Howard Altman, the Managing Editor for Military Times, documented his Southwest Airlines flight to DC on Tuesday filled with “Fight For Trump” cheers.
“Fight for Trump” the passengers cheer. pic.twitter.com/Zm387rr9rJ
— Howard Altman (@haltman) January 5, 2021
If you like mask-optional travel, try @SouthwestAir which doesn’t seem to mind. pic.twitter.com/Tmrz4kZQ3b
— Howard Altman (@haltman) January 5, 2021
Many cheers for Trump. “The most MAGA flight I’ve ever been on,” says one man headed to the rally. pic.twitter.com/8jjyFSxsNl
— Howard Altman (@haltman) January 5, 2021
Southwest Airlines for its part takes to twitter to note they have mask policies. Here, on this flight, those weren’t enforced. But Southwest is also in a difficult position.
Prior to departure the airline could have offloaded passengers or even cancelled the flight. Once they’re in the air:
- Flight attendants can handle one or two passengers not wearing a mask, but clearly hear the maskless outnumber cabin crew. With a ‘maskless mob’ you’d worry about mob mentality.
- The airline could divert, but they aren’t going to want to, that’s costly and a huge inconvenience to other passengers. It also could have escalated tensions even further.
- Meeting this flight with only a handful of police wouldn’t be enough to remove everyone unwilling to wear a mask.
Ironically the safest thing to do in this case might be to fly with so many people unmasked. That’s not ideal, and it may not even be right, but standing in the position of the flight crew at the time I’d have a difficult time criticizing their choice in the moment.
And can Southwest Airlines even reasonably ban so many passengers who weren’t scolded for not wearing their masks first? That seems like a reasonable thing to do, but it would take quite a bit of effort to identify them, even from video, since the airline doesn’t have assigned seat lists to match people against.
(HT: Jonathan W.)
This is so crazy. I don’t like the masks and think they are pretty worthless but I’m not going to risk being kicked off a flight or banned. It’s easier to just go along until all of the craziness goes away. Which brings the question, when I get the vaccine do I still have to wear a mask?
No one knows if masks will still be required. The vaccine supposedly only protects the receiver. I’ve read you can still pass the virus along to other people.
@ Gary — I can’t wait to see how many people are arrested at DCA in the next 48 hours as they attempt to depart after their little tour of the Capitol building.
Saying that Southest is in a difficult position is bs. They took government handouts, and they should have diverted this flight and tossed these people off at the most inconvenient location possible.
@OneXMarine Forgetting about whether you could still spread the virus after being vaccinated (unknown at this time), how would the other passengers know if you have actually been vaccinated or if you just an anti-masker who were claiming to be “already vaccinated” as a reason to go maskless. The prudent thing to do is to require masks until the risk of transmission and/or severe sickness/death is very low (which it is clearly not at the current time). It’s a small concession to protecting those who are vulnerable as well as the general public.
Even if masks only help a little, just wear the damn things because every little bit helps. We need to get this over with, and that requires cooperation. Why does the MAGA mob not realize this?
OneXMarine – yes, until it can be proven that you cannot be a carrier post-vaccination. That study is ongoing.
The second dose is effective 1-2 weeks afterwards, so either way you’d definitely have to wear it until then.
@ Juan – It has nothing to do with MAGA. Americans are independent and don’t like to be told what to do. There is so many different stories about the virus that a lot of people (me) think it’s been over hyped to hurt the Republicans and it appears to have worked.
What do you expect on Southwest. If you’ve ever flown on their planes, you know it is a very different caliber of passenger than on Delta, United, or American…..
Clarification: I took the Pfizer vaccine. I’m not sure if the other 4 have the same time-to-immunity duration.
@ Jonathan – I get my health care through VA and they find a way to certify everything. I would expect that we will get some kind of card that shows we have been vaccinated. I believe that will become a necessity to get international travel back on track as some countries will not allow visitors who can’t prove they have been vaccinated.
@OneX – nice try this has everything to do with MAGA. All Trump worshippers have a hand in bringing us to what happened today. You break it you buy it.
Thank god the Dems will now have full control in two weeks. Adults back in charge.
@ UA-NYC – Saying that all MAGA people would behave like this is like saying that all Democrats are socialist and communist. Not a good look to make generalizations. And don’t forget ANTIFA and BLM are democrats.
@Andrew with the Moderna shot at least you’re getting 80% protection from the first shot, the second shot boosts to 94% and extends the protection (likely won’t be as long lasting with just a single shot). Pfizer *should* be similar but I haven’t re-read the details here. Best data at this point (very preliminary!) seems that the vaccine substantially reduces (two-thirds to three-quarters) likelihood of spreading the virus but does not eliminate the possibility.
In any case, the cost to verify whether each person has been fully vaccinated or not is too high to make a case-by-case determination of the need for mask wearing so it’s going to remain required for everyone throughout the pandemic.
The FAA doesn’t allow smoking e-cigarettes inflight (water vapor!) largely because other passengers can’t always tell the difference between those and real ones… we’re not going to ask people to make individual determinations like mask vs no mask.
@OneXMarine—You know very well that Trump has never encouraged his MAGA tribe to wear masks, nor does he care about social distancing. Some leadership would have helped, and now it’s been 10 months and that is severely lacking.
Gary – Pfizer is 52% after the first shot. That’s what the CMO at my hospital told me, and the online literature seems to confirm that.
Gary – agreed on your other points. Thanks!
@ Juan – Are we not adults? Why does the President have to repeat what every pundit that can get in front of a camera is saying? Had Trump been beating the mask drum it would not change my view on the masks. I’m an adult, I can think for myself. I wear masks so that I don’t create issues for the business that I visit. You can come to mine with or without, I don’t care. And I can assure you that no matter what Joe Bama and Spread Eagle Harris say I’m going to turn a deaf ear to it.
It appears their behavior and ignorance extends to insurrection. Looking forward to many of these being identified at the Capital and locked up.
@OneX – you are so blind in Trump fandom you are making the “many fine people on both sides” argument. Classy.
Not seeing too many Biden supporters committing acts of insurrection and sedition these days.
@ UA-NYC – I’m hard hearing, not blind. Although I do need readers these days. I assure you that Antifa and BLM are not MAGA people, so they must be Democrats so in your own words all Democrats are Antifa and BLM members. And since Spread Eagle Harris accused Joe Bama of being a racist and rapist in the debates then all Democrats must be those as well. I have the TV on in my office and I don’t see anything like what went on this past summer going on this evening. When they arrest the people who damaged the Capitol, and I hope they do, we’ll see who they are.
I’ve always been curious what would happen if 40% of a flight just removed their masks after take off. Every flight. Every day. Can’t ban everyone or divert every flight. All rules require some degree of voluntary compliance.
Thanks to social media it would be pretty easy to stage maskless flash mob style protests. On flights, in grocery stores, malls, etc. Then what?
@ryan What would happen is that you’d have a flight that is comprised of 60% intelligent people and 40% morons. They’d probably all arrive at their intended destination but that doesn’t make it ok. It’s not always about what are the consequences, but rather what is simply the right thing to do.
Hopefully none of these passengers on the flight were involved in the criminal trespass at the US Capitol and illegal, seditious insurrection that took place in recent hours.
@Jonathan You really think 60% of people on an airplane are “intelligent”? Very optimistic. You also miss the point entirely and offered an insult rather than an actual thought provoking answer. Not that I should expect real dialogue in a blog forum.
To my original point. Rules have value to the extent people are willing to follow them. So would mask mandates be enforceable in any meaningful way if they were simply ignored by a large % of the population? My answer is no. So if you disagree tell me how you think businesses would react if people just stopped wearing masks. Whole Foods, Home Depot, United Airlines, etc.
And to your point, if everyone still gets to their destination, then there is no enforceable rule. Just a current state of affairs that allows airlines to make an example out of people because they are outliers. That won’t last.
Anywho, all the best. Civil discourse. It’s a 2 way street we all need to be on more than ever.
Southwest was a fantastic company about 15 years ago. Lately, they’ve just struggled to engage their customer base.
@ryan I probably was being generous with my 60% but I digress. I’ll answer your question with another question. How would the local authorities handle it if all citizens with dogs stopped picking up their crap en masse? It would be hard, if not impossible, to monitor every person out walking their dog.
What would eventually probably happen is that there would be crap everywhere and anytime you walked around the city, it would stink like sh*t and you’d end up tracking said shit into your office, house, vehicles, stores, etc. You could try to step around all the sh*t, but sometimes it’s hard to avoid and there is some spread of it to some degree.
Eventually, people would probably get tired of stepping in the crap and everything smelling like sh*t and they’d demand that the local authorities enforce the regulations because it’s a health and quality of life issue. Or, the other alternative is that people would just act in the best interest of their fellow citizens and pick up after their dogs.
The Covid situation isn’t all that different. Even if you don’t believe in wearing a mark (or picking up after your dog), you do it because it’s the healthy thing to do and you care about others and trying to be a responsible citizen.
Rules are enforceable to the extent we live in a civilized society. If people decide not to follow the rules, then society as a whole needs to decide if/how to deal with it. Society, rules, and laws are simply constructs that humans have created. Yuval Noah Harari wrote a fascinating book called Sapiens that talks about this topic in detail if you want to learn more.
@Jonathan 100% agree. I would also say the argument can be made equally for speed limits, jay walking, staying home when feeling ill prior to Covid, etc.
Specifically if speed limits exist to protect motorists, the fact that so few follow them (myself included) says a lot about how we feel regarding rules that are meant to protect people but still feel arbitrary.
There’s also an argument to be made that by having too many rules you create a lack of respect for authority. Turning otherwise law abiding citizens into “outlaws”. And once you enough people who feel like outlaws then the rules of law itself becomes diminished.
Enjoyed the banter. Maybe one day we can all return to the pub to enjoy too many pints while engaging in deep conversations that don’t actually have an impact. But are fun anyway.
I can’t wait to hear about what happens while all these seditionists fly back home from their super spreader convention in the capitol building. I’m sure many will give grandma a big kiss before they die gasping in denial. Grandma doesn’t deserve that.
After reading this article. I will never fly Southwest.
@Ryan
Whether you know this or not. Airlines can make rules arbitrarily and yes you have to follow them. There are plenty of laws that allow airlines to do just that. Comparing any airline to Whole Foods isn’t accurate and isn’t applicable at all. Sitting in close proximity to other people for hours on end is nothing like walking down an aisle at Whole Foods.
Now for this flight in question. There are plenty of pics with people seated. Seat numbers can extrapolated from the pics. Also flight attendants take lots of notes as well. It would not be surprising that some of these passengers get banned by Southwest.
Mask mandates can be made enforceable by the way they are enacted. Plenty of jurisdictions have done just that. Businesses don’t have a choice then. Airlines are doing that now by banning passengers. Flying isn’t a right. It is a privilege. Airlines ban passengers all the time. For many reasons, not just noncompliance in wearing a mask.
If it wasn’t clear before, after this afternoon it is now. You are a patriot or you are a Trump supporter. TDS
@JohnB Of course they can. But no business will ban 40% of it’s customers.
I wear a mask. Not because I fully believe in the dogma surrounding them. But because it might help make others feel more comfortable about a return to normalcy.
Unrelated, everyone should be watching the direct feed from the floor of the Senate right now. Not Fox or CNN or whatever. Direct feed. Witnessing the end of Trumpism in the Republican party. Regardless of any political leaning that is something to be celebrated.
This is neither hear nor thear.
@ OneXMarine
Almost a third of a million people dead in the US alone, and the country’s most deadly year in its history (by far), is not “overhyped” anything. And spare us the conspiracy theories about how the pandemic is political.
Do masks work? Lots of evidence says yes. Maybe even like a vaccine of sorts.
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200909/could-your-mask-be-a-kind-of-vaccine-against-covid-19#1
https://www.foxnews.com/health/mask-wearing-employees-starbuks-south-korea-spared-coronavirus
https://www.livescience.com/hair-stylists-infected-covid19-face-masks.html
The key wow line in the masks-might-be-like-a-vaccine thinking
“Population studies seem to support the “mask as vaccine” theory. For example, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported that by mid-July about 40% of coronavirus infections were asymptomatic, but in areas of the United States where mask wearing was very prevalent, that number rose to 80%.”
Wouldn’t be surprised to see onexmarine at the latest travesty at the Capitol. Sadly
His “thinking for
Himself” involves actually not thinking and blindly following that Orange Skinned Pseudo Dictator.
This flight should have never taken off with these idiots onboard. If it did, then divert it, cost/inconvenience be dammed. I would have embraced and even celebrated it as a passenger. Companies have the right to refuse service, period. Sure, they all have policies for mask wearing and lots of other things, but too often none of them have the balls to enforce them. If I go into a business that states masks must be worn but find out that “corporate” won’t allow them to enforce said policy, I will no longer do business with them. Companies in their quest to not alienate customers never seem to think of this. If you are willing to risk the health of the majority in favor of a few entitled, uncaring assholes, you are not worthy of my business. Stop being pussies and treating people with kid gloves.
Yeah these pictures were during boarding. It shouldn’t have taken off.
This is one time where the open seating policy doesn’t help, since you can’t just take passengers’ seat numbers and relay that to the airline to ban them.
What’s a shame is that there isn’t a test experiment for maskless flights. In a month, it’s almost certain that it would prove that masks do absolutely nothing to prevent on-board infection. That’s what the science is screaming at us. Of course, even if such an experiment was run, we’d probably still have masked flights. That’s because religion is a more powerful influence than science.
“That’s what the science is screaming at us.” That’s an interesting statement for many reasons, especially given that your proposed experiment hasn’t been done yet.
For the record, I caught it in February 2020 in the first class section of an Alaska Airlines flight from IAD -> LAX. The guy sitting behind me had the same cough that I had for 4 weeks after that. We were not wearing masks, because that wasn’t a thing back then.
Anecdotal, but at least I have an element of data. Your science-y assertions don’t appear to be based on that.
just keep banning them! flights will be safer for 2021.
Dear Gary,
I completely disagree with your statements! Look what happened in D.C. It is this mentality that allowed what happened. This flight should either never taken off OR it should been met with PLENTY of police upon arrival. Instead we are giving into bullies. I agree the flight crew once in the air is not the ones to enforce it yet they could have made announcements and advise any passenger that will not comply could be prosecuted upon arrival. Don’t confront, advise and then you have legal merit to arrest upon arrival OR you remove them. I am sure this started before TO. I hate wearing a mask but I do it not for me but to protect my neighbor. The questions is how sympathetic was the flight crew with these protesters. You might want to start there.
Or you can just mind your own business and don’t worry about what other people do.
Oh, and I forgot. Someone did your science already, chopsticks: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/11/20-3299_article
The problem is that no one stands up to these entitled a**holes. But that’s going to end soon once the FBI starts tracking them down through flight records, hotel records, facial recognition on Capitol security cameras and their boastful crap on Facebook and Twitter. The FBI has already been notifiying DC area residents to provide all information on guests at AirBnB rentals for the last few days. Write to your Representatives folks and request that all damage and restitutions be be paid by the criminals, in addition to full prosecution for all crimes. #NotMyTaxDollars
Then we’ll see how brave they are.
@ OneXMarine. You’re right again. I challenge UA-NYC to produce photos, or videos, of burned out private businesses, department stores, churches, restaurants and Starbucks destroyed by MAGA protesters. UA-NYC and many other big government worshippers have very selective, and short, memories. But that’s what politicians count on . . . perhaps airlines too.
Joyce ? Are you also advocating that the FBI track down all the left wing criminals who robbed, burned and pillaged our cities and monuments for the past few months or does your indignation only apply to Republicans? And to UA NYC who is sporting their regular nonsense. Accountability goes both ways. Never saw you commenting or condemning the left wing when they were acting in a similar manner with even more widespread damage and destruction. You’re hypocrisy has no bounds!
@CMorgan / One Trippe – how Trumpian to make the “many (un)fine people on both sides” argument. Interesting how you try to immediately find an equivalent (hint: there isn’t one) to Trump’s Terrorists attempting an insurrection/sedition and attacking the US Capitol.
No wonder the rest of the world is aghast at us (aka so-called Republicans and their associated army of Proud Boys, Three Percenters, and Q Anon worshippers).
Southwest sure didn’t have any problem kicking off a 2-year-old who was eating pretzels on a flight last month and had his mask off. But they have the audacity to refuse to kick off all of these maga freaks… Hey Southwest how about being a little bit more even-handed. it’s bad enough that you’re willing to kick off old people young people babies and toddlers for your stupid mask rule, but that’s fine we understand that it’s just a dumb policy. But what makes it an even bigger insult to injury is that you would actually allow other people grown adults who know better to not have to follow the policy because you’re too afraid and spineless to do anything. Maybe you should go ask for another handout while you only have 13 days left to do it from Trump. You have permanently lost my business and my respect.
@OneXMarine: OK, I figured it out. You’re actually Gary Leff, who just posts under a pseudonym to create clicks.
Nice try Gary.