American Airlines told employees earlier this year that they wouldn’t require vaccination. But the President of the United States told Doug Parker they had to. And the airline has now informed employees they have until November 24 to provide proof of vaccination or begin the termination process in advance of a December 8 federal deadline for government contractors to be fully vaccinated.
Airlines want their employees to be vaccinated, because they don’t want them getting sick and calling out sick causing the carrier to cancel flights due to lack of crew. As they rebuild their schedules they’ve had lack of crew, a result of pushing out workers despite federal subsidies meant to prevent them from doing so.
The airline says about 70% of pilots, and a majority of employees are vaccinated (compared to over 80% of employees at Delta, and a reported 99% at United though this excludes those that have been granted religious or medical exemptions).
Of course vaccine mandates for employees do little to protect passengers who spend most of their time exposed to a larger number of other passengers, in the security and check-in lines, the gate area, and in the middle seat next to them.
Employees don’t all want vaccines, especially at American Airlines where recent reports had over 4000 pilots unvaccinated. And some American employees picketed headquarters on Thursday. Pilots are the greatest risk to the airline (since it is much more time consuming and costly to replace pilots than other employees), but cabin crew social media groups have been lit up over the issue as well.
A little protest at AA headquarters today in Dallas. Lots of support among people driving by. Resistance is growing.#Wewillnotcomply#Ourbodyourchoice #MedicalFreedom
@AmericanAir pic.twitter.com/VeaOtL1YtS— MommaBear737 (@MommaBear737) October 7, 2021
Some observers have wondered what a pilot that’s threatening to quit would do if they’re not flying for American Airlines. This is a good question because of union seniority.
- At this point many U.S. regional carriers don’t have vaccine requirements.
- Many foreign airlines don’t, but without vaccination flying to many destinations is simply not possible.
- Leaving the current airline usually means “starting at the bottom” and giving up seniority, less pay, less attractive schedules, and overall lower quality of life.
Older pilots – one American pilot quoted in the piece has been flying with American for nearly 30 years – may be close to mandatory retirement anyway and would just choose to retire early.
The newest pilots may be less likely to be unvaccinated, but would be giving up less to move. However the bulk of pilots have too much to lose and I’d be surprised if they remain unvaccinated. Expect more fake vaccine cards.
American Airlines blames the federal government for its vaccine requirement with no option for regularly testing instead (that it’s treated as a government contractor rather than merely a large employer). And I suppose pilots might criticize the airline for refusing to give up its government subsidies.
- Pilots are complaining that they have to make a financial choice, because American Airlines won’t make a financial choice, doesn’t that seem pretty hypocritical?
- Even before American’s CEO Doug Parker spent all his time last summer in DC lobbying for subsidies, his pre-pandemic legacy was built on government support. He’s the least likely to stand up to government when pushing for new fuel subsidies.
I’m not sure what the change model is here, protesting in front of Skyview? It seems like those concerned with vaccine requirements should be protesting in front of the White House instead? The American Airlines pilots union is already threatening chaos over the holidays, and ruined travel plans, from the world’s largest airline have a shortage of pilots (and they already, still are short on pilots).
Last week in Phoenix, airline President Robert Isom was encouraging employees to get the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. A single dose of J&J is less effective than an mRNA vaccine but is the easiest way to meet the requirement. There will also be religious and medical exemptions. United Airlines has told those granted such an exemption they may not work but won’t be fired. While not necessary for such an exemption one pastor sells religious exemption letters.
Southwest Airlines pilots, meanwhile, are suing their airline over the mandates. There will certainly be lawsuits against the OSHA requirements for employees of large employers to be vaccinated or test regularly, once they’re released, and those are likely to be on the shakiest legal footing.
Why would the outcome at AA being any different than it has been at United where almost everyone got vaccinated in the end?
This is a great way for AA to cut costs. I imagine the anti-vaxxer profile skews older, so they can be replaced by newer lower cost staff
Well the resistance to embrace science concerning the safety and effectiveness of vaccination among those pilots refusing to be vaccinated pretty much eliminates any notion that all pilots are intelligent! Is it better to lose a job with very good benefits rather than get protect yourself and others from the spread of COVID-19? Come on, get the vaccination…..it is not going to kill you, but it just might save you life.
The unvaxxed and fired AA FAs can play candycrush and chat on social media full-time now. Oh, wait they already did that 90% of the time while they were on duty. Looks like they just won’t get a paycheck for it anymore.
Passengers are next !!! Cant wait in DCA now lobbying for it.
Work in the restaurant business! Plenty of jobs that don’t require one take an ineffective, experimental shot with unknown side effects!
And then have to get boosters of the same ineffective shot because the first 2 didn’t work.
They can start a new airline called Covid-air. No masks ,no vaccines, no lifejackets ,no oxygen masks and no brains
Personally I would prefer (and select whenever possible) an airline where everybody is vaccinated, passengers, crew, gate agents and anybody else I would need to be in close contact.
In my opinion no vaccination is a choice like drunk driving. You endager other.
I want the cockpit crew on my flight to have good judgement, just as my clients want the engineers and analysts that I hire to also have good judgement. Seems like a prerequisite for such jobs. Someone who’s unable to do the risk management assessment of getting vs not getting one of the vaccines available in the USA, and makes the wrong choice (to not get the vaccine) should not be in the cockpit. And thinking about it, same goes for the cabin crew given their primary role for passenger safety (and same goes for the mechanics working on maintaining the aircraft). Choosing not to get a vaccine without a legit medical reason (or lying about it) seems to me like prima facia evidence that the employee’s judgement is flawed, and the employee should be the object of a management initiated separation from the business (or at least put them on unpaid leave for 30 days so they have time to reconsider the decision before making the separation final). If they make the wrong choice (to not get the vaccine), then they have no place working on a commercial aircraft.
Thing is, NONE of you saying these people must get vaccinated have ANY clue about the person’s medical history and why it may not be advisable. We hear abortion, My Body, My Choice is between the “Birthing People” and their doctor. Why doesn’t the same apply here.
It’s required to have a slew of other vaccines to attend school, go to work, etc. My mother in her retirement just applied for a job at a public school where they require the MMR vaccine, which she had back in the 1960s. To prove she has had it, she had to get a blood test or get the vaccine again. I don’t understand why this is any different. These same pilots picketing/refusing to get the vaccine have most likely been vaccinated against many other things in their life already! There are 3+ billion people in the world who have been vaccinated against COVID- the data is out there, Pfizer is now fully approved… Most other airlines are requiring it too regardless of a federal mandate or not. I hope these 4k pilots get it and move on in life- I’ve got too much flying to do the rest of the year all booked on AA!
‘Airlines want their employees to be vaccinated, because they don’t want them getting sick and calling out sick causing the carrier to cancel flights due to lack of crew.’
In a sane world that makes sense, but vaccinated people do get sick to the point the vaccine definition was downgraded from prevent transmission to reduce the severity of symptoms.
Will they let a vaccinated pilot that tests positive fly?
To the ER….
I don’t like medical mandates, because it’s a slippery slope. I’m vaccinated. In the same way, I never applied for a job that required a drug test. Never did drugs either. Just F you for having the temerity to ask.
All that said, I’m going to make a partial hypocrite of myself. I’m OK with folk taking a principled stance if they honestly believe the COVID vaccines aren’t safe, even if I vociferously disagree with them. But sometimes, it seems, a principled stance is supposed to be without consequence. With that I disagree. If you want to be an outlier, be prepared to pay the piper. Too bad, so sad.
I just won’t be booking any AA flights after mid-November. Somewhere, the excreable Ed Bastion is laughing, again..
I agree with Woofie and consider it a shame of America that so many people accept drug testing. However, there is a difference between what one does to their own body and what a mutating infection can do to others. Personally what I’d like to see is a non-coercive pressure for everyone without a medical exemption to get a vaccine. There is a possible route, I think. If the insurance companies simply refused to cover anyone (at least at anything approaching a reasonable rate) who wasn’t vaccinated that would be a very strong inducement. Imagine not being able to get any kind of coverage–car, home, trip as well as medical without it–and see how fast people would come around. If that’s too extreme, then employers requiring it as they couldn’t get coverage otherwise would also be a very strong inducement. I suspect that is what is happening with some of this damn drug testing, so why not put the same pressure to a good public safety use?
When I got second shot, I felt really rough for a couple of days and not so great for a couple more – if I were a pilot and had that much responsibility, I probably wouldn’t have felt comfortable going back to work for at least a week, and even after that, if I felt the slightest symptoms, I would think twice about flying, out of the abundance of caution that is so abundant right now. This is all about safety, and pilots who are recently vaccinated will always need to err on the side of caution, even if it means delays/cancellations, which I’m sure the airline and passengers will understand
Libs only beleive in “my body, my choice” when it involves killing a baby. What is with the anti science of ignoring natural immunity? People think the vaccine is the answer to everything yet I know a lot of people who have got Covid and have the vaccine. I wonder why the CDC doesn’t track break through cases. That seems a bit anti science for not allowing people to see hard data. I know from experience many in the hospitals near me are fully vaccinated.
The American Airlines Anti-Vax crew can start online based side hustles. While most of them will be looking for others jobs which is a good thing to do, some of them will let the entrepreneur bug out and start a side hustle. One of the best digital nomad based businesses to start online is a blog discussing how you lost your job. Millions of Americans still feeling the pinch from being wrongfully terminated or furloughed are looking online for people and YouTubers they can relate to for side hustle ideas. And one good idea for a side hustle is to start a YouTube channel discussing popular cologne and perfume.
Getting fired is never good feeling in the moment, Gary. But it can also be a good thing in disguise and set someone up not just to let the entrepreneurial bug out, but also ste themselves up to be a future side hustle millionaire, all off the strength of getting fired.
Agree? 🙂
They might be allowed to drive a bus in some of the Red states.
Just like hospital staff they will either comply or get in the breadline.
We’ll see how many really walk out on their $200,000 a year jobs, but there are plenty of openings at fast food restaurants, so they won’t need to wait long to find work. AA wants its crew alive and at work, rather than sick or dead. We’ve had 200,000 COVID deaths in the U.S. since vaccines were widely available to all adults. Almost all of those deaths were avoidable. Enough with coddling the anti-vaxxers. Exclude them and let the rest of us get on with our lives.
Well well, thank God we just bought a Citation. I’m simply done with these mandates. I had covid and recently tested for antibodies and still have them even 14 month after I was in ICU with the virus.
I imagine Woofie would like his pilots to be subject to random drug testing, or his children be vaccinated for all of the childhood illness, whether pre school to college. The FAA and airlines have strict “bottle to throttle” rules. THC positive test can result in license revocation. Pilots already follow these rules so vaccination mandates are not very different.
Got to love all the fascist libtards on here. The ones crying about Trump being fascist for four years now wish death and misery on those who dare disagree with their indoctrination. That’s is actual real fascism.
The Church of Fauci is our Redeemer bleats their usual refrain…The vaxxxxxxxx is the cure! Those against must be punished. The science! The SCIENCE! Never mind everything you were told has changed or been shown to be a lie. WE STILL BELIEVE MESSIAH TONY!
You loud pro vaxxers are tools of big pharma and we are laughing at you.
To all those trying to draw an analogy between my body my choice on abortion vs vaccination, I’d love to have the opportunity to sue you for not getting a jab. But collecting a judgment from the unemployed would probably be difficult.
Aa far as the pilots, they will do all they can to see if they can avoid a vax. They are used to walking all over AA Mgmt in negotiations. But aside from a few who are near retirement anyway, they will fold. Because no other job would come close to the compensation or relatively light workload they now enjoy.
Wow. What a lot of misinformation here. More lies to others from anti-vaxers and to themselves.
1. The COVID vaccines are highly effective, more effective than some other vaccines at both preventing transmission of the virus and preventing infection. No viruses are 100%, nor do they claim to be. We can see how effective they are considering that the vast majority of those hospitalized and dying are unvaccinated. The latest stats showing numbers with the highly infectious Delta variant are that unvaccinated people are 5 times more likely to be infected and 10 times more likely to be hospitalized and/or die from COVID.
2. The COVID vaccines are like many vaccines in that their protection wanes over time. For example, we get the flu shot annually. It was thought from the beginning that these vaccines would require at least annual shots. I get the typhoid booster every 3 years.
3. The vaccine mandate takes into account potential medical problems from the vaccine. People who are unable to have any of the three COVID vaccines in the U.S. can get a medical exemption. There was great concern before I got my first dose. My allergist contacted all three manufacturers after reading all their medical literature. I’m seriously allergic to many drugs and many ingredients occasionally used in drug manufacture. He decided it would likely be okay for me to get it, but when I got it, the medical personnel were ready in case I had a reaction, and I didn’t leave the administering facility for two hours after the shots. I had no allergic reaction. Later on I did have a fever and some chills, but that’s not a problem and was actually a good sign.
4. As to natural immunity…OMG…is that some kind of joke. In the U.S. 45,030,695 have already gotten COVID, and 730,413 have died from it. According to several studies, about 1 in 10 COVID survivors have at least one moderate to serious effect of COVID 8 months after recovering from the disease. It’s currently estimated that as many as 3-5 percent of those recovered from COVID will have long term health effects from the virus including chronic heart, lung and brain issues for many years, perhaps until they die. Natural immunity doesn’t seem to have helped a lot of people. Depending on natural immunity will keep this pandemic persisting for a long time.
5. No one likes to be told what to do with their bodies. The difference here is that those who refuse the vaccine are not only putting their lives in danger. They are putting anyone around them in danger too.
6. The vaccines aren’t experiment. The Pfizer is already fully approved. mRNA vaccine technology has been under development for more than two decades. They have been as thoroughly tested for safety and efficacy as any drug.
7. The idea that these vaccines aren’t safe or effective is total nonsense. Yes, there are likely a tiny percent of people for whom the vaccine isn’t safe enough. They can get a medical exemption and depend on everyone else to be vaccinated creating herd immunity to keep them safe. Yes the vaccines aren’t perfect, but the more people who get them the more the odds will increase that those who are vaccinated won’t get infected and will not transmit the virus nearly as much as if they weren’t vaccinated. This is known information derived from the data of more than five billion doses administered.
If you don’t like the idea of vaccines, okay, but don’t lie about the facts of the matter. Vaccines, whether you like their idea or not, have been saving tens of millions, no billions of lives for centuries, ever since the first vaccines were invented. (Edward Jenner is considered the founder of vaccinology in the West in 1796, after he inoculated a 13 year-old-boy with vaccinia virus (cowpox), and demonstrated immunity to smallpox. In 1798, the first smallpox vaccine was developed.) Vaccines have been demonstrated to be the most important medical development that has extended the life span of humanity by years and years.
Nice try Chas – see THE CDC site an learn about its effectiveness. FWIW: I am a survivor – the vax saved my life!
I don’t want unvaccinated people on my plane -gross! So bye bye anti-vaxxers as you p_ss away your cushy do next to nothing for industry-leading pay position’s all to make a political statement! Good riddance!!
Ppl in these comments r brainwashed idiots who watch nothing but CNN
Good for u if u want to take experimental med there is no reason to force ppl no country has done this in world but we have a senile running the WH so what can u expect.
I love the hypocrisy of pilots picketing against safety.
Let’s imagine a wonderful world full of unicorns and rainbows, were the citizens are 150% vaccinated (half the people took extra, “just in case”), the ever-masker party is in the majority and all these subjects are crammed together in airports, airplanes, cruise ships, buses, trains, taxis, ubers, restaurants, clubs, bars, business conferences, sports arenas, hotels, nail salons, offices, apartments and hospitals. And the covids continues to spread, mutate and occasionally kill off an old, fat diabetic?
Then what?
[Fill in the blank] is a condition of your employment at this company.
If you don’t like it, leave. It’s that simple.
Don’t go away mad, just go away.
Get over it.
==========
If someone has a medical condition that prevents one from taking the vaccine, then one would likely not be able to obtain a Class 1 medical certificate. Problem solved.
==========
Darth Vader: Help me take off this mask.
Luke Skywalker: But, you’ll die.
Darth Vader: I have my rights.
@Reno Joe knows where it’s at.
Jase,
NSL did a pretty good job rebutting your comments. I would only add a couple of thoughts in response to “…I know a lot of people who have got Covid and have the vaccine” and “I wonder why the CDC doesn’t track break through cases.”
First, the vaccine works by accelerating the body’s natural immune response to the infection. So even when someone is vaccinated, the body may still get infected by the virus, but the accelerated immune response will respond to the infection before it has a chance to bloom and do real damage (and/or cause you to become a significant shedder/spreader of virus). Still, vaccinated people will take a PCR or antibody test that detects the infection (or natural immune response) before the infection is big enough to cause symptoms or worse, hospitalization (or even worse, death). The point I’m making is that yes, with the vaccine, people can still be detected to have COVID, usually (but not always) without symptoms.
Second, where did you get the idea that the CDC doesn’t track breakthrough cases? The key performance indicator of the usefulness of a vaccine is the percentage of people with the vaccine that are hospitalized (i.e. breakthrough cases) vs the percentage of people without the vaccine that are hospitalized. When you hear that one of the mRNA vaccines has over 90% efficacy at keeping you out of the hospital, it means that if you are vaccinated, you have reduced your chances of being hospitalized by a factor of 10+ solely because you chose to take the vaccine. The data the CDC uses to decide on how well a vaccine works depends on measuring breakthrough cases.
The long term risks of the vaccine are for now, unknown, except that with every passing day, the definition of “long term” gets … longer. The only substantive vaccine risk is anaphylactic shock (an allergic reaction to the vaccine that if it’s going to happen, happens very quickly), which is why people hang around for 15 minutes after getting the injection (because its easily treated with a quick injection of epinephrine which all vaccination sites have handy). After that 15 minutes, the known risks are infinitesimal, and the unknown risks are just that, unknown. The benefits, however, are huge.
The risk of not taking the vaccine, in addition to increasing the likelihood of your own hospitalization and death, is that you also increase the likelihood of you becoming a spreader of infection. And that’s the reason I fall into the group of people that would like to see everyone who can be vaccinated, vaccinated, so we can get this pandemic (along with future variants that depend on human hosts for their evolution) behind us sooner. Yes, by choosing the freedom to not be vaccinated you cause trouble for others, and that’s not acceptable.
Hence my original comment about judgement and the ability to do a simple risk analysis: for most people it’s a no-brainer to get the vaccine. For a pilot to choose not to be vaccinated, its prima facia evidence that their judgement is flawed, and I for one don’t want that person anywhere near an aircraft, let alone in the cockpit. Find another job, preferably one where you have no proximity with other people.
Wow @SE Rob would you please get a life or at least practice some self love in the privacy of your own home. Gun Oil – Stroke 29 is my product recommendation for you.
Anybody notice that there has been no actual OSHA requirement issued? Only the jawboning of Biden.
https://reason.com/volokh/2021/10/07/28-days-later-the-biden-administration-still-has-not-released-an-osha-employer-vaccine-mandate/
Fire them and let those with good judgment take their place. And we should be requiring a vaccine to get on a plane.
@Philly4life, is that really the best shot you got? Nothing to say on the subject? Sad. Although you do seem to know a lot about the recommended product. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Have a nice weekend!
All I have to say is my colleague’s brother would not get the vaccine. He died from COVID Wednesday. So, now his two boys have no father, a wife no longer has a husband, a mother no longer has a son, and a sister no longer has a brother. And that is just the immediate impact. It is NOT just your body and your choice. Your choices have far reaching consequences.
And to add some numbers, a local hospital had well over 2,000 hospitalizations in August. 6% were people who had been vaccinated.
Please get vaccinated. Your family depends on you.
I agree with these pilots and flight attendants! what happened to “freedom of choice”? This vaccine is NOT like other vaccines that have been tested for years, so NO ONE knows the outcome of it. Anyway, as people can see, vaccinated people STILL get Covid and STILL have to get a 2nd and 3rd vaccine… WHY, because it does NOT work!
So, good for these pilots, walk away! and take your health into yur own hands!
Vaccines are great! People that oppose these mandates are not anti vaxxers.
These shots for COVID-1984 are not vaccines. Numerous studies show their effectiveness wanes terribly after only a few months. Even CNN reported this yesterday.
The question is how long and severe the side effects are. I would prefer my pilots not be at risk of heart attacks or nerve damage.
@SE Rob. If you are insuating that I am not fully vaccinated you would be incorrect. I am not an anti vaxer but I do beleive in personal choice. Where is the data that shows us the percentage of vaccinated vs. Non-vaccinated that are testing positive each day? I beleive many vaccinated are testing positive and spreading the virus but the CDC does not want to show us the data.
So even when someone is vaccinated, the body may still get infected by the virus, but the accelerated immune response will respond to the infection before it has a chance to bloom and do real damage (and/or cause you to become a significant shedder/spreader of virus).
Your comment pasted above is misleading. Vaccinated are still getting very sick and dying. I do agree the vaccine reduces the odds but it is not a guarantee like your comment reads.
Wow, the tolerance expressed here towards others’ beliefs is always so refreshing/s.
@NSL
Your comment: about natural immunity being a joke makes me wonder if you even know what natural immunity is. The Isreal study showed natural immunity from antibodies provided better protection than the vaccines. I have not seen any other studies that say the opposite. If natural immunity is such a joke then why did Fauci say just a few weeks ago that he doesn’t have an answer for why natural immunity is not being considered and he said it should be researched more. I do beleive in the vaccines but where is the scientific evidence that shows people with natural immunity need the vaccine?
I think Parker is secretly applauding this move by Biden. Any move by Parker would end up in contract negotiations.
It allows the airline to replace senior pilots with fresh hires at the bottom of the scale. This will also improve morale with the remaining pilots as they move up the ranks of seniority.
This will save the company millions.
As Don Carty used to say, this is a home run.
I consider my vaccine status (and other medical information that I do not wish to voluntarily share) to be a highly personal and private matter between myself andmy doctors, my close immediate family and it is NO ONE else’s business.
Vaccine mandates implicitly presume that those who do not take the shot are somehow dangerous even though not everyone who doesn’t get the shot gets infected. Furthermore some who are “fully vaccinated” also get infected and spread the infection to others. Look at Israel for a case in point.
It seems there is an implicit presumption that those who don’t get the shot are somehow bad or dangerous people when in many cases that is simply not the case.
Since the rollout of the covid shot has happened faster than any other shot it is understandable that many people would be leery of taking the shot due to the simple fact that due to the timeline of events it is literally impossible for long term clinical trials to take place.
For the government to mandate that people take the shot as well as threaten to essentially bankrupt employers who don’t comply is a high level case of bullying.
That the authorities, whether it be the civil authorities or employers, would bully people into taking a shot against their better judgment, due to the fact that it has been rushed into production, is highly reprehensible.
Perhaps religious exemptions will be the way to go for those who don’t want the vaccine. AA employees based in PHX could join Apologia Church which has a religious exemption letter on its website. (www.apologiachurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Medical-Statement.pdf) AA could just rubber stamp any requests for a religious exemption.
@Jase,
I didn’t insinuate anything about your vax status. I’m glad you made a sensible choice.
We both believe in personal choice, unless your choice harms others. Then we depart on that belief.
Here’s one report from CDC with data on hospitalizations (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e3.htm#F1_down), both vaccinated (breakthrough cases) and unvaccinated. The link goes right to the table showing the numbers of vaccinated (breakthrough cases) and unvaccinated in the hospitals over time. The next chart shows the different vaccine effectivenesses on the different cohorts measured, and the mRNA vaccines are all well over 90% effective in keeping the fully vaccinated out of the hospital. The data shows the mRNA vaccines to more than decimate your chances of hospitalization. Start at the top to see exactly the geographic area included and the age groups included (a focus on those who were vaccinated first where we have the most data, our seniors).
I only spoke about hospitalizations, with serious symptoms like difficulty breathing, because that’s what matters – not those who test positive with no symptoms or minimal symptoms (e.g., a stuffy nose, no big deal). There is lots of anecdotal evidence of people testing positive with no symptoms or minimal symptoms. This is to be expected based on the mechanism of how the vaccine works. And those that are hospitalized with the vaccine may also have (anecdotally) underlying conditions (e.g. diabetes). More study should be done and reported on those groups to understand the impact. I agree with your comment that “many vaccinated are testing positive and spreading the virus” although it should be better documented than “many,” but it isn’t (yet). That’s why I (fully vaccinated too) still wear a mask when entering so called “indoor congregate settings” and everyone in an indoor congregate setting should. In a trip last month to mountain bike in western SD my wife and I were the only people wearing masks in such indoor settings (e.g. to pick up takeout food). Most people don’t seem to understand that you should wear a surgical mask to protect others from you, not the other way around. Surgeons wear masks to protect the patient from the surgeon, not the other way around. If you want to protect yourself, wear an N-95, which are thankfully easy to get these days.
If anyone thought my comment (the one you pasted) was implying that the vaccine was 100% effective, then as you said, please understand that this is NOT the case. The vaccine just improves your odds of avoiding hospitalization by a factor of 10 or more. Well worth it from an individual or public health perspective.
Jase, Thanks for adding to the conversation. (I wish I could say that for everybody!) —SE_Rob
Jase, you are so right and make so much sense! and you are one of the very few vaccinated people who says what you just said and I applaud you for this. Wish every body would stop and think this way too!
WELL SAID!
Dale, I totally agree with you. But it’s kind of funny how many people that have been vaccinated think they are “bullet proof”!
Like you said, Israel is proof that this really does not work! It is better to have “natural immunity” than being jabbed with this “experimental thing!
@Jase, I did not intend to insinuate that you’re not fully vaccinated. I’m glad to hear you made a wise choice.
We both believe in personal choice, until your choice harms other people or property. Then we depart in that belief.
I don’t think it’s important how many of the fully vaccinated test positive (and might be spreading the virus). It’s to be expected based on how the vaccines work. And the spreading problem is easily mitigated by properly wearing a surgical mask when in indoor congregate settings. (A surgeon wears a mask to protect the patient, not the other way around.) I live in NYC where mostly everyone wears a mask indoors, vaccinated or not. Last month when my wife and I went mountain biking in western South Dakota we were surprised that almost nobody wore masks indoors, in supermarkets, souvenir stores, or even the staff in the Rapid City Marriott Courtyard (in violation of Marriott policy). We wore ours when indoors.
What matters is how many fully vaccinated people get symptoms so bad that they end up in a hospital. Here’s the CDC data: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e3.htm#F1_down . The link goes right to the table showing the hospitalized vaccinated vs non-vaccinated for seniors in the states that reported the data. The next table shows the calculated vaccine efficacy for this data (well over 90% for the fully vaccinated using the mRNA vaccines). Roll up to the beginning to get the full story. In the discussion, they make clear that no accounting was made for underlying conditions (e.g. diabetes) which tend to make the symptoms of COVID worse (vaccinated or not) or or the fact that a lot of elderly in this study were very fragile to begin with, living in long-term-care-facilities.
You’re right about my comment, it could be misleading. Let me be clear, I was talking about what happens over 90% of the time according to the CDC data. And you’re right, being fully vaccinated is not a guarantee, but it’s way better than not getting vaccinated. Your chance are more than 10 times less of getting symptoms that will land you in a hospital (or the morgue).
Bottom line, I believe that since it’s way better to be fully vaccinated, for both the individual and for public health, it’s still flawed judgement to not get vaccinated and risk hospitalization and death vs the unknown long-term risks of the vaccine. Choosing to not get the vaccine is the kind of flawed judgement that has no place on or around a commercial aircraft.
I looked hard and could not find any data to support cardiovascular or nerve or any other negative effects of the vaccine outside of the initial risk of anaphylactic shock which is easily managed by hanging out for 15 minutes at the vaccination site after the injection. If someone has a peer reviewed paper (not a post on Facebook with 100K+ likes) showing such effects for the COVID mRNA vaccines, please share it.
I appreciate your adding to the conversation Jase. Can’t say that about everyone!
Cheers!
Love the click-bait title.
The answer is simple: They go straight to hell, which is where, as the Bible teaches, selfish people end up.