Blogger JT Genter of Award Wallet writes that he was kicked off of an American Airlines flight from New York JFK to London Heathrow on Monday after moving someone’s bag from the overhead bin above his seat in premium economy.
He says that overhead bins in the cabin were full when he arrived, but carry-on bags above hm were placed horizontally so he first tried to rotate them vertically to make more room. One of the bags was too large to do that.
- He asked passengers in the cabin whom the bag belonged to, but no one acknowledged the bag.
- He figured it must not be a passenger in the cabin (that turned out to be correct, but also the eventual problem).
- Since the bins say they’re for premium economy only, he moved the bag back to coach… where it did not fit.
Flight attendants now had to deal with an overhead bin in economy that would not close. And that’s when it came out that it was a flight attendant’s bag that he’d moved. He was told to move his bag to business class so the crewmember could have the space back.
He did not want to have his bag with electronics and medications in a different cabin. Genter quotes the purser of the flight,
It’s a shared space. He’s got a specific place where his bag has to be, and you moved that. You moved another person’s bag, which is a crew member’s bag, which is not allowed. So go ahead and find another place for your bag.
Genter, who says that he recorded the interaction, later quoted the purser “You moved a bag. You did something wrong. You know what? I’m going to go tell the captain” and quoted the flight attendant owner of the bag that was moved, “I want him outta here.”
A supervisor was called to the aircraft. He says they thought the situation was silly, but also that flight attendants “would refuse to fly” if he wasn’t kicked off the flight.
Genter was rebooked onto the next flight (and offered a non-reclining first class seat instead of premium economy, which he declined). His checked bag flew without him, but he was reunited with it in Corfu, Greece. And he received 5,000 miles from customer relations as an apology. He concludes,
The reaction by the flight crew wasn’t just disproportionate — it was punitive and personal. The gate supervisor and on-duty manager made it clear that the American Airlines flight attendants and purser overreacted to this situation. I wasn’t removed for breaking a rule but because a crew member took the situation personally and insisted on my removal.
This removal appears to have been in direct violation of American Airlines policy which was revised in the fall following an incident where eight black men were kicked off of an aircraft over a reported body odor issue. Those men were not traveling together and did not know each other. The airline said that crewmembers could not initiate concerns unrelated to safety or security leading to removal from an aircraft (such concerns had to come from customers only).
Taking the situation as JT describes, and I’ve known him for years dating to when he used to work at The Points Guy, it sounds to me like there’s a little bit of blame to go around here.
- He should not have moved another person’s bag out of the overhead bin and into a different cabin on his own. He didn’t want his own bag away from him. Here, he’d left someone else’s bag in a place where they wouldn’t even know where it was. He should have involved a flight attendant. He mentions there not being one around, but he could have waited or sought help.
- He should not have left the bag he moved to coach in a bin there when it wouldn’t fit. Whenever something is a close fit, I test to ensure the bin will close. Here he just left it as somebody else’s problem, right as the flight is getting ready to depart.
- JT should have apologized when confronted over what happened. He assumed the bag belonged to a coach passenger, and moved it to coach, since the bin is supposed to be reserved for premium cabin passengers. The assumption he based his actions on was wrong and a little bit of humility might have gone a long way to diffuse tensions.
- However, he should not have been removed from the flight over this. He wasn’t a threat to other passengers or the aircraft. While I think JT made a couple of choices he probably shouldn’t have, it sounds to me like the airline escalated things unnecessarily. And while he made his original connecting flight in London, 5,000 miles is silly as compensation for getting kicked off of the aircraft.
JT is hardly the first passenger to move another passenger’s bag back to coach. I called out the behavior then, so should say here I don’t think doing that on your own is the right reaction.
At the same time, here’s a coach passenger who was kicked off an American Airlines flight for using an overhead bin that wasn’t in their cabin – the signs that bins are for passengers in that cabin are meant to be taken seriously.
I’ve certainly seen plenty of interactions over the years where a flight attendant lets their emotions mix with authority in the cabin. That authority really rests with the captain.
49 USC § 44902 provides broad latitude, within certain bounds laid out by the FAA, for the captain of an aircraft to refuse transportation to a passenger if they feel that passenger might be “inimical to safety.”
A pilot’s decision cannot be arbitrary or capricious – but it’s generally presumed that the actions of the pilot are reasonable, and judged based on facts the pilot was aware of at the time and the time constraints they’re under. Their authority is virtually unreviewable under these standards.
Here, though, it sounds like it was the airline’s decision and not the captain’s to remove JT because the flight attendants were threatening not to work if he wasn’t kicked off. That would have meant cancelling the flight. If accurate, it was a childish threat and one that should have had the flight attendants fired for even being made. If those crewmembers are still working for the airline (which they almost certainly are) that points to an ‘inmates running the asylum’ problem that underscores what’s wrong with the service culture at the carrier.
Well, it could be worse…
Original sin was removing another PAX’s bag without permission. Like the apple in the Garden of Eden, everything stemmed from that
JT tried being an alpha and look how it worked out…
Over reaction by FA. But, JT should not have moved someone else’s bag to coach. Perhaps the bag he moved also had meds & electronics like JT’s did?
JT should know better. How would he feel if someone moved his bag to coach???
He should file a complaint with the FAA. At the very minimum, his airfare should be refunded. Especially if the supervisor was recorded as saying he did nothing wrong,.
FAA or DOT. Whatever it is.
Why would any crewmember travel with a bag that doesn’t properly fit in an overhead?
@ Gary — Morals of the story — 1) Always board first if you need overhead space and 2) Don’t touch stuff that isn’t yours.
There’s more to this than what is reported. I would think that he should have consulted with the flight attendant first. “Oh, that’s my bag. Let me help you find a place…” Maybe the flight attendant would move her/his bag to another overhead bin, whatever. Then again, the airline is…American. So, who knows…!
By being taken off of the airplane in such circumstances, he should be due much more substantial compensation.
He should have not moved a bag without checking with a flight attendant. Also he apparently boarded late because he was trying to get an upgrade at the gate? There’s no “bargaining” for an upgrade. If you’re on number one on the list and a seat becomes available it’s yours. Otherwise, back to steerage or steerage plus you go-what you paid for.
Here’s a novel idea of how he could have avoided the situation. Pay for business or purchase the cash upgrade. Problem solved.
@Gino, based on this story it seems to me like the FA was the one who tried being an alpha by hiding behind some made up level of authority that didn’t apply in this situation. Getting someone kicked out of a flight over this is ludicrous.
Yet another post that confirms my intention of flying AA as infrequently as possible. Last one was 7 years ago.
Humans can suck, and that’s the basic problem here. Everybody did something wrong and then the AA crew over-reacted. The real lesson: when you’re a passenger and need to get somewhere, don’t fight with the crew, even when they’re wrong. Kind of the same principle of not arguing with a cop.
@George N Romney
What has the time of JT’s boarding got to do with this? The overhead bin says that the space is reserved for PE pax and, as far as I can tell, the FA was on duty and not in PE.
The only thing more annoying than having to read about yet another crew member of a US airline getting on a power trip and throwing a tantrum is having to read comments from people looking to shift the blame away from the crew member.
This kind of FA behavior in the US is a little bit like the US tipping culture – most people hate it, but nothing ever gets done about it so it just gets worse.
Definitely could have been handled better on both sides.
Is this IDB?
United forces flight attendants to use Tumi crew bags that do not fit correctly into overhead bins.
@George N Romey JT here. I was not “bargaining” for an upgrade at the gate. I didn’t even speak to the gate agents before boarding this flight. My tweets reference trying to purchase (with cash or miles) an upgrade to business class at the SoHo Lounge during my 6-hour layover before this flight.
The information missing here of course that will completely swing the narrative here is are any of them jewish?
The cash upgrade window closes at some point before the flight. A supposedly seasoned AA flyer would know that. Either purchase the upgrade before T-24 (as that is when the offer seems to disappear) or play the upgrade lottery. Was business full? If so, asking to pay for an upgrade is useless. Also, you would know that in this day and age lounge staff being able to do miracles is well over. I few good old ones exist but most aren’t any more capable/willing than a gate agent.
As far as bin space. If you want/need your bag next to you make sure you’re down at the gate before your group boards and be the first in the group to board. Problem solved. Instead of sitting in the lounge and expecting space next to your seat. That’s what I used to do before AA bestowed (for reasons I’m not sure why) CK status on me.
This person is an idiot. He spent an entire day taking a positioning flight to Toronto, wasted six hours in a lounge, and thought he could talk his way into an upgrade on a JFK/LHR flight in the middle of the summer season, when it would be clear to any intelligent person that the odds of an upgrade would be very low (including in the context of standard formulas for allocating seats between paying passengers and non revenue passengers, which is a standard component of any airline’s P&L model). What kind of an idiot wastes 12+ hours of his day to save a tiny amount of money, vs. just buying the J/F seat to being with??
George N Romey says: “The cash upgrade window closes at some point before the flight.”
That’s the kind of wisdom we all come here for. What would we do without deep insights like this one? 🙂
In other news, the Pope is Catholic, and yes, Bears do defecate in the woods.
I am the flight attendant whose bag was removed from the overhead bin by Mr. Genter. I agree that he should not be removed from the flight for this reason. If he had simply asked someone in the crew about space for his bag, I would have been happy to move mine to accommodate his. There was more than ample space further forward and I was not married to the spot above his seat. I contend that Mr. Genter was well aware that my bag was a crew bag ( I have crew tags on it…) and took umbrage over the fact that my bag was in “his” overhead bin. Again, I would have moved it for him if asked and I don’t think this conflict over space is a proper reason to remove him. The real reason he was removed was because he indicated that he did not have to comply with crew member instructions, basically defying me and 3 other flight attendants. Mr. Genter indicated to me, the purser and 2 other flight attendants that he did not have to follow the rules and there was nothing we could do about it. I think it is reasonable to expect that this defiant and non compliant behavior would continue after take off. That is a problem not only for the security of the flight but also for the financial bottom line of my company. If he chose to remain non compliant and an incident arose with him inflight we would have been forced to divert to another airport to remove him there, costing the airline and the passengers money and time. In consultation with the captain and corporate security we determined that it was prudent to have Mr. Genter removed to avoid disrupting the otherwise normal operation of this flight.
@Gary – Pretty much dead on regarding all relevant aspects.
I dearly hope that the FA is fired quickly as they need to find more suitable employment for their mindset.
One thing that you hadn’t praised in this circumstance is how full the overhead compartments were. Given that that empty bins are a favorite gripe it’s interesting and relevant that the bins were so full. If nothing else I would have thought that you would cheer American for full bins.
The crewmember was completely in the wrong here. However my rule of thumb is to never confront a crew member aboard an aircraft. It’s never going to end well for the passenger. That said, the passenger should have complained immediately to AA online. I’ve done this before for a very similar situation. I wasn’t confrontational to the crew member but I told them I should not have to walk all over business class to retrieve my carry-on because my specific space that was direct above my solo lie flat seat had been taken by them. Nor did I want to climb over people after landing. AA gave me tons a points, EXP here. Also the comments about the passenger should have boarded earlier, well crewmembers often board before everyone else. Happened to me, I’m sure the same happened for this passenger. The crewmember involved should be reprimanded and disciplined. If they don’t like their job nor how to perform their duties, find another line of work.
While I don’t know if Scott Shoup is a real person, his position is eminently accurate and reasonable. This idiot blogger should be banned for life from AA.
My experience dealing with AA personel is that they only do what is minimally required of them. Any time dealing with them is a waste of time since they will always defer to being “in charge” and have you removed. Because they can.
JT unforunately gave the FA an excuse to remove him. Moving a bag is not something that is done by a passenger. Do I think he was right to move luggage? No. But throw him off the flight? Give me a break.
Scott – if you’re real, and the recording verifies you saying what you said – you’re a power crazed little b|tch. This is why you all are called sky waitresses.
@Scott – fascinating comment if true
The rest of your comment indicates he should have behaved in a very specific way. Passengers come in all sorts of personalities and they should be accommodated unless abusive which JT obviously wasn’t. To say JT indicated defiance of crewmember instructions is inappropriate. Those who know JT know he is one of the most polite people on the planet.
I also want to reply to your claim if JT wanted your space, all he had to do was ask – seasoned flyers including JT know damn well that AA crew don’t like to be asked anything and respond with grunts and eye rolls more than Yes Sir’s. Not saying this applies to you, because from your words (notwithstanding my previous paragraph) you seem fine, but you get painted in the broad brush of AA crew among which the general reputation is poor.
Sometimes, two a-holes meet each other. This was one of those times.
@ Scott — I call b.s.
just another reason to avoid AA, my favorite 3rd world airline
FA at anytime can claim they’re not feeling safe and refuse to fly thus delayed or cancelled flight. It’s their right. So now some saying the FA should be fired? Not happening either. Strong union. Try it on United same result
FA bags have disappeared off flights before and their uniforms are in them. This is also a security issue. Don’t touch their bags.
I think @Mark has it right. If you’re a seasoned flyer then you would know:
1. Never argue with crew unless it’s something materially safety related
2. Always assume if you board late there won’t be room for your bag around you
3. No airline gives a squat about “travel influencers”, which seems to be a dime a dozen
4. If sitting upfront is so important to you then pay (ahead of time) to be up there. It’s damn important to me so I just pay up.
Help me understand why the FA didn’t move his/her bag to biz? Power trip of course.
This is why American attempt to move to a more premium experience is DOA.
@Ron, it obviously fit before it was moved.
I’m not sure about the AA contract but in the past it was always “fly it then grieve it.” Might be a good rule of thumb for us passengers to adopt.
Maybe it’s my past personal experience but it seems that many issues that morph into problems involve male flight attendants.
What is “coach”?
@Gene @George N Romey Boarding ea4ly doesn’t solve the problem unless you’re in First Class. My friends & I often board our AA flights in Group 2 or Group 3 and booked in Premium Economy, A LOT of the times the row above us is full with flight crew luggage. My group & I frequently end up having to put our bags in the rows behind us. It is very frustrating knowing no seats around us are filled, yet the overhead bins are. The flight crew boards first & that is their preferred section to put their bags. Your advice to board early only works if you have first class tickets, or you’re at the tail end of Premium Economy
Pretty rude to just move someone else’s bag. I don’t fly as much as a professional traveler, but I’ve encountered full overhead cabins even when I’ve boarded quite early. Just found another overhead bin to put my luggage. Also, why would you put so many valuables in a carry on when you never know if it’s going to get checked. I always use my personal item bag for that.
@ Dora — Well, then place your valuables in the bag you plan to store under the seat in front of you. You have options other than using “your” overhead bin space (which is not “yours”). You can also buy first class.
The whole thing about “my overhead space” is ridiculous. If you really want to keep an eye on your belongings in the overhead, place your bag(s) on the side opposite your seat and slightly in front of you so that you can see your bag at all times. I always store my bag this way, but frequently receive dirty looks or childish comments from people who believe that is “their bin.”
If VFTW commenters had their way, everyone here would be both ‘fired’ from all our jobs, and also ‘banned’ from every flying. I guess ‘de-escalation’ is dead, and we’re just doin’ witch-trials for everything these days. (Quick! Someone bring out the duck and the scale!)
@Gene putting your bag in a bin “slightly ahead of you”, may force the person seated in that row to put their bag in a bin behind them. That is a hassle when it comes to deplaning. Putting your bag in the bin across from you I think is okay, but not in front of you.
I believe JT’s removal had more to do about his demeanor than the removal of the bag, although he had no right to remove another person’s bag, especially boarding late in the process. “Failure to follow crewmember instructions may violate FAA regulations by interfering with the crewmember’s ability to perform his or her duties on the aircraft. The FAA may impose civil penalties of up to $13,910 for such violations.” Passengers exhibiting argumentative or uncooperative behavior on the ground before departure can be indicative of how they may behave inflight, especially in case of an emergency. Obviously, it is much easier to deal with these situations before becoming airborne. Flight Attendants deal with tens of thousands of passengers with all kinds of issues and very seldom is a passenger removed. So it would appear that F/A’s (and Captains) have a pretty good sense of when a passenger crosses the line and may become an issue in flight, thus making them a candidate for removal.
The callous scofflaw should have called the FA’s bluff, and had them walk out of work, jn front of the entire flight and pilots. I’d have loved to have seen that.
Another story of a FA on a power trip. AA follow up response is pathetic. They even knew that the story was going to be published (because he asked them for comment). A form letter and 5,000 miles? Total PR fail.
I find JT Genter’s story compelling. I hope video and audio are released to bolster his story.
@1990
I’m with you in that even bad employees should be kept. However, this FA Scott Shoup is a male old hag FA that has multiple reports of being a bully. He uses his 35 year seniority to get these routes and then bullies passengers. Another time, he threatened a passenger over the way a beverage was served by him.
FA Scott Shoup is also anti-women, calling 2 women “bitches” in social media. Not surprising because he is openly gay.
@scott shoup- you should be fired or at least disciplined for your little pout fest power trip. People like you ruin the flight experience for everyone and you think you’re way more important than you actually are. Paying passengers come first. You move your stuff and you keep your mouth shut about it. What a disgraceful display
” that points to an ‘inmates running the asylum’ problem that underscores what’s wrong with the service culture at the carrier.”
Not the root cause but definitely the recurring theme.