A reader who spent 10 weeks in Europe last year misses being back and wonders whether any travel – let alone international travel – will be possible until there’s a vaccine.
There are actually two issues here.
- when will restrictions lift to make it easier to travel abroad
- when will it be prudent to do so.
I would have little concern visiting Taiwan or Vietnam right now. They don’t want visitors, for understandable reasons, there’s very little spread of the virus – it’s contained – so why risk bringing it into the country?
Countries will open up at different paces, rather than all at once. I do think it will be possible to visit Europe next year. Whether it’s advisable will depend on several factors, but the biggest is age and pre-existing health conditions. Those put someone at greatest risk if they come down with COVID-19.
At some point the virus may run its course and become less common. Enough people will have gotten it perhaps this year and next, with enough of those people retaining some immunity, that it doesn’t spread nearly as effectively. One reason this virus spreads so easily is there isn’t much pre-existing immunity among many populations precisely because it’s new. The pandemic could subside on its own – after wreaking much devastation – but that would make travel possible again without a vaccine.
In the nearer term there are several treatments in the pipeline as well, probably coming late in this year and beginning of next, and these could make a real difference in patient outcomes. We won’t have to fear the new coronavirus so much if we know how to treat it, and hospital stays shorten as well reducing the burden on health care (so that each patient can get the care that they need).
Regardless it may not even be a vaccine that’s needed to feel comfortable traveling. A vaccine may not be 100% effective. What if it were only 30% effective? That would be enough to reduce the spread of the virus and make it less dangerous, even if it didn’t serve as absolute protection for any individual. And where someone got it, the vaccine might reduce still reduce severity.
The question about when to travel is mainly about rate of spread and how challenging it is if you catch it. The answer to the first will vary regionally, and the answer to the second will vary for each individual.
For those in an at risk demographic I certainly wouldn’t expect international travel this year.
Gary you are 100 pct right
As soon as I am allowed to visit my family in israel without being quarantined, which will happen in about 2-3 weeks, I am getting on a plane
I know many, including readers Of this blog, will say it is irresponsible, blah blah but everybody have the right to take what perceived as calculated risk, and for me, this situation has very low risk
And now, drumroll, let the condescending asses reply…
What you refer to in one of your points is herd immunity, which is where enough people are immune to prevent the virus from spreading. Before commenting on it you should consult scientists, because your conclusion runs counter to scientific study. To have herd immunity you need around 80% of the people to have immunity. However, with coronavirus we are looking at a maximum of around 20% even in the worst-case scenario of the worst-infected places. There will be no herd immunity until there is a vaccine. Please consult scientific work before giving health/scientific advice. Science isn’t based on what you want to have happen (despite what our president thinks). It is very disconcerting to see you making scientific proclamations while ignoring all the relevant scientific conclusions out there.
@Jeff
You too have the right to pick your scientist, since they can not agree between them anyway, hence the advice that we all need to make the choice according to what we feel is a calculated risk
I have to agree with @Jeff, for all the reasons he ably stated.
For a cautionary and admittedly anecdotal article by someone who recently flew, see this excellent Atlantic piece:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/05/is-flying-safe-coronavirus/611335/
Going to Europe is not more or less risky than going grocery shopping or renting a condo at the shore so I dont understand all this safety talk. We’re going in July and don’t care at all what people think.
@Jeff this “To have herd immunity you need around 80% of the people to have immunity” is not correct. There are varying estimates, most much lower, but if the super spreaders contract the virus first, as likely their immunity gets us there with a substantially lower threshold.
Regardless I write “enough people will have gotten it perhaps this year and next” and you say “with coronavirus we are looking at a maximum of around 20% even in the worst-case scenario of the worst-infected places.” These two are not in conflict at all!
New York City may be over 20%, however that is *now* and I’m writing about cumulative spread over the rest of this year and next year, do you really think it’s implausible that we get to 40% (assuming superspreaders) or 60% (without that assumption) by the end of *next year*?
@Skaner: We all need to do our own risks assessments to some degree. But I don’t think “risky” means what you think it means. Contact with many hundreds or even thousands of people whose paths you’d cross at airports, on planes and while in Europe is considerably riskier than it is with the far more limited numbers you’d encounter at a supermarket.
But if you’re sure that the risks are the same, would you waive any right to covid-19 medical care while on the road in Europe or for two weeks after returning home?
No guarantee we will ever have a vaccine and certainly no guarantee it will be anytime soon. Different I know but, as an example, Ebola took five years to develop. We need to be very careful about rolling out a vaccine. RNA viruses are unstable, they mutate with the most fit surviving. The mRNA vaccine method being evaluated by most labs is a whole new frontier and if the phases of development are truncated by the “emergency need for the vaccine” there could be a whole lot of hurt out there over time.
In the airport now (again), flying around the country.
It’s zero drama.
Seriously. We don’t need articles pondering if ‘it’s safe or not’. It’s the safest way to travel.
I never ever say this, but, at this point, anyone who doesn’t understand that is just an idiot.
As more and more data is coming out, we’re seeing thousands of doctors start to speak out: this thing is about as deadly as the flu.
Read the front page of the Financial Times.
Sweden (you’ve all heard to that country), has basically… done nothing, and they are approaching herd immunity. So, they won’t have a second wave.
Their state epidemiologist basically said, what the rest of the world is doing is crazy – we’re just copying what the Chinese, without any critical thinking.
It’s worth a read.
BizPacReview (not the same caliber as Financial Times, but still), has a cool story about another doctor giving a speech about the same thing.
We’re locking up healthy people?? Our modern society has never ever done that.
We’re shutting down the economy? Our society has NEVER done that.
And, as the data pours in…. it looks like Covid-19 is about as fatal… as, you guessed it… the flu.
Also, more data coming in about how many people are dying due to suicide.. domestic violence.
I think the latest data said 175,000 will likely die because of the stress of this.
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I called this in February. And more and more high level medical schools, epidemiologist and data are showing it.
But, it’s as safe as traveling during flu season – with the same (almost zero) risks associated.
Seriously. The myth has been debunked guys.
This isn’t ebola, this isn’t some deadly disease. It’s a strain of the flu.
The sooner we let it spread, the sooner we can all stop talking about it.
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Gary – you gotta get on a plane and stop this stuff.
I’m a fan of yours, but you’ve GOT to take a stand.
Get on a plane, fly around. It’s really really really zero drama. Seriously.
The boy has cried wolf, I get it. It’s time for you to figure out, there is nothing scary going on at all in any airport (aside from them blaring CNN at full volume still. Ha)
@George
“Seriously. The myth has been debunked guys.
This isn’t ebola, this isn’t some deadly disease. It’s a strain of the flu.”
So wrong, in so many ways.
A flu season can kill 60,000 per year. C-19 knocked that out in just over a month, and that’s with most of the USA doing their best to prevent the spread.
But let’s not argue now… we will see the results of “opening the economy” in about a month and a half.
@Jeff
Nice use of the appeal to authority logical fallacy. Which scientists should we listen to? The ones you agree with I’m sure. Well since you’re not a scientist, we shouldn’t listen to you.
@Zebraitis: Thanks for the good post. You beat me to the punch in debunking @George’s…well, let’s be kind and call it wishful thinking.
I’d just add that the official figure of 60,000 dead in a month, and a total death toll of 75,000 and counting, really underestimates the number of people killed by the virus in the USA. The key figure is actually excess deaths: how many people are dying in a given period compared to previous years. That figure include the official death toll, but also folks whose deaths weren’t attributed to covid-19 even though they died of it and other folks who died of something else because they couldn’t get or were afraid to seek medical care because of cove-19. If excess deaths are used for the calculation, we’re already well over 100,000…and counting.
Gary is looking in the right direction
There are so many avenues for improvement and middle ground
The hurdle to intl travel is less about personal tolerance than border restrictions. Look forward to returning to the skies sooner than many think.
Ah … Gary’s being an epidemiologist again.
Folks – don’t take health advice from a credit card salesman.
Immunity around COVID-19 is far from clear in the scientific/medical community.
@Bob show me one respected scientist who will make a robust claim that there is no resistance to the virus after someone has recovered from it? The debates largely are around how long it will last, and how robust it will be against potential mutations. I’m not making any claims about long-lasting immunity. As more people have had the virus, with some ongoing resistance for some period of time, that will mitigate spread.
All of your comments cast aspersions at me, I do not understand why you continue to read most everything that I write.
@Steve
since most countries in Europe have lower numbers than some states here one could argue that it’s safer to go to Europe than staying here. Don’t compare current travel/movement restrictions to what will be in July. Once Memorial Day comes around none will care about this anymore, attention span is short these days. People didn’t complain and revolt earlier since the lockdown happened in March and April and the weather sucked anyway. Apart from Easter there was not much to do but summer is a whole different story.
Gary I have enjoyed your blog up till now. But you are right in that rather than cast aspersions at your motives in trying to justify flying I should and will stop reading your site. Not that you care, but I will not be back.
Like a lot of your readers, I’m a “let’s hop to Hong Kong for the weekend,” sort of guy. Crossing borders in the coming months, for me, isn’t something I’m too excited about, though.
There’s one area that falls in both your categories of restrictions and prudence that needs to be considered. What happens if you get sick on the road?
How many of us have felt run down and a tad feverish after a long flight… or at the end of a grueling trip in an unfamiliar country? Even a run of the mill cold or flu while traveling internationally could create some potentially unpleasant next steps, no? A q-tip up your nose, for sure. Depending on the country, where would you end up? Back to your hotel, or to a quarantine facility? When would you be able to return home to the US? A week or two or more after symptoms end? If you are unlucky enough to be COVID+ on the trip – even with mild symptoms – or catch a cold, or a nasty cough from allergies, things could get very unpleasant very quickly these days even if your illness is mild.
notice that @bob is now commenting as @dave
@Zebraitis and @Steve
You guys are on the right track! I like it.
Using data to make a judgement.
Let’s follow the logic, see if class understands how math works.
(let me get this out of the way, I assume you’ll deny your own math, because, you don’t want to believe the truth)
So, in the world, about 160,000 people die a day.
In 6 months, it’s about 30,000,000
In 6 months, Coronavirus has been attributed to the death of 300,000?
I’m not scientist, but 300,000 into 30,000,000 is… 1%
So, 1% of all global deaths in the last 6 months – have been because of coronavirus.
Ok, so, that’s really really small. Obviously, you can do that math too.
But, you are right, we should be looking at how many ADDITIONAL people died over how many normally die.
Let’s play a game, and say 100% of all coronavirus deaths are NEW deaths. Those people would not have died from *anything* aside from Coronavirus. All 300,000 people in nursing homes, with severe existing conditions – would still be alive. All of them. (you can see me rolling my eyes from here)
So, 300,000 NEW deaths.
Would raise the death rate by… wait for it…1.11%
So, if ever single solitary CV death was brand new, and never ever would have happened….
Then CV is a rounding error in the normal annual death rate.
A *rounding* error.
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But, now let’s add in all the collateral damage..
If you believe the United Nations, a few hundred thousands children will die because they will not get a measles vaccine now. Because we shut the world down.
75,000 more people will die of suicides and depression.
Crime, poverty, all that, going up. (I was in the airport just now, and even CNN was doing a special on increasing suicides. CNN, the most liberal news source since NPR)
So, if we add all those up, our actions have doubled the death rate that CV was doing itself.
AND, we didn’t build herd immunity (unlike Sweden, which has basically done nothing)… so, we will have another wave of this.
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The best answer WOULD have been, to do nothing. Like every other influenza pandemic in history.
Have the vulnerable people take precautions, and let the rest of the world go to work.
What you guys have advocated for, and gotten from the world – is at least double the deaths, and misery for hundreds of millions of people.
It’s just math.
Not opinion, not bias. Just math.
We made the wrong call, and we’re ALL suffering for it.
Pitch fork social media, a mass media that makes money advertising, and a government that is so fixated on placating people for re-election – none of them can take a stand for what is correct.
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So, again, sorry guys, math and science prove you are 100% wrong :/
I am living in Western Europe right now. Spain, Italy, France are the worst affected in the EU. The EU Commission recommends to all EU countries to extend the travel ban for foreigners entering the EU(if I am right till June ’20). I do not understand why some readers here woould like to travel to the EU in July, August, September or even this year etc..?? Would it be better for all if the pandemic is undercontrol and flying is safer again. Do you think the EU locals are fond of seeing Americans travelling to their country and probably spreading the virus locally. I like to travel this year to the US to visit my family but as they have told me, it is not worth it to be infected or bring the infection from Europe, whichever comes first. It is highly depressing but I dearly hope a vaccine will soon be found for the sake of all!
@bob/dave
Happy trails to you
@ATL
You can also get diarrea in India, and be in trouble, but people flock there
@George
Brilliant analysis and spot on, but you will not be able to convince most sheep
@ Gary – As someone who deals with this in the military, I would offer up some thoughts that I have not seen yet.
1. This is a highly individual decision that should be strongly based upon your own (and your family members) comorbidities. You frankly should not be taking any chances if you have hypertension, diabetes, etc.
2. As experienced with the Spanish Flu, summer temps and sunshine will likely lead to a suppression of virus spread this summer, but this will come back with the cold and flu season. This is going to lull many into a false sense of safety and thinking travel can resume.
3. Antibodies for cold and flu only last for 6 months. 15% of the colds we get are from one of the four common strains of Coronavirus, so a good chance for similar limited immunity. Having antibodies does not mean you will not be vulnerable to a future infection.
Your friend, Glenn
@Glenn I think that’s all consistent with what I’ve written, including today https://viewfromthewing.com/many-of-you-should-no-longer-not-travel/
Although you have greater confidence in the seasonality than I do – I *think* there is a seasonal element to it but I do not know to what degree. As for antibodies, the length of time immunity lasts varies quite a bit by person and viral infection.
@George…Absolutely, 100% correct. I’ve been saying the same thing for the past two months. The information is out there that completely debunks the baloney being presented by the MSM. Unfortunately, it requires people to do independent research, apply brain power and understand that, yes, our “leaders” are capable of this level of evil. It’s refreshing to see that there are others who understand this is a scam-demic.
We should not be setting policy or making personal decisions about when we can travel again based on the “until we have a vaccine” factor.
There is absolutely no guarantee that we will ever have a vaccine for SARS-CoV-2. How many effective vaccines have been developed for coronaviruses, even though they have been infecting humans for millennia? Zero.
Yes, it is true that other coronaviruses recently have not been as lethal, so not as much effort was made. But recall that HIV, another RNA virus, was 100% lethal (before therapy) and intense effort to develop a vaccine has been underway for decades, with no success.
This virus is going to be with us for a long time and we are going to have to adjust without counting on a silver bullet that may or may not be available at some indeterminate time in the future.
Or paraphrasing the old carnival barkers “You buys your ticket and you takes your chances’.
@George
If that gets you through the day, great.
But keep in mind that your back of the napkin 1% is based on our best efforts stop spred via isolation. That 1 % is everyone trying everything they can to make sure we are all still here today.
Now the US will be opening up, and folks like you that think its the flu will happily go about you business.
And that’s great.
But in the last week, there are 3 C-19 positives in the white house staff.
So, if it can’t be stopped there, then how will it be stopped once isolation ends and pandemic deniers become carriers and victims?
But here’s the thing: I really hope that I’m wrong. I hope I am SO wrong. I am humble, and will admit that I could be.
But from what I can tell, a virus, that doesn’t have any way to stop it today, doesn’t care. It just needs the next airway to multiply. And a bunch of people bunched togeather just increases those chances to spread.
The math you should look into is the spread of a pandemic, once unchecked. Right now. It looks like it could be 40 million, but that only if 7 billion get it. So let’s hope we only lose 20 million.
Time will tell.
But if that’s what we choose to do in the US, we really won’t need to worry… most of the world will close their borders to us.
@George
It’s not 1%- it’s 2x. Coronavirus is now the leading cause of death in the US, attributed to ~1/3 of the deaths daily.
And that’s with most people locked down. Raise the number of people out and about and traveling, and the death rate will be running about 2x the normal rates.
So you are probably looking at excess of 2M deaths in the US over the 12 month period from April 2020 to March 2021- say 5,000 a day, including all the unreported deaths.
In a population of 328M, that’s less than 1% of the people. But it’s not flu, which kills ~15K a year in the US on the equivalent metric to Coronavirus deaths so far (60K deaths is the exterpolated number, counting all the people that died at home or with other conditions, contributed by the flu).
You pay your money, you take your chances- I just booked a flight in Sept to take my daughter to college. But we’ll wear masks, wipe down things and stay away from people. And I’ll be ready to go through a 14 day quarantine when I get home. Any countries that worked hard to get “clean” (eg, Israel, where the cases are down to 20-50 a day) is not going to let in foreign travellers without a quarantine or a vaccine for a year or more from now.
For us senior citizens, international trips are definitely a no-go unless there is a vaccine. It’s just too risky right now, Assuming there will be a vaccine, airlines and hotels will slowly recover but I think the cruise industry is sunk.
Over 200,000 people flew yesterday in the USA. The most in a month. And almost triple the amount from the lows.
It is growing almost daily now, and certainly weekly. Exciting!
I did a t-con yesterday, and it was busier than ever. It’s heartening to see normal Americans not listening to the scare mongers that post here telling others what to do 🙂
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@ ThatsNotATrollinMyMamasBasement
You can’t just make numbers up and expect to be taken seriously.
Please show your work, link to data sets, explain your logic.
Most people say things like: ‘omg it’s exponential’ without having any idea what that means.
When you say ‘2x’ – what are you talking about, what data are you using.
You have to use facts and science, not what you want to believe that fits your political agenda.
There is nothing I see, or any real data that shows CV is 2x anything (except a 100% overhyped influenza strain)
Show us the data you have. I’m always happy to change my mind based on facts, unlike most people. But I haven’t seen a single fact that remotely corroborates what you just said.
It really does not matter what your personal opinion is. Most of the world listen to scientists and just look at the numbers. The situation in US is not contained, and the numbers of COVID-19 are still going up. What the world hears and sees is our “Dear Leader” recommending people to drink or inject disinfectant and how everyday Americans are still debating if they should wear a mask going into a Costco. I don’t want to disappoint most of you but the world is not going to open its border to us this summer, especially many of them work very hard to contain Covid-19 after months of strict “shelter in place” policies. Taiwan is still closed to all foreigners at least till early June, as well as Hong Kong, which has no local cases for 18 days straight. Australia and New Zealand have already announced their intent to close their borders at least till early 2021. They will form some local regional alliance to allow some travels within those COVID-19 free zones in the region, but I can’t imagine them opening doors to American tourists.
There are basically a mandatory 14 day quarantine policy on many countries and many of them are also doing COVID-19 tests on the spot. Even if you are tested negative, you have to stay quarantined at a hotel or a particular spot for 14 days. Do you want to travel if you have to waste first 14 days sitting in a random hotel? Also even if you are able to travel internationally, you are going to enter a new world, where your temperature will be taken everywhere, and wearing masks will be required.
Facts are stubborn, and international travel is definitely not happening for average American this summer. Even if you don’t think 3000 daily death toll is a big deal, other countries will disagree. 130K infected with 78K death with an upward trend… Plus we are still banning Europeans from coming to the country and I don’t think EU will forget that fact for a long time.
I am over 60, diabetic and high BP. I have cancelled all trips through May of next year and am wondering about trips booked ( hotels but not air) next May. To avoid cancellation penalties I will need to decide soon.i expect to not travel till a antibody treatment or vaccine is developed. Fir someone used to 4 international trips a year it’s quite a come down.
Wow, just wow! Let’s parrot Fox News make believe reality and then state that Covid-19 is just like the flu. Per CDC, 34,200 Americans died from the flu in 2018/2019 flu season. We are just over 4 months into 2020, and we have over double that amount of deaths from Covid-19. Go on keep believing that fantasy. It is just what the rich and big business what you to do. Just go out, now! NOW!!!
@george
> We’re locking up healthy people?? Our modern society has never ever done that.
> We’re shutting down the economy? Our society has NEVER done that.
Our country has definitely locked up healthy people before this.
In an effort to reduce the spread of venereal disease, the U. S. Public Health Service, with the cooperation of state and local health officials, set up a national program of venereal disease quarantine hospitals. These facilities were known as rapid treatment centers, and by 1944 there were 47 of them in operation. The initial impetus for the development of this national network of hospitals was to quarantine infected prostitutes and other so-called promiscuous females who were deemed to be a threat to the health of servicemen and essential war workers. Using quarantine powers of the Public Health Service and the states, government officials forcibly detained women infected with syphilis or gonorrhea in these centers and treated them for their disease.
You can also read more at “The Atlantic” in an article titled “During World War II, Sex Was a National-Security Threat”.
@George. It’s only a matter of time before your infected and die.
Interesting that so many appreciate the technology needed to fly around the world, but then so casually reject the science of epidemiology. Some of you sound like the President- ‘me me me’.
I won’t be surprised if many countries ban Americans this summer…
@Rog It’s only a matter time until we all die. 😉
I just canceled our annual vacation in England. One reason is that a major motivator for the trip is visiting my father-in-law. As he is in his eighties, it’s not a safe time for us to visit. I know that we could make the trip without visiting him, but being realistic, what would we be going for? Eating carry out in the hotel room and shopping online is not my idea of a vacation. If we can’t browse in record shops, go to the theatre, listen to live music, and go to our favorite restaurants, why exactly are we going?
Since numbers were bounced around, these should matter:
We have 4% of the world’s population, 30% of all cases and 25% of all deaths.
Our current response is making us the worst outbreaks worldwide because we have no tracing in place to try to isolate the virus. And with us “opening up” we have no testing restrictions in place to insure that infected do not go out and about.
C-19 is opportunistic as any virus. C-19 doesn’t care if you believe it exists or not.
I’m an AA ExecPlat. Can’t wait to get on another plane. Have 1.6MM banked, (not to mention Marriott, Hilton and AmEx points)… and am ready to see the world (again).
I can wait. I
@ George Read the front page of the Financial Times.
Sweden (you’ve all heard to that country), has basically… done nothing, and they are approaching herd immunity. So, they won’t have a second wave.
Herd immunity. Hardly, with only not even 20%. And the death rate is steadily climbing. It is currently at 15%, as opposed to less than half that rate in both Norway and Finland.
With all this debate about whether or not you should fly to Europe, have you ever even considered that Europeans do NOT want Americans to come calling for another year. With limited testing and virtually no tracing, coupled with a high death rate, who even wants Americans at this point.
@JohnB – If you’re watching fox news, or CNN, or CNBC, I simply have nothing to say to you. You aren’t going to believe facts. All those mainstream media outlets are sensationalist yellow journalism. Sorry dude.
“Per CDC, 34,200 Americans died from the flu in 2018/2019 flu season.”
I thought you said this wasn’t the flu? So, why compare it to flu numbers?
Listen, if you don’t understand how data works, I can’t help you.
Arguably, the *only* thing that matters is, are *more* people dying than normally die?
That is, really, the heart of the matter.
All that data says no.
I can’t make you understand the power of large numbers. Nor can I help you to understand how facts work.
You can tell me CDC statistics all day long… but, until you realize you’re counting the wrong thing… I just can’t help you be any smarter. I’m not trying to be disrespectful to you, but, it’s like trying to teach a 3 year old algebra… it just… it doesn’t seem like you’re going to understand how math works.
You are probably a person who says ‘omg, cases are going up!!!’
Which is, of course true.. because.. well, by definition, the number of cases can never go down…
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Listen, I get that you all are scared.
When your mom tells you there is a monster in your closet, and you should go to bed… you go to bed. It’s not till you get older that you realize… wait… maybe I should check for myself.
I get that people don’t want to see people die.
I get that is is a LOT easier to take the position of ‘omg, shut everything down for 10 years until no one ever dies again’
I get it.
It’s born out of some innate compassion people have for others – which is good.
It’s also, unfortunately, the reason you guys are all posting on blog comments, and not titans of industry nor in positions of power.
Because, you’re focusing on the wrong thing.
You’re hysterically yelling that the sky is falling, while, the data actually says, uhm, the sky is just where it has always been.
It’s sort of like terrorism
After 9/11, did you know that more people died falling off ladders that year?
I think more people drowned in bath tubs, I forget all the data sets.
Yet… somehow, ladders kept being used, and people still take baths.
ONE of those things (terrorism) is SCARY. Omg, it’s brutal, it’s NEW and UNKNOWN.
It can be packaged and sold to you on the TV and you will WATCH. Because, WOW, TERRORISM.
But, the reality was, ladders are more dangerous to Americans.
Yet, we don’t have a TSA for ladder use. We didn’t ban bathtubs.
See, the goal isn’t to reduce the harm to humans. You can decide what the real goal is, but, clearly, it’s not to save lives.
The *reason* CV is such a big deal – is because… we made it a big deal.
Pitch fork / mob mentality (like you are seeing here, in the comments) – means people DEMAND ACTION!
So, what do the people in power do to placate the angry people? They DO SOMETHING.
Even if that something is stupid.
Because, people forget what they did. They just want someone to do SOMETHING.
It’s the same ways that civil liberties are eroded and freedom decreases everywhere.
The people demand the chains to be tighter around their ankles – because they are scared.
I get that a lot of people don’t understand how the world works, and they believe what the media tell them. I get that you all want to save people, and you are willing to sacrifice your own freedoms because you’re confused. You default to ‘SAFETY!’ like a kid on a college campus who doesn’t want their opinion challenged. They need a safe place…
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All I am saying, coldly, but correctly, is that, so far the overreaction to this flu like virus is causing multiples of the harm that the virus itself causes.
In addition, the death rate from it is so low, that it doesn’t move the needle on annual deaths.
But… you know a guy, and his grandma died… so you throw facts out and demand ACTION.
The problem is, you’re all focused on the wrong thing.
Our country printed close to $4T in magic money to hand out to pay for this.
The bank was robbed while you all demanded safety.
And your thunderous applause in the face of lockdowns and bad actions… well, I think we all know to what sound the empire of Rome finally dies…
Alan –
No, I don’t care if Europeans want me to visit or not.
Do you know why?
Because, people are not groups – they are individuals. When YOU stop putting people into groups, and realize we are all adults who can make our own choices… then you start to show respect for people, instead of treating them all the same.
I own part of European business, and everyone there sure wants travel to kick off as soon as possible.
3 people from my staff have multiple vacations book to Europe in the next 4 months.
And you know what? The people I talk to in Europe, and the rest of the world SURE DO want tourists and tourist dollars.
So, uhm, until you realize not everyone is the same.
Not everyone fits into the little groups that you want them too
People are free
They are individuals.
Some people believe in ghosts
Some believe in Freedom
Some believe in nothing and want to be told what to do.
There are a LOT of people, and Europe has millions of people.
If you think they are ALL thinking what YOU think… listen man, I can’t help you. Logic just isn’t your thing.
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I’m traveling, ever week. I just got to a bed and breakfast here. They are VERY happy to have me.
I get thank yous everywhere I go. People want money so they can feed their families.
Not everyone shares your opinion. In fact, more likely than not, about HALF OF THE WORLD disagrees with you.
Weird how data works huh?
Holy sh!t, George! You are a machine. I can’t tell you how refreshing it is to find others who fully understand the nature of this scam-demic. Your posts are excellent and you do a great job of destroying the ridiculous narrative advanced by the MSM. I can’t help wondering if and when the current non-thinkers will wake up and realize they’ve been sold a bill of goods. And more importantly, admit they were wrong. Not bloody likely!
@George and @James N have it right. We can all hide in our Mom’s basement or get on with life. The idea of an effective vaccine before the economy is toast is an illusion. It’s likely there will never be an effective vaccine. On a long enough time horizon we will either get it and recover, or get it and die. No amount of testing or contact tracing will change that fact. It is interesting that I talk to people 65+ (like myself) and most are willing to get on with life…the sooner the better. The millennials spend most of their time being scolds on the internet while occupying a basement somewhere. I’m an ExP with 3MM miles in the bank (and another 8MM at Amex) and ready to travel.
I’m in the 60+ age group also. Bottom line is it all comes down to personal responsibility. If you’re scared of someone giving “it” to you, decide how you want to handle that dilemma. Stay home or go out with a mask on and wash your hands incessantly. (BTW, when are the commercials going to start that advise us to call an attorney because we’ve used too much anti-bacterial stuff and we’ve wrecked our immune system enough to warrant suing someone, anyone?). If you’re feeling sick, stay home so you don’t infect others. I don’t want to spend what is left of my life worrying a about dying. Sorry, I want to see my grandchildren, I want my children to be able to make a living so they don’t have to come live with me permanently, I want to go to some places I haven’t yet seen – all before I do what EVERY single person is going to do – die. No, I don’t want to die from the virus but I’m going to die from something and that something is going to be, at the very least, boredom, if I don’t begin to live life again soon.
It’s now just amusing seeing all the Hoaxer / Deep State / Don’t Trust The MSM!!! trolls go back and forth
@UA-NYC
It’s a miracle that your brain has enough synaptic activity to let you string 18 words together!
Congratulations!
Not only is your argument persuasive, it’s also grammatically sound…..
Someone get that man a participation trophy!
He won the internet today!
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Obviously, it’s too hard for you to use punctuation, but, you must realize how silly your sentence sounds compared to people using facts and logic.
You might not agree with them, but, posting something like ‘uh, lol, huh huh, CNN is always right’…
That doesn’t help anyone think your side of the story is the right one here.
Just makes you seem like… the… exact… sheep… we’re all talking about here….
So, if you want to contribute to society, or even a serious discussion, you might try harder than ‘lol’.
@Howard – when the trolls decry science, when they say “it’s just another flu!”, when they basically claim every single news source is the MSM!!! and thus not to be trusted (and of course, they never explain where they get THEIR so-called “information” from), when they dip into low-grade racism like a few repeated posters here…yeah, there’s not much credibility there.
At this point, with zero credibility & responsibility at the Federal level, it’s the Governors & Mayors, along with front line workers and scientists (in partnership with key businesses), that will begin the process of slowly getting out of this. Is that too “sheep-like” for you?
@Howard…Keep it up! Individuals like UA-NYC never offer anything other than an opinion based on something they read. They’re simply incapable of doing research, applying facts and logic and forming an independent position. They perfectly demonstrate the term “useful idiot”.
@James N – give us one source of actual information you believe. One time. That’s all. The “it’s all a hoax! It’s a plandemic!” diatribes are just pathetic at this point.