Delta Air Lines has moved to spending only as a metric for earning status. And they’re considering no longer awarding full credit for your spending, unless you buy more expensive fares. That’s one lesson of a new product survey they’re sending to frequent flyers that helps them sort through how much extra customers will pay to earn qualifying dollars.
Other ideas being tested include,
- Bringing back change fees unless customers buy up to a more expensive fare
- Return of fees for getting help from reservations, with free assistance via chat features only
In other words, things that are available to customers now become ‘premium services’.
Delta has promised more premium segmentation, like they’ve done for coach with basic economy, regular economy, and Comfort+. Although Delta now markets Comfort+ as somehow being more than just extra legroom, but a different ‘class of service’ (except where that would mean paying higher taxes, such as departing the U.K.).
Comfort+ is ‘premium’. A Comfort+ middle seat isn’t really premium, though. And a Delta Platinum flying internationally in a Comfort+ seat no longer gets access to Sky Clubs. Less premium!
And they’re even testing segmenting the premium (first class) cabin by fare for seat assignments.
Customers taking the survey say “my blood was boiling by the end of it” after reacting to “the absurd offers presented.”
It’s obvious Delta is wanting to bring back change/cancel fees, add in phone fees, remove advanced seat selection, and overall continue their mission to charge more for less.
Delta may not make these changes, and they may not all be under live consideration. The survey is designed to test customer willingness to pay for different things, and to see what changes would cause people to move away from the airline.
There are ‘business’ and ‘leisure’ versions of the survey, and over varying flight lengths. They want to know which services and prices customers might live with. They want to know what the customer demand curve looks like (based on stated responses, rather than revealed preference or actual purchase behavior).
Delta is just a slightly nicer Spirit. Ed Bastain is a post turtle.
One could say that these changes, if they happen, are partly the fault of the government. If there was real competition in the airline industry, airlines would be more responsive to customer issues. However, all the airline consolidation has left most domestic flyers with limited choices. This emboldens the airlines to do whatever they want.
How much did they charge for filling out the survey?
I would love the option to just pay for seat upgrade and not miles, checked bags, etc and save $500.
Delta is not a premium airline. It never was. It never will be. No US carrier is Premium. They are all the same.
With a significant year end MQM roll over I was able to push my Platinum status out until Feb 1, 2026, but with all the egregious changes made to the program during the first week in January I quickly transferred out over $95,000 of recurring annual charges AWAY from my Platinum Reserve card, over to both my CostCo Visa and Discovery cards.
Now instead of spending my usual $7K+ per month on my Delta Reserve AmEx card, starting this year I am only using this card for my Delta flights, Lyft & Uber rides (to score their monthly rebates) & the 15 Sky Club visits.
Unless they make significant changes over these next 23 months I will then be done with all of it and will only fly Delta to keep spending down my stash of frequent flyer miles until those are also gone.
Gary. It’s all I can do to refrain from sending a hit man after reading this post.
Delta is, was, and always be, THE, premium airline.
Dang! Delta is making American look like Singapore Airlines in comparison. Would’ve never imagined that!
I got this survey. Mine was all focused on 4-6 hour domestic flights for business – not leisure in Premium Select or One Class. I rejected all and marked I would look at competitor flights or economy seats if they tried to implement any of the programs. Absurd that they would eliminate services (same day standby, checked bags, etc) when paying for Premium or business class!! I am Diamond – this survey leads me to believe they are going to eliminate a LOT of Diamond privileges in the near future…
I’ve been Diamond for 3 years, platinum before. I live in SLC, a hub. I AM 100% DONE W DELTA.. I will not fly them any longer. There is a long list of reasons but #1 became that they think I’m stupid and will play aLong w thier insulting changes. And you know what, so far I am happy to fly other airlines.
It’s a marketing test. Most of it won’t see the light of day.
And part of the purpose is to “float” ideas which competitors might consider as well.
The same chorus that argues that Delta is not premium can’t explain how it manages to consistently charge and earn more per seat mile than any other airline.
Clearly the hangouts on internet chat boards are a loud but tiny minority. Delta’s REAL customers pay more for its service and thus earns the title of being premium.
“relating to or denoting a commodity or product of superior quality and therefore a higher price. ”
150 plus million customers aren’t wrong.
Gary’s primary objective is to create premium page click revenue, facts be damned.
@Tim Dunn
Your proclamations about Delta are like claiming you picked up a turd from the clean end. Just because they may suck a little less in some areas doesn’t make them great.
I just took a Delta “comfort class” trip and it was far worse than basic coach in the days before dysregulation. In fact, it was horrible, from the poorly cleaned and maintained plane, broken PA system, lack of sufficient storage for customers in other classes, iffy ventilation, filthy washroom, and utterly awful food.
This race to the bottom is precisely why regulation setting basic rules is necessary. Somebody tell that oaf Buttigeig.
Maybe that price I paid, thousands more than the people in coach, is 1970s coach plus inflation. No value added, that’s for sure.
H2,
you STILL don’t get that premium is not defined by YOUR perception of quality.
Premium is defined by what customers are willing to pay and Delta most certainly does lead the industry in that regard
I’m not sure why you and others are so dense.
How DARE you post anything negative about Delta, the universe’s #1 premium airline?!?!?
Wait til my Daddy calms down and actually posts something more substantive than what he posted above, you’ll all be sorry!
@Tim Dunn
If by industry you mean our poorly rated airlines in the United States, you’re probably right. I have flown the Asian airlines and have experienced premium service. Being the fourth ugliest girl in school does not make you pretty.
@ Gary — Well, if Delta brings back change fees that just proves with a liar Hauenstein is. UFB. Only Delta.
Tim Dunce aside…Delta is proving once again that they truly believe they’re better than they actually are…and we’ll prove they’re not by keeping our wallets closed.
Good riddance.
Um…I’ve flown Comfort+, and it’s basically what coach *used to* be back in the day. It was better than Main Cabin (I wound up flying all three domestic cabins in one vacation), but it was the bare minimum of what I’m accustomed to on a flight—little different than my usual Southwest trips, but with a mimosa. Yay.
And I’m not saying this to bash Delta, because I actually do like them a lot. They accommodated me well during the flight cancellation. But I wish that people as a whole would quit acting as if they were some magical, mythical premium unicorn airline that’s justified in charging $500 for a $200 flight. That’s why I call them the Taylor Swift of airlines.
okay, i retract my assertion from the love field gate thread
tim dunn is not a 14-year-old son of a delta employee
he is an AI bot paid for by Gary to stir up controversy
to wit:
“The same chorus that argues that Delta is not premium can’t explain how it manages to consistently charge and earn more per seat mile than any other airline.”
This is a perfect example of how AI algorithms fail when deep nuance is needed to avoid the fallacy of false association (i.e. post hoc, ergo propter hoc.)
“Tim”, i can pay $4.50 for premium gas on the interstate or $3.50 for regular in my neighborhood, but in both cases it’s still liquid carbon with a difference of 4 octane.
Cost has no direct correlation with “Premium” or “Comfort” in US commercial air travel.
@ Gary — And how the hell can the justify giving less than 100% MQD credit? A dollar spent is a dollar spent. Obviously these morons gave no thought to the name of their status ” metric.” Medallion Qualifying Dollars was an incompetent choice. At least United had the foresight to change the name of their metric several years ago. Delta apparently doesn’t fully understand the rage of their “loyal” customers. I guess they will issue another round of insulting changes and wait for the angry backlash AGAIN.
@dodged. Hi find that highly insulting
Tim: “The same chorus that argues that Delta is not premium can’t explain how it manages to consistently charge and earn more per seat mile than any other airline.”
Anyone that reads Delta investor day publications can explain that because Delta says it: Interior monopoly hubs that drive their profits in conjunction with low costs at those interior hubs. There’s probably some small RASM premium from customers that prefer them, they do have a loyal group of kool aid drinkers, for sure, but even delta says it’s much more to do with their interior monopoly hubs when they’re talking to investors about their sustainable profits. It isn’t rocket science. Delta is a very well-run company (not a cult or your family, Tim) but they’re quite open about what enables their growth in coastal markets and profits and it isn’t really their brand, it’s the profits they use to subsidize other hubs.
Don’t mean to be overly simplistic about this topic, like Tim always is, but Delta is quite blunt that their monopoly hubs drive their profitability.
It’s funny how Tim raves about how “no one can explain…” uhhh. yes you can because Delta says what it is and, thankfully, their investor relations department, while sending out the shiniest version of Delta, is a bit more honest than Tim.
@ MaxPower — Honest is not a word that comes to mind whan discussing Delta.
I am a DL 2 Million Miler. I was Diamond for the first 6 years or so of the program but got over the top on the spending requirement with credit card spend. You may remember that at some point, to make Diamond, the card spend requirement went from $25k to $250k, a tenfold increase! I have been Platinum ever since. I had the Delta Amex Reserve card for many years but recently dumped it in favor of the Amex Platinum Card.
Unlike other commenters, even though I agree that DL has deteriorated a lot over the years, I will still fly them if the price and service are right and I generally like the onboard service. However, I am no longer tied to DL. Recently, they actually did something positive for us long time elites. In my case, I am now lifetime Platinum for being a 2 Million Miler instead of lifetime Gold. However, I no longer fly for business so will likely never get 3 million miles to make lifetime Diamond. I have enough MQMs to get to Diamond in the one-time conversion process but am still trying to make up my mind if I care. To me, the best Diamond perk has been global upgrade certificates but they have been hard to spend. OTOH, converting to spendable miles isn’t all that appealing as their value has depreciated so much.
max,
first,
if Delta gets so much from its core 4 (US interior) hubs, WTH have AA and UA been doing for the past 45 years of deregulation that DL has done?
and the internet is FULL of assertions that DL loses money on its coastal 4 hubs.
Neither of which is true. Delta has captive hubs – but so do AA and UA.
The simple fact is that DL gets more for its services and that includes from its loyalty program and credit card relationship.
Are there structural advantages such as that Amex charges merchants higher fees so they can share more revenue with Delta? perhaps
Did Delta outsmart AA and UA by winning engine maintenance contracts with all 3 of the global engine manufacturers such that DL lowers its own maintenance expenses and “subsidizes” its own employees and fleet? sure… but then why was AA and UA incapable of doing the same?
does Delta save over $1 billion/year on fuel costs compared to AA and UA because they had the foresight to buy a refinery which saves them on every one of the 4 billion gallons of jet fuel they burn? absolutely. Again, why didn’t AA and UA figure out a viable way to reduce their fuel costs as much?
the simple fact is that DL doesn’t get a huge revenue advantage from its core airline operations but certain does get some. They simply have developed a better business model which allows them to pay their people more, run a more reliable operation, and in turn get more high value business including in the highly competitive coastal markets.
btw, do you realize that AS had a net income margin of just 2% in 2023 – less than 1/3 of what DL got. B6 was unprofitable. Do you suppose that DL really can get by with small profit margins in these coastal hubs because their primary competitors aren’t any more profitable?
DL’s profits DO come heavily from its core 4 hubs but that doesn’t mean that their coastal 4 hubs don’t make money and the extra money DL earns compared to AA and UA is because of the better total business plan DL has over AA and UA.
And customers do pay more – via lots of channels – which means DL does have a premium product – whether you or anyone else can accept it or not.
One of the complaints over the last few years is that the Diamond population was too high, many members reaching that status on card spend alone. This made competition for upgrades tight, often pushing true frequent flyers down on the list. Frankly, I’m happy to see the requirements tighten up. I’m sure that’s why some of the other comments are about giving up on the various AMEX cards. I’m sure that I’ll drop my Reserve card when I retire in a few years.
Until then, the system is working for me.
I’m just spending down my Delta miles. I am a 2 million miles but since retirement fly infrequently. I have flown SW, United American and British Airways since retirement. Delta is not a premium airline at all, it’s the same as the others except SW which has no premium cabin or assigned seating. United is just like Delta, American slightly behind. British Airways and Air France are better than any domestic airline. I do have lifetime gold status on Delta but their dates are always higher. Ed Bastin is a dreamer if he thinks Delta is a premium product. Hope the flight attendants vote in the union just to irritate the ego maniac Ed.
and, btw, MAX, do you remember not that long ago that AA touted its high margin hubs at DCA, CLT and DFW but the size of those margins meant they had to be losing money in some hubs – and they said as much about NYC – just bolstered by how they allocated credit card revenues?
And UA loves to talk about its international network but there is hard data – whether you or anyone believes or not – that says they make significantly less than Delta in the same international regions. and when you add up all of profits in UA’s regions – including domestic – their domestic hubs really don’t deliver higher profits even though they talk about how huge those markets are and how well-positioned they are.
So, Delta DOES tell us that its coastal 4 hubs drive the majority of its profits but it doesn’t say their coastal 4 hubs lose money – because they very likely cannot given how much of their network is in those 4 hubs. Add in that AA and UA don’t tell us where they lose money or break even at best even though they underperform Delta and it is clear that everyone believes what they want but the clear evidence is that AA and UA neither make as much in their best hubs – and the question is why they can’t match DL – and then do a lot of flying that is not profitable.
feel free to explain that reality and then you’ll understand why Delta is indeed premium.
Plain fact MSP, DTW, SLC, ATL are all uncontested hubs – no other passenger airport in town competing for fliers
AA only has PHX, CLT on that basis
UA only DEN
Margins are higher when you have less competition, not anything ‘premium’ about it
They also just raised their checked bag fees 17%
Only a Premium airline like Frontier or Delta would nickel-and-dime customers like this, even in first class.
WTH do you think MIA is? they have an uncontested hub from the largest single airport to an entire region?
DCA is also an AA hub.
And DEN is very much contested. WN for years carried more domestic local passengers – but not revenue than UA.
And UA has multiple hubs where there is no other airline hub at the same airport even if there are in the same metro area at another airport.
but, if that is the case, why hasn’t UA figured out how put its hubs in places where it would get that premium? We are 45 years into deregulation and AA, DL and UA all have had the same amount of time to execute their strategies.
DL is more profitable because it has executed strategies that other carriers have not been able to match, have reaped higher profits from them, have reinvested more profits in its core airline business, and won more corporate revenue where it matters most – and the result is that DL gets more revenue – both passenger and total revenue – per seat mile than any other airline.
DL developed the premium finance airline model that no other airline in the US has been able to duplicate.
I received the leisure version of this survey. They’re also proposing only a small % of MQD on most fares. Eliminate Sky Club access for most Delta One fares. My answer on almost every screen was I’ll be looking at other airlines. I’m a captive in ATL too but there are options. I don’t expect anything positive for next year unless the economy tanks before then.
No this can’t be happening.
My head is about to explode.
Tim is arguing with Max which was said by Delta on investor day.
Therefore Tim is arguing with Delta?
But Tim can’t argue with Delta. Because Delta is premium so they are always right, backed by 150 million customer.
This Premium paradox is mind boggling.
I rarely get drawn into the who’s right…who’s wrong arguments here but find myself drawn into the discussion of what “premium” is. It seems to me that there’s a disconnect between what most of the posters are saying and Tim Dunn’s responses. The former are saying that Delta’s recent actions belie it’s status as a premium airline. Dunn says if they generate premium revenues they, definitionally are a premium airline. History is replete with cases of premium products and services which lost that status with a lag as they degraded their product or service, raised prices too much or allowed themselves to become obsolete. So most of the posters are really arguing that Delta increasingly doesn’t deserve to be considered a premium airline.
329,
the simple fact is that the few people that write on the internet DO NOT SPEAK for the majority of Delta’s customers.
We heard endlessly last year w/ Delta’s mileage program changes that millions of people would walk away – and that is absolutely not happening.
I copied the definition above and the definition of premium is based on what customers are willing to pay.
Delta simply collects more revenue per seat mile than any other airline – and what anyone THINKS about how premium Delta’s service is or is not SIMPLY DOES NOT MATTER.
The reason there is a perceived disconnect is because people want to equate their OWN ANEDOTAL perceptions of how they have experienced Delta service and try to impose that on 150 million real customers without considering the price those 150 million ACTUAL customers pay.
When Delta actually stops generating the premium, THEN AND ONLY THEN, can we say that Delta is not a premium airline.
We can all blur reality by our own personal experiences and by what we THINK or EVEN HOPE might happen but that doesn’t mean that is fact.
MIA has FLL and PBI as a crosstown bleed
DCA has IAD and BWI as bleed and on and on for pretty much any coastal hub except Seattle (though Paine is now there)
Looking at mid continent where the big margins are…
ORD bleeds to MDW – UA/AA
DFW to DAL – AA
IAH to HOU – UA
CLT no bleed – AA
PHX no bleed – AA
DEN no bleed – UA
ATL no bleed – DL
DTW no bleed – DL
MSP no bleed – DL
SLC no bleed – DL
That’s the difference – only Delta has all of its mid continent connecting bank hubs with no contest from another airport in the region.
See how quickly DL gets defensive about even an inkling of a smidgen of traffic at an alternate Atlanta airport – and you see how that’s the golden goose that they will defend more than anything else. Avoiding crosstown airports at a domestic connecting hub.
So I flew Delta for the first time in 20y on a paid F fare because they had the times I needed.
Check-in at Bozeman was pleasant, they had fresh popcorn at the gate. Nice experience, was pleased.
Flight to MSP was ok, service was meh, did get a PDB, snacks were meh, seat had a lot of pockets but both were incredibly dirty, crumbs etc.
MSP-DCA flight was delayed even though the plane had been there all day. App didnt show reason for delay nor did it ever update with the swapped aircraft, CS center Red coat had an attitude like how dare I ask why their flights are delayed.
Onboard pilot blamed the late arriving aircraft for the delay, even though it arrived early by 30m, not once did they ever acknowledge that our original plane went tech and was swapped.
Service to DCA was good, food was inedible. Cheese plate had stale cheddars and 10 small salamis and some terrible dessert. The smoked chicken ravioli came out cold and when finally warm enough the zucchini was mush. Two other passengers sent their food back as dry and inedible according to the FA when I told her how bad ours were.
In the end there was NOTHING premium about the experience, it was a typical flight on a US airline that couldn’t even be honest with us about delays.
AA’s food in F on the way out to BZN was much better but their service was even worse.
At least I can be a free agent and buy F where it’s best for me and not have to be loyal to a company that is purely transactional.
Delta is Not, never was, and NEVER will be a premium airline. The resident Delta-bot propaganda machine is working overtime today. Bottom line? DeltaSUX.
greg,
it is beyond laughable to argue that DL gets defensive about a 2nd airport in the Atlanta area considering the mess in N. Texas that has still not been resolved.
And you and others can’t get that N. Georgia has built up to the point that the majority of people in each proposed community for a new airport wants another commercial airport in their area. Pinning the blame on Delta when it is the actual residents that have decided the future of N. Georgia airports is beyond blame.
And, again, ATL is the only one of these hubs that was a DL hub 45 years ago. How did Delta manage to defend Atlanta and acquire 3 new hubs and AA and UA weren’t capable of figuring out the same advantage?
And, if you are happy to argue how much of DL’s profits come from its core 4 hubs, then you clearly are saying that AA and UA’s bubs are not near as good as they paint them OR they have a whole lot of dead wood alongside some mediocre hubs. Which is it?
I’ll accept the “DL’s hubs are in better metro areas” for them to price higher if you will accept that AA and UA”s hubs are not near as great as you and others make them out to be.
and given that DL is growing its network in major coastal competitive markets like BOS, NYC, LAX and SEA, what is AA and UA’s future if DL uses all of these much larger profits ($2 billion more than UA and $3.75 more than AA in 2023) keeps taking share of AA and UA’s large coastal markets?
Scott,
again, your PERSONAL experience doesn’t matter one iota in determining whether DL is premium or not given that they carried 175 million passengers in 2023.
No one’s experience mattered. What matters is what people paid to fly DL.
At least greg is arguing the right subject – he just has to come to the logical conclusion of his arguments.
Delta flies premium flights from MSP, DTW, and other premium hubs. When they fleece their elite, discerning guests, they do it in a premium fashion.
@Tim Dunn “it is beyond laughable to argue that DL gets defensive about a 2nd airport in the Atlanta area considering the mess in N. Texas that has still not been resolved.”
No, there’s nothing inherently wrong with multiple airports… LGA/JFK (and for that matter EWR)… SFO/OAK…. ORD/MDW… DAL should absolutely still be open, Congress shouldn’t have capitulated to the deal to carve up Dallas and cap Love Field gates.
And Atlanta might benefit from another airport. Delta wouldn’t, sure. And Atlanta benefits from Delta, just as Charlotte benefits from American. Delta plays some serious hardball with local pols. And with the airport. Even without slot restrictions the airport makes it as hard as possible within or just past the line of what the FAA will let them get away with in terms of how they treat new entrants (think back to B6’s entry into ATL).
Atlanta would benefit from more gates, whether those ought to be at the same or another airport. Paulding Field is a legit 1-2 hour drive from ATL…
Wait! I think I finally get Tim Dunn’s argument. And he’s right. Delta’s prices are premium even if their service isn’t. I get it now. Every one else is arguing about them not providing premium service while Tim argues it doesn’t matter because the price is premium.
Tim is arguing with Ed again?
What a confusing day.
“the simple fact is that the few people that write on the internet DO NOT SPEAK for the majority of Delta’s customers.”
That’s not a fact, that’s your assumption, aka pulling a Tim Dunn fluff.
Ed wouldn’t admit to ripping the band aid and backtrack if the people who write on the internet DO NOT SPEAK for the majority.
Delta has the most favorable margin profile because of the margin profile of its mid continent hubs – ATL largely, then MSP, DTW, SLC – all enjoying no cross town competition, favorable connecting geography, and corporate bases large enough to support one, but not two global carriers.
There is little premium about the hubs or the airline’s product that earns the margin at those hubs. you could run an AA product on time with those hubs and have higher RASM than peers.
It then uses the excess profits from those hubs to try and grow in more competitive markets that have larger total profit pools but less per carrier because of multi airport bleed and being so large they can support marginal players.
To play well in those markets you need to have top reliable and premium offering, which is costly.
DL has more profit from those midcon hubs to throw around and can accept less of a margin in LAX, NYC than UA or AA who rely more heavily on those markets for their profit.
Reliability was one of the higher cost differentiators, that’s what DL led with in the 2010s, and now UA/AA are eating the cost to be more reliable relative to DL than in the 2010s.
An interesting question would be if shareholders would be better off if they retreated further from coastal hubs that are profitable, but not as high margin and return as the midcon hubs – and returned the excess to shareholders. How much could the stock move with a really aggressive buyback/dividend program?
What a “spirited” discussion!
Just another way to fleece customers for “maximum revenue extraction.”
Along with the Amex Delta Gold card annual fee going up to $150 a year without a true corresponding increase in benefits, this is a poor decision for customers, and those who WERE loyal to Delta. I emailed them about the fee increase, hoping for a little more information or even sympathy, but got a terse corporate response, so I’ll be cancelling that card before the fee increase for me (which apparently will be in May even though my $99 annual fee was charged in January and they announced the increase last month…I thought I’d escape until next January but they just keep trying to squeeze us all out! I think I’ll switch to a Capital One card that gives refunds for ANY extra flight costs like baggage, I think up to $200 a year if I remember correctly.
@ Gary — Much of Georgia suffers economically because of the lack of another ATL area airport. If you live in midsized cities like Macon or Athens, you are screwed when it comes to airport access. There are many other parts of Georgia that are so inconvenient for air travel that no one will move there. It is time for another Atlanta airport, ideally to the East.
Greg,
we are finally getting there. Mostly.
The only part that you missed is the much higher non-transportation revenue – Amex, loyalty program and MRO revenue – and the lower costs from the refinery.
ALL of that PLUS the higher margins DL gets from its midcontinental hubs is what allows DL to subsidize not just its coastal hubs – which are still profitable but at lower margins than its core hubs – but also its employees’ higher salaries which help it deliver better service.
And, while the service at Delta is measurably better, it is indeed the network and non-transportation revenue that is what gives DL the revenue advantage.
DL’s marginally better revenue IS enough to help it win corporate revenue which is higher revenue and DL has been masterful in going into companies that have corporate agreements with AA and UA and win their corporate revenue where doing so allows DL to grow its network.
and, Gary, you once again are patently wrong. The citizens of the areas where proposed airports in N. Georgia could be built/expanded HAVE VOTED that they do not want commercial service. If DL is capable of convincing all of the people of N. Georgia that ATL is the only place that should have commercial service in N. Georgia, then Delta wins the prize for corporate brainwashing to do it to 7 million people.
And, again, why couldn’t other airlines figure out how to do the same thing in their hub metros?
it is a flat out lie that B6 wasn’t given gates at ATL. They wanted sole use of gates on an international concourse (E) for domestic flights. No other airline including Delta is allowed to do that.
Your commitment to what you think is true is admirable but it is no wonder that you attract so many readers that don’t know what they are talking about when you don’t either.