which really is tough to live on, is a big pill to swallow a second time. As a result some quit. Some don’t.

    This is normal procedure and nothing to be alarmed about. So when someone seems to question “Oh how could they possibly be allowed back at the regional in charge of an aircraft after failing a mainline upgrade?” it says more about the lack of understanding on the part of the commenter on how things work at airlines than it underscores a problem at the airlines themselves. There is a system in place that has been used for decades and it works pretty well.

37. The schedule changes would NEVER be more tiring than an actual schedule. The crew would always be given enough time to rest and would have a cap on the time in flight.

    Eg. the schedule would never be moved up so the crew was suddenly sent to fly before the rest period was complete. And if a scheduled flight was delayed, that would provide more rest, not less.

38. I applaud you all for a (relatively) civil discussion here thus far—either that, or the ‘monsters’ have not come out yet. Though, some of you are wasting time on ‘pronouns.’ On such accidents and tragedies, it’s easy to become emotional and demand quick answers to complex questions. Hoping we learn from these incidents and improve the safety of passenger air travel for future generations.

39. This crew flew an ILS with a constant gradient. So they shpuld have had a stablized descent rate. There appears to be little to no flare at touchdown. On the aircraft I used to fly that was similar in size to this aircraft hitting the ground at 352 feet per minute required a maintenance write up and inspection. It looks as if they hit at around 700-1000 feet per minute. Given the limited travel of the oleo strut on the right landing gear, they likely experienced around 7Gs on touchdown. Given their passenger load, fuel and aircraft, the load on the right main gear could have been the equivilent to over 400,000 pounds. The landing gear is not built to take that kind of load.

40. I suggested that the finding will likely be human error. Some will conclude that if human error is committed by a person who is not a white straight male, it is because the person is not a white straight male is the reason the error was committed. That it is not possible for anyone other than a white straight male to be competent or proficient. Prove it. Scientifically. Statistically. My suggestion is that the pilot in command erred. That particular person. Whether that person was male or female or white or black or whatever.

41. @c, the landing was essentially a three-point landing. If crabbed, as someone has noted, you’d have lateral forces on the tire and the gear. Two passengers who were interviewed stated the ship slid after wheels down. There’s your answer. There’s your human error.

    Someone noted something about a failed flaps actuator. The video shows that SLATs were deployed but whether FLAPs were down isn’t discernible. However, flaps would be deployed 5 minutes prior to touchdown. An anomaly would have been observed prior to the heat of the moment. And, there would have been ample to declare an anomaly to ATC. So, I doubt this theory.

42. We don’t know what happened yet. Video shows that the aircraft feathered a little high,then kind of lost that. It could have been a sudden wind gust held them up, then the nose dropped. If Ms Pettit was pilot flying, she might have reacted just a second too slow under very challenging conditions. If her hours were really low, the captain really should have been pilot flying that leg. It’s not fair to put a rookie in that situation until they have more hours.

43. My frame of reference, Airline Pilot since 1981, still flying today. The comments here are unfortunate and few contain any factual information. I would ask that people hold their opinions until we know more factual data.

    Responding to the misstatements …

    To the guy who said the crosswind code-crab wasn’t accomplished. The right wind was low so the de-crab occurred consistent with a right crosswind. Note too the right main gear touched down first. Also consistent with proper de-crab inputs.

    One guy says Regional pilots fail upgrade at the majors all the time… Regional pilots failing upgrade at a major and returning to the regional is an exceptionally rare event and can indicate poor skills but every case is different. As an example, he may have been dealing with a family issue or other stressor that influenced performance in training. It’s possible he has performance issues but we don’t know that yet and he deserves the benefit of the doubt until we do. Don’t judge with knowing the facts.

    The FO had at least 1250 hours of flight to get her “restricted ATP” because she attended a Part 141 program at University of North Dakota. That is an exceptionally good school and aviation program and I’ve flown with numerous UND grads over the years. She was qualified but she was new. This is not a DEI issue as she was fully qualified, she met all the requirements and was there on the merits, her gender, or race for that matter, are irrelevant. Oh and this assumes that this is actually the FO on the flight. All speculation at this point.

    No we don’t flare 300 or 400 feet above the ground, it’s accomplished in a jet this size in the last 30-20 feet before touchdown. Literally seconds before touchdown. I fly an international wide body and the flare maneuver in my jet is begun at 40-30 feet above the ground. If she was receiving OE (Operating experience, required of all pilot new to an aircraft) the Captain was a Line Check Airman and should have recognized the high rate of descent and intervened. It’s quite possible he did but was just a second or two late. Speculation at this point, the report will tell us.

    What we know… the aircraft “appears” to have touched down with little or no flare. Despite this a touchdown at the normal rate of descent for an ILS at 130 knots or so is 650-750 fpm which should have not caused a structural failure. The aircraft did touch down on the right main landing gear so this may prove to be significant if no flare was accomplished. The analysis will tell us, until then, we don’t know.

    Please refrain from making drawing any more conclusions that aren’t based on verifiable information. It is quite possible this will be a matter of pilot error but it is equally possible there are other extenuating circumstances that were influential.

    Respectfully I request you please give this a rest until we know the facts.

44. John H’s flying knowledge couldn’t fill a thimble. Really flaring at 300-400 ft? You have never flown anything. In a CJR you might start a flare at 20 ft. In the 777 I flare at 30 ft, and grease it on.
    Y’all need to stick to FF issues. Very few have any idea what’s it is to fly anything other than a paper airplane.
    The history and experience of the cockpit crew is very important to the cause of this accident. Without getting all DEI, inexperienced pilots with little time in the aircraft can and do make mistakes. It’s unfortunate that all the pieces came together and the result was this crash. Thankfully everyone walked away.
    Like the DCA incident, a low time (500 hr) non current, non recent pilot was flying. Where are the instructors and supervisory pilots that were the PIC? Another link in the chain that failed to capture errors.

45. The released report will probably be of the form of a main cause and a number of contributory factors. The arguments are about where the factors will be on the report and assigning one as the main cause. Calculations of stresses using general modeling can come quickly but they have to be checked against the actual metallurgy of the failed parts to see if the mode of failure is consistent. That will take time and a group of experts.

46. OMAAT took the high road and published the information from Delta which counters the assertions here.

47. Everyone rushing to place blame before any contributing facts have been found are talking thru their hats. A multitude of factors could be involved here and no one knows what they are at this time. There is always a rush to blame the pilots, it is entirely possible the right main gear(only one gear per side with two wheels equipped with tires, there is no right rear landing gear on the CRJ) a tire, wheel or the gear failed. Once had a main wheel fracture and depart the aircraft (B707) on the ground while taxiing. Everyone, regardless of profession, must begin their journey (Doctors, lawyers & Indian Chiefs) from some basis,

48. One other factor to be analyzed, what was the reported runway condition, as if the runway is wet or slippery that may cause the pilot to plan on a firm touchdown rather than trying to grease it on.

    Those winds were causing havoc all over the Midwest and northeast so that is sure a large contributor to this.

49. If this is pilot error, one likely contributing factor will be visual illusions created by trying to judge closure rate with the ground covered in snow (runway and surrounding ground area). It is relatively easy to judge relative motion and closure rate in an environment with contrasting images (a grey runway, with white lines, surrounded by grass, etc). Much harder to judge closure if all you see is a sea of white with no contrast.

    There are artificial ways that assist pilots in judging sink rate such as artificial callouts of 50, 40, 30, 20, and 10 feet above the ground and the cadence that that occurs on a transport category airplane just comes with experience. I fear that a new hire, new to the airplane, and probably not a lot of experience flying in this kind of weather might have had difficulty judging the sink rate until it slammed onto the runway.

50. For the record ATP’s don’t get re-issued (ie… new date) when you go back for recurrent training!

    If she (FO) started in January of 2024 with Endeavour Air but her ATP certificate has an issue date of 1/09/2025, then something went extremely wrong during her training. Initial Training only last 3-4 months tops, that would put her finishing OE either May to June of 2024!