Hyatt, IHG and Marriott hotels all offer two paths for their most frequent guests to upgrade into suites: they can be confirmed in advance a limited number of times each year, or hotels should offer them suites that are still available on arrival. (The Hilton Honors program allows hotels to upgrade members to suites but does not require it, and 44% of their brands do not have to offer upgrades at all.)
The details of suite upgrades vary, for instance Hyatt lets Globalist members confirm suites at the time of booking, and any standard suite for sale can be used for an upgrade. In contrast, Marriott only starts upgrading into suites 5 days prior to check-in, and will only allocate standard suites they do not expect to sell.
Nonetheless, some hotels play games with their inventory (such as creating a category of limited rooms eligible for upgrade) and also refuse to provide upgrades at check-in. This is especially prevalent at Marriott, though Hyatt is not immune to the practice.
The general manager of a premium Los Angeles-area chain hotel writes to me, explaining why his hotel will not offer top tier elites to suites even though the chain requires them to do so.
[O]ne thing that has begun to impact upgrades are the housekeeping ordinances that are starting to pop up in major cities like Los Angeles. Where the room attendants can now only clean 3,500 sqft in a given day, and the hotels are now required by law to offer stayover service. Costs of hskp has increased so much that operators are having to figure out how to make things more efficient, which means not providing complimentary upgrades into suites because the cost to clean has doubled. So we will only upgrade to a higher floor + view.
Since the pandemic hotels have been cutting costs, trying to take advantage of high room rates to generate outsized profits after losing money in 2020 and in many markets also in 2021.
One way they’ve tried to do this is by eliminating daily housekeeping. Where it’s required to be offered it’s often only ‘on request’ and they sometimes make it difficult to request. When housekeeping is requested, the service may be limited to just making the bed (not changing linens), emptying trash, and swapping out towels left on the floor.
Hotel housekeeper unions have fought back, since their members have fewer jobs, fewer hours, and more work to do – a room that doesn’t get cleaned daily is more work to clean after check-out. Where this general manager oversees a hotel, in Los Angeles, they’re required to offer housekeeping to guests during their stay and the amount of work they can require of housekeepers is limited. A suite isn’t just more work to clean, it takes up more of each housekeepers allotment of work. Occupied suites mean more housekeepers they have to keep on staff.
Put another way, the hotel views offering upgrades into suites they haven’t sold as expensive rather than free. And the general manager views his job as limiting costs (“making things more efficient”) even if that means “not providing complimentary upgrades into suites” despite this being an express requirement of the chain his hotel is a part of.
I’d love to at least know what chain the hotel was in, and if you won’t give us that then at least give us some context as to why the hotel GM would be emailing such things to you.
@DCS
“Gary’s claim that there are programs that “guarantee” (suite) upgrades is simply nonsensical and everyone knows that it is nonsensical.”
Oh no brother – surely, that can’t be right:
Quote Hyatt website: “3. Suite Free Night Awards: Free Night Awards for suite accommodation (“Suite Free Night Awards”) are subject to availability.”
And on TPG:
“Over the years, I’ve found that applying suite upgrade certificates can be very inconsistent due to Hyatt’s dated computer system.”
Such real world experience just can’t be true, surely.
Let’s check in with Lucky at OMAAT:
https://onemileatatime.com/insights/frustrating-hyatt-suite-upgrade-award-process/
“…The process of applying these upgrades sometimes leaves a bit to be desired. Not only do you have to call Hyatt reservations, but they then have to contact the property. Some hotels are better about picking up the phone than others, and this is now an issue I’ve had a few times…”
Sorry, @ DCS, bit your insights must be gaslighting – despite the evidence, Gary Leff ways so.
Of course confirmed suite upgrades are ‘subject to availability.’ If there is a standard suite for sale, it can be confirmed in advance as an upgrade. But the room type may be sold out.
I have never had to ‘call’ to confirm a suite upgrade. I either email my Hyatt concierge or send a twitter DM to @HyattConcierge. Yes, the process is manual on the back end but that doesn’t much matter to me as the guest.
@Christian – the hotel GM is a reader, I’ve given the city but they don’t want to be identified and I am honoring that. They shared their thoughts with me by email, they were happy to have me share them further, and we were discussing consistency of hotel delivery of promised benefits and why individual properties don’t execute on what the chain commits to customers.
Yet another fabrication. Not only is it not possible to book so-called ‘confirmed’ suite upgrades online, WoH Globalists must call customer support, who then must contact individual properties, which, of course, have the sole discretion to determine availability — a process that OMAAT characterized as “frustrating”, as my “alter ego” already mentioned above.
That being the case, the notion that ‘if there is a standard suite for sale, it can be confirmed in advance as an upgrade” is yet another “big lie”. The only programs where it is true that “if there is any room, including standard suite, for sale, it can be confirmed in advance” are Accord ALL and Hilton’s so-called “premium award” because in those cases, points and cash are treated as being exactly the same. It is why Hilton’s “premium awards”, like airline “Any Time Awards”, are exorbitantly priced. There is a fixed conversion factor or ration between cash and points at each property that makes the two currencies interchangeable, allowing “premium awards”, including suites, to be booked online with points if they are available for booking with cash.
One more time: nothing can be “guaranteed” if its realization is contingent on something else happening first — from my undergraduate Philosophy 101 class. Any upgrade that depends on availability, which is itself at the sole discretion of individual properties, cannot possibly be “guaranteed”, no matter how often the “big lie” is repeated. In fact, that is precisely why WoH Globalists’ suite upgrade awards cannot be confirmed online!
“…a process that OMAAT characterized as “frustrating” as @platy, my “alter ego”, already mentioned above.”
I hesitate using “@platy” in my comments because that usually sends them into the moderation queue…
As just happened… 😉 !
Your comments often go to moderation, too, because of the links and extreme length the computer thinks you’re a spammer 😀
Bollocks to the lot of you.
FACT: Hilton is the greatest, followed by the Beet Farm tours @Schrute Farms.
FACT: Everywhere else is crap, especially Hyatt (Hey @JBPritzker – We still on for 18 this Sunday?)
Hilton has never failed to upgrade lifetime diamonds such as myself, ever during sold out events (Hilton Davos during the WEF, The Hilton Garden inn at Epstein Island, Hanoi Hilton during the hostilities in Vietnam, etc.).
Your constant berating of the planets best hotel loyalty program are unnecessarily pedantic and boorish. I will be recommending your termination from the Hhonors program during my gold game with Pritzker this afternoon – if that fat moron actually shows up at t-time…
Not encourage you to start sending my comments to the moderation queue, but I would say that no more than about 10% of mine go there. However, nearly 100% of my comments that mention “a certain someone” have ended up in the moderation queue, regardless of their length, as my very comment above that went there, just illustrated… 😉
Speaking of spammers how about getting rid of this “DeeCeeEss” troll once and for all? After posting here for about a decade, I am already known quantity and do not need anyone to claim to speak for me. If there is a point that the spammer wishes to make, then come out and make it and let’s duke it out so that I can expose the unethical spoofing and “cyber identity theft” for what it is trying to conceal: stupidity.
I recently stayed at a luxury Hilton property in a city I visit fairly frequently. They upgraded me to a suite. I had previously stayed at a Ritz Carlton several times in the same city, about a block away. Never gotten upgraded to a suite. Guess which one I’ll book from now on? Service and accommodations were roughly equivalent.
The LA ordinance went into effect before the pandemic; it was driven by the unions and their politcal cronies in areas like LA, SF, and Long Beach. The staffing situation was much different then.
Read between the lines and you’ll find whining by owners and managers that they “can’t” accommodate their guest because labor costs too much. Whenever profits aren’t where they want them to be, the blame labor and regulations, forgetting of course that they pay that labor (much of it performed by undocumented workers – Americans don’t want to clean toilets – at minimum wages no one can live on). Greed is good.
The article should be titled Hotel General Manager Explains why Maximizing Margins is More Important than Brand Standards or Guest Experience.
If this mystery GM truly runs a premium hotel, then hire the amount of staff you need to deliver the experience your guests expect and your affiliated brand standards require when they book your property. Otherwise, maybe look into running a Super 8.
@ Gary – “why individual properties don’t execute on what the chain commits to customers.”
What they shared is applicable to their property only or maybe at best to properties that are under the same parent brand within their ownership/management situation in that city only. Past that, you realistically can’t say chain because each property has its own set of staffing issues and internal politics/LSOPS that dictate why these things do not happen. 99.9% of properties will never deal with unions and/or ordinances which is why this story is such an extreme outlier.
@ Brian – “If this mystery GM truly runs a premium hotel, then hire the amount of staff you need to deliver the experience your guests expect and your affiliated brand standards require when they book your property. Otherwise, maybe look into running a Super 8.”
That’s not how it works.
As a GM, you can only hire what the owner and/or management company allows you to hire in terms of dollars and FTE’s. They and they alone dictate what every hotel on planet earth can spend on labor/controllables and by proxy what services and amenities can be offered. Your paycheck as GM comes from the company you work for which is not the parent company but XYZ franchisee. You spend what they allot or else you won’t have a job.
@ DCS
“I hesitate using “@platy” in my comments because that usually sends them into the moderation queue…”
Interesting, assuming your observation has been reported with due regard for any confounding variables (e.g. the standard excuses of post length and links). Thanks, mate.
Ironically, Gary and other travel bloggers have completely missed the maths underpinning this loyalty lark.
Be well, dude, the revolution is close….;)
What I do for a living is “hunt for patterns”, and this one was easy to detect. The observation is solid and the evidence is right there in my comment
“DCS says:
July 30, 2023 at 6:42 am.”
which consisted of just a couple of short sentences containing no links or anything that should be flagged as spam by any AI-based cyber-filter. The trigger that sent even that innocuous comment into the moderation queue, which I predicted would happen, was the mentioning of the “unmentionable” moniker!
Your only “crime” was to lend a second voice challenging the “big lie”, whose effectiveness depended of my being portrayed as a “Hilton fanboy” and lone and misguided “crusader”. A second reality-based voice needed to be “moderated” (read: delayed as much as possible) because it was a threat to the “big lie”…
Now, the genie is out of the bottle and cannot be put back in, so, yes, the “revolution” is close 😉
The majority of branded hotels these days are owned by one group, usually large real estate trusts or corporations, and managed by a different group. The management group sets the hotel’s budget every year based on the owner’s expectations. Since most hotel ownership groups are publicly traded companies, they are under extreme pressure to maximize profit and shareholder returns.
Also, when using points for upgrades or free nights, the hotels are only reimbursed by the brands at a small fraction of what the hotel can normally sell the room for. This is usually the main reason hotels will restrict using points, especially if they have a lot of redemption reservations on the books.
Wait a minute here, people. Are you trying to tell me that voting Democrat has (really, really bad) consequences? But, but, but I’m still a little bit confused. Democrats always say they have “good intentions” Are you telling me that their ‘good intentions’ actually cause pain and misery to taxpayers and travelers? This is a valuable life lesson. America, take heed.
The hotel manager is misleading you. The labor cost to clean a hotel room ranges between 2 – 4% of the room rate, less on multi day stays.
@ DCS
Thanks, mate.
For the record, I don’t have a problem with moderation of travel blogs, including VFTW although some transparency would be welcome.
I applaud Gary Leff for purging much of the racism, sexism, etc. that used to infest this blog.
It must be quite a task to balance family time with a full time job and run a blog. IMO that Gary Leff achieves healthy hit rates relative to other travel blogs is a testament to his industry.
Gary has also entertained commentary counter to his traditional positions more than some other travel bloggers, which is worthy of note and respect.
I would choose to approach the task differently, but, hey, it’s not my website, it’s Gary’s to champion however he sees fit.
FWIW I’m about done with my research into the inherent weaknesses of the orthodox approach to engaging with loyalty programs and some denialism it engenders. There’s not much more to learn here.
On the positive side, there is a set of interlinked math equations universally relevant to all members of all travel loyalty programs. The revealed pattens have profound implications for anyone with an open mind. AFAIK travel bloggers generally have missed the obvious for all of these years.
The genie lies in more than one magnum opus. The final chapter is all but complete. One can but imagine the histrionics once the magic is finally released from its bottle…..;)
Your only “crime” was to lend a second voice challenging the “big lie”, whose effectiveness depended of my being portrayed as a “Hilton fanboy” and lone and misguided “crusader”. A second reality-based voice needed to be “moderated” (read: delayed as much as possible) because it was a threat to the “big lie”…
Now, the genie is out of the bottle and cannot be put back in, so, yes, the “revolution” is close
@ Jim Worrall
“The hotel manager is misleading you. The labor cost to clean a hotel room ranges between 2 – 4% of the room rate, less on multi day stays”
That sounds plausible – we should also note that the true cost in this case is not the cost to clean the suite, but the additional cost (i.e. cost clean suite minus the cost of cleaning the originally booked room).
Pet peeve: “express requirement” should be
“expressed requirement.”
So, ask you GM reader what the actual extra cost is, and if offered in, say, cash, would that fix it?
Gunna break one rule might as well pick a few more?
R
Can’t fight the value of confirmed suite upgrade, so some of you guys spend your time debating the semantics of what “confirmed/guaranteed” means.
I don’t know who was arguing that it was guaranteed you’d have the ability to apply the suite upgrades, or who was arguing it was a simple and straightforward task, all the time, every time… to me, it all sounds like strawman to try to convince people of your position that Hilton is superior.
The argument has always been that once you book those suites with the SUAs, they are confirmed/guaranteed in advance. Awards that Hilton DOES NOT offer.
For my part, I’ve always been able to use up my SUAs… in the past with a phone call, but recently did one through MHC for the first time.
Meanwhile, of my next 18 bookings, 10 are pre-confirmed in premium suites with the 9K points option, 1 is a standard suite with the 6K points option, 3 more are secured with SUAs, and 4 are in standard rooms.
You may all have your luck at Hilton, but over here in the World of Hyatt, I don’t need to rely on luck.
Meanwhile, the academic talk here on a travel blog comes across like a circle-jerk. I already know DCS isn’t going to stop, but maybe there’s hope for Platy.
Gary: This is just a test to see whether I can use HTML code to display images directly in my comments, rather than linking them. I suspect that the functionality is disabled, but I just want to be sure.
Yup, bummer! The functionality to display images in comments using HTML code is disabled, leaving disqus-powered sites like LoyaltyLobby and TravelCodex, which enable posting of images in comments, to be much more “enlightened.”
No one can possibly have followed this “debate” and think that my goal here to “try to convince people of my position that Hilton is superior”, when every single post that’s been written for at least a decade either here or at OMAAT has claimed the complete opposite, and my position has simply been to share my real-experience which debunks their claims!!!
So, at @JoePro, why are you here? Missing me at OMAAT? Your diatribe will not change the simple fact that there is no loyalty program that “guarantees” suite upgrades as this site and OMAAT claim because they all depend on availability, which is at the discretion of individual properties. Period. There are no “superior” programs. There is only the ability of each individual to make the most of the benefits that their preferred program offers. Does that sound to you like I am claiming “superiority”?
You’ claim to have had a great experience clearing Globalist SUAs, but so have I clearing Hilton Honors global automated upgrades, for which I am perfect over the last year as a LT Diamond, after a “batting average” of better than 80% before that for 12 years as a Diamond. See? You have no point, so please stop regurgitating logically untenable claims that have led to posts like these of the years:
2012 — I am Sick of Arguing for Starwood Upgrades. (travelcodex)
2013 — Platinum SPG, best room upgrade: please change the language. (FlyerTalk)
2014 — Starwood Platinum Suite Upgrades: Why Does It Have To Be A Fight? (OMAAT)
2015 — Destroying Loyalty: Starwood’s Lies & Expectation Management. (gamification)
Even SPG , the program where claims of suite upgrades “entitlement” started, never “guaranteed” suite upgrades. Self-anointed “travel gurus” simply misinterpreted, willfully, the T&Cs to claim suite upgrades “entitlement”. The blog posts listed above are a clear evidence of the rude awakening to reality that no program “guarantees” suite upgrades. You and your ilk should wake up too…
@ JoePro
“some of you guys spend your time debating the semantics of what “confirmed/guaranteed” means.”
No. It comes back to the reality of availability of room type.
“to try to convince people of your position that Hilton is superior.”
No. Just that it should be honestly represented.
My position: (1) consider the evidence (T&Cs and real-world experience); (2) harness the strengths of each loyalty program; (3) calculate the value out for the effort put in.
“The argument has always been that once you book those suites with the SUAs, they are confirmed/guaranteed in advance. Awards that Hilton DOES NOT offer.”
The pervasive argument was that Hyatt offered more in terms of elite tier upgrades.
“For my part, I’ve always been able to use up my SUAs… in the past with a phone call, but recently did one through MHC for the first time.”
That’s great. Good for you. From what I read, Hyatt refers back to the individual hotel, where availability is determined locally both for SUAs and top tier upgrades.
“You may all have your luck at Hilton, but over here in the World of Hyatt, I don’t need to rely on luck.”
Now you cite 11/18 cases of points-paid upgrades (6k/9k) with Hyatt.
I hope you did your maths on those. I just found examples at Hyatt Regency in Lisbon of such “suite points upgrade” in which those Hyatt points have NEGATIVE VALUE. Yay, what?!
On one night – the member rate (with equivalent 72 hr cancellation) is EUR511. The upgrade rate is EUR537 plus 6k Hyatt points. You’d pay an extra EUR26 to use up 6k points: redemption value -0.43 US Cents per point.
On another night – room cost EUR398 versus EUR418 plus 6k Hyatt points. You’ pay an extra EUR20 to use up your 6k Hyatt points: redemption value -0.33 US Cents per point.
“Meanwhile, the academic talk here on a travel blog comes across like a circle-jerk.”
The “academic” talk is a plea to all to get the facts right and do the math: the negative value of Hyatt points in the examples above should provide compelling evidence to any reasonable person of the merit of such an approach.
“I already know DCS isn’t going to stop, but maybe there’s hope for Platy.”
Oh thanks, big hugs, bro. Maybe there’s some hope that you’ll stop shooting the messenger…;)
I guess as a curious traveler I’m grateful to get an honest answer at the very least.
@ DCS
Grab the popcorn – I’m finding negative redemption values for Hyatt points in some cases of point paid upgrades compared with fully cash members rates with 72-hour cancellation terms.
“Missing me at OMAAT?”… you probably really think that. But no, happened across this page elsewhere and regrettably didn’t stop before reaching these ridiculous comments.
Again, you’re arguing semantics that nobody is interested in. I don’t recall ever trying to argue the semantics about your ludacruous claims that Hilton Offers “Unlimited Complimentary Upgrades”, a claim that was no more or less true than with Hyatt.
The guarantee with Hyatt has always been that you can confirm a suite upgrade in advance with the SUA’s…. nobody has ever claimed that such a guarantee applies to every hotel for any day. The “based on availability” is inherent, just as the exclusions spelled out in T&C are inherent.
Why do you need to repeatedly call out the inherent limitations of what these guarantees are if not to try to discredit their value? It’s like saying “well, there’s not really a money back guarantee, because you might die before you can get your money back.” Nobody cares.
___________________
“There are no “superior” programs. There is only the ability of each individual to make the most of the benefits that their preferred program offers. Does that sound to you like I am claiming “superiority”?”
No,THAT does not sound like claiming superiority. Rather, it’s the last 7+ years you’ve spent making these same arguments about what “guarantee” and “confirmed” mean… and arguments about the minutia of wording in T&Cs to try to prop up Hilton and disparage Hyatt… THAT’s what makes it sound like you’re trying to claim superiority. And now you’re flat out claiming Gary is a liar that SUA’s can’t be applied online? A “fabrication”— you called it. After sending an e-mail to my conceirge to apply an SUA, I got the following response “I am happy to confirm the one bedroom corner suite for your reservation at the Park Hyatt Toronto in Canada”. So yeah, no, not a fabrication.
Last, you’re actually wasting your time trying to claim you’re not a Hilton fanboy? Wow. Yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and not buy that. You’ve emphasized your importance as someone with LT Diamond status too hard and too frequently to ever be convinced of that.
@ JoePro
FWIW in the years I’ve followed this and certain other sites, including OMAAT, I’ve never read anything that @ DCS has written that has been ill advised. Maybe hard to understand at times, but never misdirected.
I’ve certainly seen plenty of commentators completely misunderstand what he has written.
I’ve seen too many commentators making personal attacks rather than mount ANY evidence to counter the content (including your own herein and IIRC your posts on OMAAT).
I’ve seen too many commentators blindly accept blatantly incorrect information fed to them by certain travel bloggers, including Gary Leff’s recent article claiming 44% Hilton brands refuse upgrades, which we have demolished if you read the comments with a clear and unbiased mind 0 you might even notice Gary Leff incorrectly calling me a liar.
Now I suggest you read my post (yet again stuck formal many hours in moderation), wherein I provide you with the evidence that you can end up with negative redemption value with Hyatt points in the course of booking your precious Hyatt suites.
There you go – congratulations those suite upgrade was available BUT you PAID MORE in both cash and points, than you would have done using just cash.
Of course no blogger I’ve ever come across does the maths.
We’re not arguing semantics but a systemic failure in the way bloggers and evidently many if not most or all of their readers approach this loyalty lark.
For the record the exclusions claimed in the T@Cs are not necessarily verbatim – see the posts in the article on 44% Hilton brands refuse upgrades.
“And now you’re flat out claiming Gary is a liar that SUA’s can’t be applied online?”
Eh? If I read his post correctly, Gary used the human intervention of a concierge, who used the human intervention of a rep at the hotel, so no, I don’t think most people would regard that as a valid interpretation of an online facility.
Come back to us when you’ve checked those 11 points plus pay suite upgrades bookings you cite and reassure the Hyatt fan club out there that you weren’t inadvertently ripped off.
If Hilton did that – this blog would light up like a fcking Christmas tree.
@JoePro — You really can’t be that dense. With that a statement, you flipped everything on its head. What do you think the whole ongoing debate is about?!!! It’s about this site and OMAAT and others travel blogs parsing the T&Cs of various programs and then willfully (mis)interpenetrating them to claim, for a least a decade now, that their preferred programs “guarantee” suite upgrades while Hilton Honors does not, which total nonsense.
Here’s what’s claimed in this very post:
And here is what OMAAT, undoubtedly feeling left out of the vigorous activities here, wrote yesterday:
What is their factual basis for making those claims? None. Take OMAAT’s nonsense, for example, that
“However, upgrades are offered at the hotel’s discretion, meaning that a hotel doesn’t have to make a suite available for an upgrade, even if it’s empty”.
Here’s the reality: upgrades in every program are offered at individual hotel’s discretion, which means that in every program “a hotel doesn’t have to make a suite available for an upgrade, even if it’s empty”. No one knows that better the OMAAT host, who has reported challenging front desk agents of his preferred program with evidence showing that suites were available for booking online while he was being told that none were available for upgrades. Check it out yourself:
2014 — Starwood Platinum Suite Upgrades: Why Does It Have To Be A Fight? (OMAAT)
While at it, check out the other posts I listed earlier. They all call it “hotels playing games with availability”, but the reality is that the T&C of every program allow hotels to “play games with availability”!!!
Bottom line:
They argue semantics while I provide factual evidence that has again and again demonstrated why their semantics game holds no water!!! It’s what my “alter ego” and I have been urging everyone to do: rather than getting hung up on semantics, report real-life experiences !
Unless you understand the preceding, you and have nothing to talk about because pretty much everything in your post is based on wrong premises. I have never claimed not to be a Hilton “fanboy”, but being a “Hilton fanboy” is NOT the basis of my arguments, which you and everyone else, but my “alter ego”, believe they are. You get offended that “I emphasize my importance as someone with LT Diamond status too hard”, but ignore the deluge of blog posts about how WoH Globalist is the most valuable top-tier elite status, while HH Diamond is no different than HH Gold. See? with your blinders firmly on, you fault me because I apply Newton’s Third Law to counter the plethora of bogus claims:
In simple English: I push back, and you fault me for it.
platy — Welcome and great posts!
Wonderful illustration of how everyone hops on the bandwagon of how great WoH is, but never does the math to assess whether the cost-to-benefit ratio justifies the “euphoria”!
Cheers, mate!
DCS says: “but never does the math”— another self-gratifying claim with no basis.
Platy says: “I hope you did your maths on those. I just found examples at Hyatt Regency in Lisbon of such “suite points upgrade” in which those Hyatt points have NEGATIVE VALUE. Yay, what?!”
Please, I ALWAYS do the math.
The peak for me was a few years back at the Park Hyatt Beijing, where I paid $250/nt for a standard room. 9,000 points/nt locked me into a 2-Story penthouse suite running $2500/nt. Contrary to a negative redemption value, that’s a rate of 25cpp. You ever get half that, or even a quarter of that over at Honors? Heck, I’d be impressed with an 8th of that.
To be fair, that was right when they introduced that option. Did the same with some other Asian properties for spectacular value, but more recently I have experiences like the following:
PH Auckland– Harbour Suite. Rate difference $900
PH Canberra- Diplomatic Suite. Rate difference $755
HR Embarcadero- Presidential Suite. Rate difference $700
Among many other upcoming bookings, at the lower end, I’ll get around 3cpp, and probably average about 5cpp.
@ JoePro
“Please, I ALWAYS do the math.”
Most excellent. Well done.
Using some of the properties you cite, I can find examples of near useless redemption value for suite upgrades using points plus cash (6k Hyatt points offsetting USD8 at HR SF) and very tidy redemption value (6k offsetting NZD800 at PH Auckland) to add to the examples of negative redemption rates cited in my earlier post.
I can also find many dates wherein such bookings could not be made at all – back to the availability issue.
“You ever get half that, or even a quarter of that over at Honors? Heck, I’d be impressed with an 8th of that.”
Firstly, I wouldn’t typically be spending USD700-USD1000 on a hotel night to be able to access the points plus cash upgrade opportunities you cite at high end Hyatt properties (PHs etc): the opportunity cost is too high. Perhaps for a very special occasion since I have some orphan Hyatt points to use up.
Thus, in Auckland, I’ve stayed at the Hilton for about USD250 per night and been upgraded on the back of my elite status to waterfront suites worth several times that, no points required. At a USD500 per night I’d rather save the cash. Given my Hilton Diamond only required one night to secure I’ll take the upgrade as a nice to have – I’m not overly invested over dozens of nights / 10,000s bucks credit card spend for status accrual per Hyatt Globalist.
Secondly, I’ve certainly redeemed Hilton points at their high properties for very tidy redemption rates that would be similar to your own experiences at Hyatt, given that the two points “currencies’ are set entirely differently when you only consider the net return.
In short, you have to factor in the earn rate as well as the redemption rate. Hyatt points are only worth three times (or whatever Gary or others claim) Hilton points when you have earned them at the same rate. Hint – on the average Hyatt isn’t somehow giving up three times more value to its members! Typically, averaging ti all out, your earn rate will offset the redemption rate giving. broadly similar net returns (opportunities for outsize value in any loyalty program notwithstanding).
And ultimately that is what we mean by “doing the math”, not just looking for the better redemption rates within a given program, but also factoring in the earn rate in any strategic choices in this loyalty lark.
@ Gary Leff
Trying to enter discussions herein when it takes up to a day or more to get posts through moderation and some “go missing” and that my posts are apparently sent automatically to moderation based upon my “name” rather than other obvious reasons length of post, links, etc, may I respectfully propose that you either fix the issue or un-invite me from your blog. I’ll graciously respect either choice.
@platy – it does not take “up to a day or more” for me to clear the moderation queue, in this case it took 43 minutes, but from Oz you often post while I am asleep.
LOL. Above, I wrote: “pretty much everything in your post is based on wrong premises.” Add your comment I just quoted to the list, and then understand this: you follow me around, objecting to my every comment, but it’s clear that the person you think you are after is just a figment of your imagination, a straw man you created. You don’t know jack about me, JoePro. Really
Goodbye “DeeCeeEss” or fake ‘DCS’.
They are, because there was no reason for my very short comment “DCS says:
August 1, 2023 at 5:03 am” that was sent into the moderation queue be to sent there other than it contained “The Name”.
Delaying a reader’s comment by 45minutes essentially prevents them from participating in discussions. People who have been posting here for a long time are known quantities and should not have their every comment sent into moderation other than for use offending words, links, and other common criteria. Comment length can be one of the criteria but should be relaxed for known commenters…
Correct, but in practice you do not earn HH and WoH points at the same rate, therefore, in general comparing points values across programs is meaningless without adjusting for differences in base earn rates.
For a $1 Hyatt stay paid for with the Chase WoH visa (4x), a WoH Globalist earns 10.5 WoH points
For a $1 Hilton stay paid for with the AMEX HH Surpass (12x), a HH Diamond earns 32 HH points
Because $1 = 1$
32 HH points/$ = 10.5 WoH points/$
Dividing both sides by 10.5, we get
3 HH points/$ = 1 WoH point/$
Now, dividing both side by 1 WoH point/$, we get
(3 HH points/$)/(1 WoH point/$) = 1 [ the number ONE]
See that?
(3 HH points/$)/(1 WoH point/$) is not = 3 but = 1 !!!
Because
(3 HH points/$)/(1 WoH point/$) = 1
It is known as a unit factor or conversion ratio.
(100cents/$1) = 1 is also a unit factor or conversion ratio.
Any number multiplied by 1 does not change its value, even though it may change the “unit of measurement.”
So, to convert $50 to cents, we do this:
$50 * (100cents/$1) = 5000 cents.
We did not change the value of $50, because $50 = 5000centts, but we changed the “unit of measurement” from $ to cents by multiplying $50 by 1 or (100cents/$1), the unit factor or conversion ratio. $50 and 5000 cents are “worth” exactly the same.
So, if you value a WoH point at 1.5cents each, how much is that “worth” in terms of HH points?
We just need to use the unit factor or conversion ratio above (inverted):
1.5cents/WoH point * (1 WoH point/$)/(3 HH points/$) = 0.5 cent/HH point.
We went from 1.5cents/WoH point to 0.5cent/HH point, i.e., we changed the “unit of measurement” from cents/WoH to cents/HH without changing the “value” cents/WoH, since all we did was to multiply 1,5cents/WoH by 1, the unit factor.
Bottom line:
1,5cents/WoH are “worth” exactly the same as 0.5cent/HH
It is legit math and it even has a name: dimensional analysis
My redemption value at W Maldives this January was 3.9cents/HH points. In terms of WoH points that is equivalent to getting:
3.9cents/HH * (3HH Points/$)/(1 WoH point/$) = 11.7 cents/WoH point = ~12cpp
“Another self-gratifying claim with no basis”, ey, JoePro? Right…
@ DCS
“Delaying a reader’s comment by 45minutes essentially prevents them from participating in discussions.”
IME 45 minute is not typical or representative of the moderation delay, indeed that statement infers misinformation. Please PM me on FlyerTalk for a heads up on the revolution. You alone herein will appreciate the math.
@ Gary Leff
” it does not take “up to a day or more” for me to clear the moderation queue, in this case it took 43 minutes, but from Oz you often post while I am asleep.”
Whilst I applaud your industry and effort, the misdirection and misinformation are troubling. I wish you well.
Unfortunately, I have not posted at FT since around 2011 and I do not even have an account there. I tried commenting there and quickly knew that it was not my kind of forum for one obvious reason: my views challenged established travel blogosphere dogma and rubbed too many people that did not understand my reasoning or math the wrong way (viz., what I have encountered here and at OMAAT, but on steroids.) Let me know in these forums when the ‘revolution’ arrives.
I have voluminous PowerPoint files that I have maintained for many years in which I have thoroughly modeled various aspects of hotel loyalty points currencies, with figures, charts, tables and equations, which I put out from time to time (as above), and I am planning to put out in the promised opus magnum when time permits, to demystify, once and for all, concepts about hotel points currencies that have eluded and continue to elude folks who write about them all the time and should know better.
Cheers. mate!
@Platy: “In short, you have to factor in the earn rate as well as the redemption rate. Hyatt points are only worth three times (or whatever Gary or others claim) Hilton points when you have earned them at the same rate” —indeed, and fair enough. I got caught up in that I’d be impressed with a 3CPP redemption at Hilton, so mistakenly asserted that 1/8th of a 25cpp redemption would be impressive. The actual equivalent would be 8cpp, so an 1/8th of that would be 1cpp, something quite attainable in the Hilton realm. Whereas 8cpp is not. (Personally I’ve capped at around 1.25cpp for a 5 night stay at W.A Maldives, when factoring 5th night free, so I’d guess that’d be 3.75 Hyatt CPP equivalent).
It’s apparent that we’re after different things in our travels, and indeed Hilton may work better for you than Hyatt.