With all of the problems that Marriott has had launching their new program and integrating 3 loyalty programs into one, many customers are frustrated. Starwood members in particular have been disappointed by the customer service standard over the phone with Marriott, and with the way many Marriott properties are implementing the benefits that have been promised. In short, Marriott has failed to deliver.
Yesterday I wrote that legacy Marriott (and Starwood customers) who are announcing their departure for Hilton are making a mistake. The grass isn’t greener. Hilton Honors isn’t a better program. I argued it would be nuts to leave.
Both Lucky at One Mile at a Time and Nick Reyes at Frequent Miler disagreed vigorously. Except they didn’t. They agreed with me, or at least didn’t disagree, only they don’t seem to realize it.
W Union Square
Let me start by saying I never claimed there aren’t nice Hilton hotels, and I didn’t say there aren’t some members who do well with Hilton. I specifically observed that Hilton offers more to its Gold guests. They have a better breakfast benefit. And it’s accessible just with a credit card.
It’s the 50-plus night guests that are most frustrated with Marriott, not having their benefits delivered, and the lifetime elites frustrated with accounts that didn’t merge correctly.
For the average guests – sure – they aren’t getting suites anyway, just be happy with credit card-earned breakfast at Hilton. I had no issue with that. The question is – for an elite guest choosing where to put their 50-100 nights throughout the year:
- Which program gives you back more for your loyalty (rewards)?
- Which program treats them better while they’re a guest?
Club lounge at the W Doha
I hope Hilton gets its act together and improves like they’ve had rumblings of doing for years. But until then the answer is pretty clearly Marriott. Hilton doesn’t guarantee late checkout and it’s totally up to a hotel whether to provide suite upgrades or not. Hilton doesn’t have nearly as many nice places to spend points, either, although they certainly have some.
Lucky’s Arguments
Right off the bat Lucky does not claim Hilton Honors is better than Marriott Rewards, which means he isn’t actually disagreeing with the core of my post. In fact he says he continues to choose to stay 100 nights with Marriott (“for now”). His revealed belief is precisely that Marriott will treat him better than Hilton, for all of Marriott’s flaws.
Here are his arguments:
- The Marriott-Starwood merger has been frustrating. Absolutely. They’ve made a complete hash of it. That’s why we’re having this discussion at all, and in some sense Marriott doesn’t deserve your business especially as arrogant as their CEO has been. But the question is which program will be most rewarding now that we take Marriott down a peg compared to where they should have been?
- Hilton gives out top tier status with a credit card and that’s great for people who aren’t deciding where to put 50-100 hotel nights, it’s easy status. Of course Hilton Diamond doesn’t promise late checkout or suites so top tier status only has limited value (though some properties will treat you very well especially in Asia).
Indeed after staying 60 nights with Hilton you’d get awarded with something they give out to anyone who gets their premium co-brand American Express card. They aren’t giving something as valuable as Marriott offers for a similar level of loyalty.
- Hilton rewards as well as Marriott when you factor in promotions. I made this same point. Marriott’s basic program is more rewarding for your spending. When you add in double points and assume no value from Marriott promotions Hilton catches up. But Marriott promotions, while disappointing, do have some value which is why the math shows that Marriott is more rewarding overall even factoring promotions.
- Hilton has some nice Conrad and Waldorf properties and after Marriott increases the price of their best properties next year those properties will be more expensive to redeem for than Hilton’s best properties. He concedes Marriott has far more truly special places than Hilton does and Hilton really doesn’t have any that compare to the true best of Marriott’s portfolio.
St. Regis Bali
Ultimately he concludes, “I’m a top tier elite with virtually no effort, I’m getting breakfast at all brands, I get suite upgrades regularly at non-US properties, and there are quite a few properties I want to try.”
In other words Hilton Diamond with a credit card drives good value for guests who aren’t staying 50-100 nights per year. And he concedes “if I spent 60+ nights per year with Hilton I’d want some sort of confirmed suite upgrades, guaranteed late check-out, etc” which is exactly my point which is why I say he and I do not actually disagree.
Nick’s Arguments
Nick lays out why he has been happy with Hilton, and the role that Hilton can play for certain guests who weren’t the target of my post.
Here are his arguments:
- He’s had good customer service at several Hilton hotels. There’s no real comparison here suggesting that Hilton offers better service than Marriott overall, or that the Hilton Honors program offers better service. I find both loyalty programs to be frustrating on the service side when something goes wrong. I don’t dispute that the Conrads especially he cite treated him very well.
- Great breakfast for Golds with a credit card (“I can tell you about the amazing breakfast I enjoyed for a couple of mornings at the Conrad Tokyo as a Hilton Gold member — courtesy of a $95 credit card)” Yes, absolutely, but it doesn’t at all refute my point about whether or not 50-100 night elites should abandon Marriott for Hilton.
- Fees on award stays Nick doesn’t really develop the point (“Hilton didn’t try to add on an “urban destination fee” to my free night stay”) but this is a real advantage of Hilton Honors — supposedly (this isn’t always true) redemptions include all taxes and fees (like urban destination fees), while that’s not the case with Marriott.
- Hilton credit cards are more rewarding there’s no question that the Starwood American Express used to be valuable for ongoing spend and no longer is. That’s beside the point though. The only scenario where a Hilton co-brand credit card is worth using is to earn 14 points per dollar on actual Hilton spend. Even there you’re getting a 5.6% rebate, about what you get with a Sapphire Reserve Card. You shouldn’t compare points-earning at Hilton with a Hilton credit card to points-earning at a Marriott with a Marriott credit card unless you actually want to use a Marriott credit card at Marriott which you really shouldn’t.
There’s no question that a credit card elite can get more value from Hilton than from Marriott. That point, though, doesn’t undermine my own claims about which program will be more rewarding for the 50-100 night elite that’s unhappy with the way Marriott is delivering breakfast benefits.
St Regis Bangkok
Disagreements in the Comments
A common reader point was that Hilton credit card offers better return. As I noted above it’s not a better return than other cards you can get (like Sapphire Reserve) that also provide similar return with Marriott.
Here’s one version of the claim,
[T]he big thing that Gary missed is that Hilton offers much better return on credit card spend. The worst thing about the merger was the devaluation of the SPG cards. I rarely spend money on hotels, so Hilton is now a much better program for me than Marriott.
philco basically explained why Hilton makes sense for someone that isn’t a super-frequent guest and who isn’t going to get suite upgrades with Marriott anyway,
I agree for folks doing a lot of travel (road warrior types) your argument is pretty sound. But for somebody like me who does maybe 20-30 nights a year in hotel (often in locations without the major US chains) and who earns most hotel points and status on credit card spend then Marriott is much worse for me than Hilton. Marriott doesn’t reward somebody like me at all but Hilton does.
Similarly JFKPHL explains the value of Hilton for the 20-30 night a year guest,
If you don’t live in hotels, but do spend 20 to 30 nights a year at them on your own dime, Hilton is so much better than Marriott and Hyatt, there is no comparison. Credit card spend is much better rewarded by the Hilton cards than Marriott now. Hyatt’s footprint is too small. It is far easier to get free breakfast at Hilton. Marriott’s award chart is about to devalue. Marriott’s IT is a train wreck.
There are other arguments for sure, like that Hilton points are worth more than the $0.004 apiece I give them credit for, that Hiltons (and all hotels, really) treat members well in Asia, that suites don’t much matter. But this is the core of it, and I think it’s true, Hilton is a good program for someone that won’t stay enough for Marriott’s elite benefits to matter — for those members, such benefits aren’t a differentiator.
But for the 50-100 night a year guest, the ones unhappy with how Marriott is delivering on benefits promises or frustrated their lifetime years of status are reflected incorrectly in their account, Marriott remains a better program… which brings us back to the reason they aren’t better, which is that for the guests they’re trying to compete for they don’t need to be.
Al Maha Desert Resort
I’m Mad at Marriott Isn’t a Good Reason to Leave
Just like “I have good experiences with Hilton” doesn’t mean that Hilton is better than Marriott, being mad at Marriott for how they’re bungling the program integration doesn’t mean that Hilton is better — and the question here is which program is better for the Marriott Platinum elite that’s frustrated by what they’ve seen over the last several months.
For the most part it’s the legacy Starwood Platinum elite that we’re talking about here, since of course legacy Marriott elites are used to long telephone hold times, incorrect information from customer service reps, and not having meaningful elite benefits. The new program is at least an improvement along certain margins of elite recognition for them.
So should 50-100 night legacy Starwood elites unhappy with the Marriott program go to Hilton? The ability to earn Hilton status that doesn’t promise suites or late check-out (though some hotels may deliver it) by signing up for a credit card doesn’t really answer that question — though it is a very important point for other guests.
Goodness knows I’ll stay at Hiltons occasionally and appreciate my Hilton Gold status that I get with a credit card because I want to avoid being assigned the room over the HVAC and appreciate lounge access or breakfast versus not having those things.
I read Lucky’s article and he started off with that he has been frustrated with Marriott. I was like “Yeah, but Gary said just because you’re upset doesn’t make Hilton better”.
This is a very well-reasoned argument. Your previous post easn’t as clear that you were only speaking about 50+night road warriors.
And that’s why Nick and Ben argued with you — because it appeared that you were called people like me (25 nights per year) “nuts” for dumping Marriott for Hilton.
Your headline was not about 50+night elites. Your headline was “To Everyone Leaving Marriott for Hilton: You’re Nuts.”
If you didn’t mean it, then you shouldn’t have written it.
In fact, as you make very clear in this post, it absolutely makes sense for me to focus on Hilton instead of Marriott.
SPG used to be a fantastic program for guys like me. It was my favorite program, and I even did some mattress running in Mexico to be Platinum this year. The new Marriott/SPG isn’t nearly as rewarding, and I definitely won’t be doing it again.
How nice. As a prelude to Aunt Edna and Uncle Joe arguing during Christmas dinner I get to hear Lucky, Nick and Gary squabble over hotel programs.
@brteacher Lucky quite clearly understood I was talking about top tier Marriott elites (like him), he acknowledges my key points “Top tier elites aren’t entitled to empty suites / They don’t even guarantee late check-out” and suggests he is going to keep sticking with his 100 nights at Marriott. I apologize if my original post wasn’t clear to everyone — I also think for a legacy SPG person they are trading very good recognition at a small number of properties for less good recognition at a larger number of properties, along with better earn-burn proposition for their hotel spending (and, separately, a credit card that no longer makes sense to spend on).
Everyone has their own calculas to make about which program makes more sense. Interestingly, I haven’t heard from Gary, Nick or Ben the perhaps most obvious argument. Screw status chasing and just become a free agent and pick hotels based on convenience, amenities, reviews and cost (you know the old fashion way before status was around…I’m only in my 30s so I’ve only heard stories about this mythical pre-historic time of the ‘70s and before).
Maybe get Hilton status with a credit card so you get free breakfast, etc when staying at Hilton’s (why not) and maybe do the same with IHG and if/when status matches/challenges come along. Maybe do big bonus promos when they come along for Marriott/Hyatt/Hilton but otherwise just live as a free person. It might be exilherating and worth it to break the shackles. There are some really great boutique hotels, Airbnbs, etc that we are all missing by using our tunnel vision status chasing.
I’ve been Hyatt Diamond/Globalist for 7 years and SPG Plat for 7 years. A few months ago I hit my 55 nights for Hyatt but decided to ditch Marriott because the value isn’t there, the award chart is getting more expensive and the customer service is a nightmare.
Who is with me on this?
By the way @brteacher I’m glad the argument is clearer here. From my perspective the point isn’t to “win” an argument but to improve it, sharpen it, make it more persuasive — and possibly be persuaded in the process. So if I’ve done better with this second version, after having been challenged by other bloggers, that’s exactly what I would hope for!
Yes. Rwow! Cat fight!
Gary- you’re wrong. Get over it.
Also: I am a Hilton Diamond. 70+ nights this year. I could not care less about suite upgrades. Irrelevant. I do care about easy earn and burn and reasonable prices. Both of which Hilton gives me.
Why are you so dismissive of credit card spending away from hotels? Getting 6x HH at grocery stores (and restaurants) is much more rewarding than the MR/SPG/Ritz cards.
Gary; it’s christmas. Do you not have better things to do than try to prove your argument? Just copy and paste a previous post from a few months ago and enjoy your day with your family
I think you are right to point out that Lucky’s actions show that he knows completely leaving Marriott is not in his best interest given the choices. That being said, he made the point that he no longer saw a benefit to going above and beyond in staying loyal. Before he stayed 100 nights with Starwood because he liked the program so much and found it worthwhile to go out of his way to be loyal whereas now those excess nights might be better spent at Hilton. That point you have not addressed, nor did you address Nick’s point about marriotts complicated breakfast benefit which for some is just too confusing to waste time on when they know what they are getting with Hilton. Lastly, regarding Hilton promotions and which program is more rewarding for stays from the perspective of points, you rightly argued that the Hilton promos were the only way they could compete, an argument which implied that points earned from Hilton stays qualifying for promos would only at best equal the value of points earned from stays with Marriott that didn’t qualify for promos, so if Marriott ran a promotion it would be more rewarding by default. They argued that the promos Hilton runs are constant, so you pretty much have to factor their 2x promo into your standard earnings calculation. Additionally, they argued that sometimes the promos go above and beyond 2x. I think you have dismissed this but their point remains valid. I think points earning ( return on spend/reward for spend) is similar in both programs. That being said, you are completely right about the flaws in their credit card argument. You can earn a great return on CSR or other cards that aren’t cobranded, so their argument isn’t a reason to shift the majority of nights to Hilton because of the CC.
@fathisss! Crap you beat me to it!
@nun – don’t compare it to Marriott cards. 6x Honors = ~ 2.4% rebate, which is low compared to numerous other cards on the market
@Bob – it helps to offer a reason why you think someone is wrong. If you don’t care about benefits like suites or late checkout, and are happy with Hilton’s portfolio of hotels, then earn and burn proposition between the two isn’t far off.
Marriott will write down the a significant portion of the goodwill paid to acquire Starwood.
Starwood guests generally spent more than Marriott guests as they were better properties. Downgradibg the benefits to high frequency SPG guests will cause them to search elsewhere- for every 50 nights a guest goes elsewhere- say to get Hyatt status- Marriott loses $10,000 of booking revenue. Every 1,000 is $10,000,000.
Between Diamond status via a cc and generally better benefits at Hyatt – it will not take much at the margin to transform loyal former SPG elites to become Hyatt/Hilton/Marriott free agents.
SPG worked because it created fanatically loyal guests going out of their way to stay at thier properties. Few will feel that way for Marriott, though they are all over the place and thier bet is people won’t go out of their way for other chains. I think they will be wrong.
This whole post is incredibly petty. You made an argument for one side. Others argued another side that should have been the end. This just reads like a childish tit for tat.
@Mark @prchef – I think I’m with you. I’m not a 100 night Marriott guest because my work pays for me to do that. I’m doing it out of recreational spend and effort.
It may actually make more sense to spend fewer nights with more aspirational properties and obtain what I want with FHR, Visa and Virtuoso than to spend dozens of unnecessary nights in some goforsaken property like Marriott Fremont or Sheraton Bellevue to hit the required nights at most efficient spend.
I’m in my late 30s, and I’m starting to care more about the quality of breakfast I get for “free”, not to mention the horrible state of bedding and pillows in most full service US properties.
Happy holidays all!
Leaving Marriott is not a binary decision where one must choose Hilton instead. Both programs suck in their own special ways. There are other better options to obtain upgrades and perks at luxury properties than big chain loyalty programs. There are better ways to bank points/travel currency from credit cards/program partners than for Marriott Rewards or Hilton Honors. Being mad at Marriott IS a good enough reason to leave when Marriott fails on trustworthiness, providing great service, and valuing their guests.
Just enjoyed 5 nights at St Regis Aspen – amazing free breakfast every day. Something I never got as SPG Gold but can get as Marriott Plat which is far easier for me to achieve. So the merger was great for me.
Oops- no Hilton properties in Aspen. Useless to me. Ditto for Kanapaali beach and many other places I visit.
Gary’s best argument – not mentioned here – is that HH points are the skypesos of hotel points. That became true after the great deval and remains true today.
I have a friend who loves HH because he stays for work in podunk towns where HGI & Hampton are the only options. Works for him. But I generally stay in big city hotels and I don’t cash in my points for free rooms at Hamptons (except the Truckee location, which again is massively inferior to the Ritz Northstar).
@ Gary — Of course Ben will be treated better by Marriott. He and his husband market for them. Duh.
Gary; it’s christmas. Do you not have better things to do than try to prove your argument?
NO …. NOT everybody believes in Christmas or Religious stuff! Jews, Hindis, Orthodox guys . . .
BUT, Marriott is going the wrong way and sure enough: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
Let Marriott learn the hard way and Gary too!
It’s tough to see, …. that a person is SOOOOO damn strong standing behind something that he does NOT have control about!
Take it as it is and done with it.
If not pleased or completely missatisfied, leave!
In REAL life, you US Americans are the best example: Get married, and if you find something better in the Gym (or SPA i should say) get divorced.
Done so easy, but with a fucking Rewards program that should be 1/2 (if at all) as important as a marriage, you make it a WORLD act?!
It all starts with a lie, didn’t you swear once “until you die” …. but get divorced like it’s the exchange of creditcard points . . ., so choose the program you think you have fun with andbonce the fun stops or the “Sex” is not good anymore, dump it!
No papers to sign, no commitment!
Simple as that!
@Gary – just like the new Marriott program , all the bogs fail to address the low night but high spend guest . Spend just 40 nights but $20,000 and there is simply no comparison- Marriott gives you worthless Gold while Hyatt and Hilton (and I think IHG Ambassador and Accor ) give you top tier . This may be a small segment of the traveling public but it is a group that properties covet – the folks who buy suites or upgraded accommodations.
Travelers of this profile may not care about suite upgrades or free breakfast but do want access to the highest level of customer service , enhanced guaranteed room availability , special reward availability , and priority for later checkouts .it baffles me how Marriott totally ignored this type of traveler and relegated her/him to Gold . I wish one of the blogs would take a look and dive into an analysis where low night and high spend guests are most rewarded for loyalty ( pretty please ? 🙂 ) .Happy Holidays to all !!!!
So I think that the 20-30 night warrior is still probably well served by Marriott. And it’s why we aren’t in a rush to switch even though we will drift between 50+ and >when that makes sense<> that the 5th night is free<>when you leave your chain of choice<< as elite benefits seem to be going away later in 2019. People also weirdly love the AMEX FHR program for free nights, though I've yet to see a room price where I find the offer even marginally compelling so I dunno.
Anyway, none of you are crazy. Life has many tradeoffs. Get the Aspire if you're going Hilton. It really seems like a great deal for Hilton-goers. Get a card if you do Marriott and book a meeting 1x a year if you need it for Platinum. Use cash back cards or CSRs or Prestiges or AMEX Golds to get your air miles to get there and be strategic on redemptions to get some "outsized values".
And enjoy the hobby and your Christmas. And your Kwanzaa. And your New Year. And your 2019. Enjoy your families. Your friends. Your work. Your retirement.
Best to you all. (And thanks Gary for consistently being thought provoking!)
Why do you still ignore that most road warriors have to stay at chains, that their companies have agreements with? My company mostly dropped Marriott/SPG properties. There were numerous reasons why, but it was mostly cost. Many companies also negotiate benefits to be always included in their employee stays. All of our company rates include breakfast. Room assigned has to a “quiet” location, with light blocking drapes, etc. We have corp. rates at every chain, but the non-preferred are only used, by necessity. Suite upgrades, perhaps for personal stays, but really isn’t part of the picture. And furthermore, many times, employees are told this is where you will be staying. I think Boarding Area bloggers confuse what they want, with the realities of what their readers need and are receiving.
It stands to reason that many companies are doing the same thing with Marriott. Marriott’s issues with this merger came at the wrong time. Summer is when companies are working on their next year’s travel contracts. Marriott Rewards, in my opinion, has always been the tightest with benefits. That hasn’t changed. If you were SPG Platinum before, yeah, it might make sense to continue using that status, but maintaining it? Marriott will find out in a year that they really screwed this merger up. By then it will take a much more liberal program, to get guests to stay more. I haven’t even touched Marriott’s credit cards, because again, they screwed that up by limiting how many cards one can have. Marriott is off my radar, I don’t even consider their properties.
@Gary —>. I agree with @brteacher in that your argument is clearer now, in that you’re speaking specifically of the 50+ night customer, and I have little else to say on the matter other than to say that I’ve also received good care (as a Gold) in Europe. Now that I’m Diamond, I’ll see what happens on my next trip.
Wow Gary you really took it personally didn’t ya?
Let me tell a few things:
Marriott= ridiculous cluster and you cannot trust any customer service agent. Like… at all. I had 5 different answers from 5 agents on canceling travel packages that was already handled so badly. Hours and hours of calls prior to that.
Mistakes, misinformation and no training abound, and terrible IT. Lies, no breakfast under 50 nights ever. Terrible or no promos. What on earth are talking about?? Nitpicking between the lines, like some sort of weird lawyer? Don’t get it.
Poor synergy between myriad of brands and they’re hopelessly overwhelmed with the merger.
It’s pathetic. Just saying, bro!
LOL as for the argument about 40 night / $20K spend people…if you are spending $500/night, you aren’t concentrating on Hilton or Hyatt
@Gary “. The only scenario where a Hilton co-brand credit card is worth using is to earn 14 points per dollar on actual Hilton spend. ”
No. AMEX Hilton Ascend offers 6x on groceries, gas and restaurants. That is 3.6c/$. How do you beat that?
My two cents? From my experience as top tier with both, benefit delivery is about even except where it isn’t (all of the known items that proponents of either side bring up). The suites and big ticket benefits simply are not consistently delivered enough by either side to factor significantly into my calculus. If one chain was showering me with riches, maybe, but that is not the case for me.
The path of least resistance for me is to go 100% Marriott. All my coworkers are legacy SPG fanatics and the footprint is, of course, massive.
The rub, and why I keep putting nights with Hilton, especially high cost, big city properties? You just earn so ridiculously many points. Period. In a week of biz travel at a big city Hilton I pull down 50k points, easy. Marriott? Maybe 20k. And the redemption rates, while slightly higher at Hilton, do not average over 2x for comparable properties.
The value prop with Hilton is basically I can get one free night somewhere decent (that 50k) per week of biz travel. Marriott, not so much.
Simple.
Telephone service is abysmal with misinformation at every turn. Calling the so called elite lines, generally gets you someone who probably has not traveled outside their comfort zone and seems to have little or poor training. You can’t trust a thing said….
Greener pastures somewhere?
Where are these guaranteed Marriott suite upgrades? Because my rate of success as a Hilton Gold has been about the same as a Marriott Plat.
Marriott’s water-down of SPG deserves some beat-up, regardless of how good or bad Hilton or others are comparatively speaking, the top tier needs to leave, even for a while, in the hoping of making MR realize their screw-up & carrots are not working.
Lucky may have known your original post referred to 50+ night elites, but I certainly didn’t. This follow-up post would have been better if you’d started with a mea culpa — that you should have specified the reading audience in the first post.
Extremely well articulated. And despite the obvious, there still not surprisingly are the always present whiners who can do nothing else but whine—here whining about how Marriott is mistreating them even as the largely continue to stay with Marriott anyway. Passive aggressive martyrdom-loving chumps. They really are, along with Donald Trump supporters, the lowest common denominators in American society.
@UA-NYC – sure do spend time at Hilton and Hyatt -with 40 nights and &20,000 spend – love the suites at Park Hyatt DC and Grand Hyatt Hong Kong and the Villas at Conrad Koh Samui etc .
@ L3 — AMEX Gold offers 4x on groceries and restaurants, for a return of about 6.8%. Chase Sapphire Reserve offers 3x on gas, or about 5.1% return. The Hilton card is only good for Hilton spend. Gary is correct.
@L3 you are overvaluing Hilton points, but even so 4x on first $25k grocery spend with Amex Gold (IMHO 7.2% rebate)… even Amex Blue Business Plus 2 Amex points per dollar is better without a category bonus.
@Andy personally? not at all! i love the engagement.
@FQTV I didn’t write the post on Christmas
Gary:
If you travel at your leisure as most of the bloggers do, you can find some good values in redemption, confirm your suite upgrades, and get your 4 pm checkout with Marriott.
If you do have a demanding job, and you are finally going to use your Marriott points over Christmas break you find that:
1) no award availability from Marriott even so they are selling standard rooms through OTAs;
2) no confirmed suite upgrades
3) no late checkout.
I have spend 90 nights with SPG+Marriott this year (and about 900 lifetime night) and I haven’t seen this bad. I stopped getting suite upgrades because I never can confirm them when I travel.
My value of the Marriott points is ZERO if I cannot plan in advance to spend those during few weeks in a year when I can.
I can go to Marriott website and check awards for Koloa Landing, for example. I do see 50K/night. I click and then get a message” “The hotel is not taking hotel redemption at this time but you can make your reservation with your money”. How about that? Just wait and it will become the rule but not exception. I would rather take and spend my money somewhere else.
Bill – arrogant much?
I’m a Trump supporter. and a 75-night SPG person.
There are two facts:
* SPG is now a shell of its former self. Gary is wrong. Period. Otherwise – why would he dedicate an entire post to other’s rebuttals? Marriott is a crummy version of SPG. Anyone who fails to see that is.. a blind Marriott follower.
* You libs really need to get a life about Trump. He could save 3 cars from a burning house and you’d criticize him if he didn’t adopt them. Gawd some of you libs are wayyyyy bitter.
I still think that the biggest reason to leave Marriott is something that you have been harping on Delta about for years, that you can’t trust them, even to follow their own rules. Recent changes to the terms and conditions, changes to reward night levels immediately upon making hotels available under the Marriott program, and the shenanigans around travel packages are just a few of these.
To cite one more recent example I have come across, the Al Maha resort is now not providing the same thing to those booking award rooms as those booking for cash. Now award rates are room only, while cash bookings are full board and activities. Room only is not an option for cash. If this is not a violation of their requirement to offer a base room when it is available for cash, it certainly should be. And the change was made without notice and is still not very evident when booking. And some who booked before the change are having trouble getting them to live up to what was booked.
It is yet another case of Marriott not being trustworthy. It amazes me that with all of the crap they have already pulled, you still trust them to deliver what you think they are promising. I prefer Hilton not promising and then giving me something than Marriott promising and then pulling the rug out from under me.
@Maxie Dean – you are cherry-picking. Two Hyatt hotels + one Hilton does not count as “boo hoo spend $20K and 40 nights and don’t even make mid-tier”. It’s the longest of long tail arguments that likely isn’t found in reality.
I agree with Farnorthtrader’s comment. Here’s why. Gary’s post entitled “Anyone Leaving Marriott For Hilton is Nuts!” is a quantitative, X > Y proposition. If X > Y, then it is irrational for anyone to choose Y. That analysis fails for two reasons.
First, different people value terms and conditions of each program differently. For some X > Y while for others Y > X even assuming a quantitative value can be accurately assigned to each program which I think is a stretch.
Second, as Farnorthtrader aptly points out it makes sense to do business with a company that you trust. Continuing to suffer through aggravation and frustration from a company you do not trust is irrational.
Leave Marriott for Hilton? Probably not. But move some number of stays from Marriott to Hilton based on Aspire Diamond? Yes, that’s absolutely going to happen next year. Marriott should be worried not so much about losing top tier elites to Hilton, but losing stays those elites would have blindly booked Marriott, but are now shopping around.
With all due respect to Luckys success with his blog and business, he’s becoming more and more disconnected from reality.
Ps. @Gary always nice to see the way you interact with your readers. Much better than Luckys pontificating with no follow up.
Is a free breakfast of cooked powdered eggs and sausage made from who knows what really that important to travelers?
If I am traveling for leisure, I never even wake up early enough for breakfast and if I am up that earlier, I sure as hell don’t want to be eating at the hotel. If I am traveling for business, my company pays for my breakfast so free breakfast isn’t an issue.
I am laughing my ass off at those people deciding between $250 a night hotel rooms based on one chain guaranteeing free breakfast for elites and the other chain with guarantee.
I agree Gary. After the merger, as a previous legacy SPG customer, I think Marriott is now much more suckier to most of their valued guests.
My perspective on this “debate” (as a former 50-100 night traveler, HH Diamond, and SPG Gold, though I maintain HH and Marriott Gold via CC):
– As I read your two posts, you place paramount importance on guaranteed late check-out and suite upgrades. By my count, you mention these benefits twice in the original post and four times here. Your unstated assumption, however, is that these benefits must matter equally to all 50-100 night guests. Anecdotal evidence is effectively useless, but I’ll offer some anyway: I’ve personally requested a late check-out one time (at Hilton, and the hotel granted it to me), and among my friends who travel a similar amount, only one has ever requested it at all. As for suite upgrades, for a business trip (likely the bulk of everyone’s 50-100 nights who isn’t a blogger), they mean nothing whatsoever. I have found Hilton properties are overwhelmingly likely to upgrade Diamonds to a better category room, such as at the Conrad Chicago this past weekend when we were upgraded from the most basic room to one overlooking Michigan Avenue or at the Hilton Waikiki, where my wife and I were upgraded from a lower-floor “Mountain View” room to a fantastic top-floor ocean view room.
– I think you undervalue Hilton points. While I disagree with TPG’s 0.006 value as well, I am consistently able to find redemptions at around half a cent apiece, and often better at high season properties (like my stay next summer at the Canopy Reykjavik where my value is more than 0.007).
– Given how Hilton consistently runs simple and rewarding promotions available even to non-status members and Marriott’s lackluster promotions, the chart you included is not a great reflection of the return that a customer should expect at a Hilton property. Since Hilton’s promotions change quarterly or semiannually, it is hard to say consistently what the return is, but as a Diamond I almost universally would receive double-digit percentage returns on spend before accounting for more-rewarding credit card return as well (again, I value Hilton points at 0.005 against your 0.004, so my calculation is based on that and the promotion du jour at the time of stay).
– I think it is a bit disingenuous to compare a single instance of Hilton marking up a room by 1,000 points for a double occupancy tax to Marriott’s consistent policy of not including certain fees within its redemptions, especially at the value you ascribe to them. I think Nick’s point that Marriott continuing to charge members these fees is valid, especially when you have written extensively in the past about feeling the same way at the Andaz Maui as a Hyatt elite.
– I don’t think you address Nick’s point about breakfast completely. His point is not simply that he gets the breakfast just for carrying a $95 credit card, but also that he can expect this benefit to be consistently delivered no matter what brand he is booking. Comparing that consistently-delivered benefit to Marriott’s policy, which depends on which of the, what are we at, 30? brands you’ve booked is something you haven’t done. As a former 50-100 night guest, knowing that my wife and I would receive the free breakfast when on a leisure stay is a nice benefit. I do not know enough about the Marriott program on this benefit, but I do feel a fair criticism of the Hilton breakfast is that where a hotel only includes a “continental” (read: cold) breakfast and asks Golds and Diamonds to pay extra for the extra-charge full/hot breakfast, it certainly feels cheap and not a great reward for loyalty.