Frontier Airlines is reorganizing its schedules so that planes do more out-and-back trips, instead of flying all over their system. That way, when a plane breaks down or there’s bad weather in a city, the effect is localized instead of creating delays and cancellations for them all over the country.
More than 90% of the time a plane will return to base at night under this plan, which is also great for overnight maintenance.
Last year was the second-worst U.S. airline for on-time operations so they need to do something, and this makes sense. But their flight attendants are furious about the change.
Normally you hear about grueling trips, where flight attendants complain they’re gone for too long. You might think not having to overnight in a hotel in a different city each day would be great – returning home at night and sleeping in your own bed.
However Frontier Airlines flight attendants are complaining about this.
- They give up tax-free per diems when they’re on the road (per diems on one-day trips are tax-reportable because they aren’t traveling overnight away from home)
- If they don’t actually live in the city where they’re “based” they’re stuck with having responsibility for lodging in that city. Instead of, say, commuting to Denver and being on the company dime from the moment they arrive to when they fly to their actual home they need to pay for lodging in Denver
- And they have to commute to work (the airport) and back each day on their own dime, instead of commutes being on shuttles to and from a hotel arranged by their employer.
In other words, the problem for flight attendants is they’re being asked to transition to a job that’s more like what most other people have – live in the city where they report to work, and commute each day.
This makes sense for the airline but it’s a shift in lifestyle for flight attendants. The move will save the airline money not just from a more reliable operation but also on meals and lodging when they don’t have to put up their flight crews on the road. (It should also be good for pilot rest and therefore safety to have pilots spending the night in their own beds.)
Flight attendants union head Sara Nelson explains AFA-CWA’s formal complaint under the Railway Labor Act. The union says that “[t]he contract provides for a ‘variety of trips in each base'” although it doesn’t explain why different routings and destinations (rather than one day and multi-day) doesn’t accomplish that, and why reducing but not eliminating multi-day trips doesn’t either.
“This is a gross example of corporate greed,” said Sara Nelson, AFA International President. “Management’s turn plan is shifting corporate costs including hotel and transportation directly onto individual Flight Attendants. If Frontier wants to make these changes, they MUST negotiate to reflect the completely new business model.”
According to Frontier Airlines,
We are committed to safety and reliability. Last year we had excessive cancellations primarily as a result of air traffic control delays. In such instances, more passengers are negatively affected by delays and cancellations when aircraft are routed on multi-day trips versus out and back flying which significantly decreases downline impacts.
To better serve our customers we have reduced multi-day trips although we are still operating some for those crew members who prefer them. For the first two months of the year, we are number one in completion for the industry suggesting early results are encouraging.
None of this should be surprising to flight attendants who went to training at a truck stop off the freeway in Wyoming because it’s cheaper than Denver.
(HT: Paddle Your Own Kanoo)
Turns are good for usually FA with children or want to stay close to home. It is not good for those that commute. Frontier is opening more bases so perhaps FA can find a base close to them. Frontier may want to furrow FA or make it difficult to stay which Frontier wants since they are not doing well.
Is a pilot commute from the airport to a home that might be 45 minutes to an hour from the airport really better for pilot safety than a commute from the airport to an airport hotel 15 minutes away?
Personally I find hotel room night stays far more restful than other people around!
@Christopher Raehl – time zones matter
I also what that’s going to do to operations. I’m making an assumption that these turn around will be longer with more hours, and there will be a bigger chance of flight attendants timing out. Also, I don’t remember, but are there different FAA duty times restrictions when you’re at home/base compared to when you’re on a layover?
On the other hand for new flight attendants it would behoove Frontier to do like Allegiant does or how Spirit did for years and hire based on where the crew member would be based. That way they start training with people they’ll work with the most. And I’ve found on Allegiant it has a positive impact on customer service…. You get different sort of candidates who want to be home each night (retirees in some cases) and they work with the same fellow crew members (these bases all tend to be smaller since more of them) and even better camaraderie with customer service agents – even vendored out ones – when they see the same faces every day.
Don’t these changes constitute a decrease in pay for the FA’s? Not actual dollars on their paychecks, but benefits, like food being provided during layovers, etc? That would explain a lot of the backlash from the union.
Gary, please tone down the snarkiness. It does nothing to endear you to your readers. A lot of people don’t have jobs that are “more like what other people have”. Including, perhaps, yourself? FA’s have difficult jobs and put up with a lot of crap. Let’s show a little respect about their being “on the company dime”.
Awww frontier adapting the Ryanair low cost model to cut costs. USA airlines perks getting lost in a blink of an eye
Ah yes, another anti union post from View From The Right Wing.
You seem to forget that being a flight attendant isn’t a “normal job.” You also seem to forget that hundreds or even thousands of Frontier FAs have been hired into a certain kind of work and Frontier is now trying to change that on a whim – chiefly because they can’t figure out how to run a decent operation.
It’s actually not anti-union, and some flight attendants see themselves as giving up something they have now and value. Other flight attendants will like it, but any time there’s a change there’s an opportunity to get something in exchange so it’s likely blown out of proportion too.
There’s little question that this is a good move for the airline to try to become more reliable. It’s a good move for anyone that lives in the city where they’re based and has a family. It’s not great for folks that live away from base – and some of those will decide the job no longer works for them.
Renee Halm and N1120A – boo hoo. They’re talking coke machines. They’re nothing special. Stop whining.
I agree with Walter. You can go home at night and you’re whining because you can’t bank a per diem? Half of them will love it the other half will say it’s the fault of the right wing and anti-union and cry like babies.
Don’t like it get another job.
Does your job make you work while not getting paid like flight attendants do? You can’t compare their job to a normal job. They only get paid when the boarding door is closed. The per diems are part of their compensation. Reducing that is like cutting their pay. So now, not only do they have to commute every day, which for some adds a lot of time to their already long day, but they also are effectively getting a pay cut.
@Jay – flight attendants aren’t working without getting paid. Their union negotiates higher pay rates for flight time rather than spreading out wages over other time. That became an industry standard, until non-union Delta started offering boarding pay. It was something that carried over from legacy carriers where this pay structure benefits senior crew working long haul flights (who spend relatively less time boarding, fewer flights, vs flying) at the expense of junior crew (who operate more short flights and have more boarding time).
And no one is ‘made to’ accept this wage structure, it is disclosed to new hires and the job is voluntary not indentured.
Thank you for this article.
How much did Barry pay you to write this? You have no idea what’s better for a flight attendant? Thank god our union is fighting for this!!! Enjoy your free dinner!
“In other words, the problem for flight attendants is they’re being asked to transition to a job that’s more like what most other people have“
If the pay operated as pay that other people have, then I’m sure flight attendant would have no issue. Unfortunately, that’s not how aviation works. 12 hour duty days for 7 hours of pay is not “what most other people have”
I’m close to the F9(frontier) FA situation. Their pay was not renegotiated, it was dropped on them in November 2023. Many F9 FA are working 10/11 hour duty days and getting paid for 5 hours. Not including their time to and from the airport. The company told them it would be better quality of life.
Between increasing the number of times they are going to the airport, the gas, tolls and wear and tear on cars the FA’S are losing money. It was a huge pay cut losing the per diem. The company does not pay for food.
In the past you were “giving” the company about 35 hours of your time, with trips. Now with the turn model, you may be paid for 70 hours, but you are giving the company the same amount of free time. Free time is boarding, deplaning, sit time for mechanicals or weather.
Telling FA’S to get another job is like telling you to get another job when you are upset at management. FA’S are the one of the only jobs that do not get paid for all the work you do while on the clock.
It’s still the best job.
Frontier doesn’t care about their cabin crew. Biffle has told them he only wants them there for 2-3 years and leave. On top of that, they continue to employ a dictator manager that oversees flight attendants who will make up a lie and fire people even when they did nothing wrong(ie: fired 5 in 2021 after a security breach where the passenger ended up on a flight)
I’m a new hire. It was not disclosed to me during the interview process or when I was given a contingent job offer. And for people who will say get another job, that would mean 6-8 weeks of unpaid training for another airline. Not everyone can afford that.
Becoming a turn model airline may be good for Frontier. But the fact remains it grossly impacts our CBA and the CBA needs to be renegotiated for this reason. Before and in addition to the upcoming negotiations for the new contract.
Anyone who has ever driven to DEN airport knows, this is not a “convenient” thing for anyone! You are talking At LEAST an hour and 15min to get to employee parking and then drive home. And another 1.15 hr back the next morning. So you’ve cut 2.1/2 hours from your rest, driving. As opposed to hoping on a shuttle and riding for 10 min to a hotel. It wouldn’t be as bad ain’t cities where the airport is close to town, not 30 miles out in the middle of a field that the Mayor’s brother owned.
Too bad the Frontier flight attendants don’t have (or haven’t mentioned) a clause in their contract like many other carriers that requires a company allowance toward relocation if their base is involuntarily relocated.
HEY WALTER-
Before you come at us I’m the comments, maybe do some fing research on what training flight attendants actually go through and you will realize that 90% of the training consists of saving your life in the unknown event of an evacuation, you uneducated jerk. We are not just coke machines.
Thank you for your attention.
If they’re home more often, how they gone get their freak hookups on w their grinder side hustles?
People will whine about anything.
If Frontier wants to work their flight attendants like most other people then pay them like most other people. Full hourly pay from the time they clock in until the time they clock out with required breaks and overtime.
There’s many think to like about Frontier, notably last minute Plus seat fares that are half that of the big3 regular economy. One thing I dislike about flying with them are their FAs that talk to each other incessantly and loudly in the front galley near those up front seats. Frontier and AA FAs really make it hard to sympathize with them.
Flight attendants that like one day trips are most likely already flying them. Not everyone came to the job with that in mind. Crew depend on their per diem since it’s part of your salary. Depending on the type of flying, that can range from $400-$1000 per month. With inflation, that’s nothing to sneeze at for a lot of people. Losing that without getting something in exchange is union busting.
How would you feel if 25% of your pay vanished overnight?
I hope scores of them quit and Frontier learns a lesson.
Really? A flight attendant gets $2.15 for each hour they are away. They’re not making any money from this. This is just another example of corporate greed. And their on time departures have gotten worse, not better, under this new model. CEOs making over half a million a year care more about their income than providing sustainable wages to their employees who are actually ensuring the safety of 200 passengers on every flight. Frontier should be ashamed of themselves and quit providing false information to the general public.
Umm, kinda glossed over that pay reduction didn’t you? When I was a flight attendant that per diem was $2.68/per hour away from base, if you’re away from home say 3-4 days a week your per diem would land you at 270-300+ hours of per diem. I did the math for you, that’s at minimum $700/month of tax free earnings. Considering my taxable income was 28k first year, yea that $700 reduction is nothing to gloss over! The position these flight attendants are put in reminds me of Frontiers bid to take over my airline, I didn’t sign up for Frontier or jetBlue, so I couldn’t imagine a situation where my company got bought by Frontier and then they also turn around and over hall the flight attendant lifestyle, and then you would have been writing instead “Well if you don’t like it then leave”. What a wild ride that could have been.
As a pilot for a major airline, I disagree that pilots get better rest sleeping in their own beds.
Some of us have kids and our schedules are not conducive to rest at home. This morning I’m up at 0230 to drive 2 hours to the airport. Last night I put my daughter to bed. This has left me with 4. 5 hours sleep.
At a hotel, I would have been sleeping quietly by 1900 hrs.
Doing this every day will result in chronic fatigue. Airline schedules are not like ‘everybody else’. Does everyone else go to work, park remotely, then take s bus, then go through security, then walk 2 miles or so to their desk where they travel 10-12 hours to return and do the same thing in reverse? Nope. Can I go to the bank on my lunch break or attend a meeting at my kids’ school? Nope.
This is a devision made by frontier driven simply by corporate greed with no regard for crew safety or comfort. In many ways, this is Boeing for where it is today.
“You can’t please all the people all the time”. Half the folks want to be home at night while some want 3 or 4 day trips. The flight attendants unhappy should find a new career or transfer to a new job within the company more liking to their lifestyle.
@ Jay — actually, yes. My job does make me work while not getting paid. I work in healthcare.
That’s why they call it WORK not FUN??
Whining union again thinking that they run the airline and they know best on how to make an airline profitable. They will be the first ones to scream when the airline starts to furlough FAs because of lack of profits. Since when do a FA’S per diems take priority over an efficient operating airline? And for the commuters.. you made that choice to commute.. the airline didn’t force you to live away from your base.
This is just really lopsided commentary. OF COURSE this is a change in the way flight attendants work and are compensated. Any union that does not fight to be involved in navigating this for the benefit of their workers is a negligent one. Good for the union. (Also, completely sensible by Frontier)
You don’t get to decide what’s good the the FAs, they get to make that decision and argue for it. And an effective paycut and sudden relocation or major expense increases is probably not what they want.
Sara Nelson has as much credibility as Donald Trump. You can count on her using the words “corporate greed” in every other sentence as Trump uses the words “corrupt system”.
@Gary Lee. Just so you know, cutting from multi-day trips to turns cuts Flight attendant pay in half. I am an actual flight attendant. And yes, we work for multiple hours without getting paid. I am allotted 15 hours on duty, if there are delays I do not get paid. Instead of working a 9 hour paid day (which means working for about 14 hours) on a trip, my options now are to work for 4-6 hours (which means working a 10-14 hour day but only getting paid 4-6). So maybe before you tire the horn if the airline, you should do your research and get your facts right.
Last year, I flew for 50 hours a week, all year, and totaled only getting paid $16/hour which is less than $40k a year. This is not a livable wage, and yes I have a second job now because of this. I would love to see you work 50 hours a week every week, and not be able to pay your mortgage.
Do your research before commenting, otherwise you look like an idiot.
There are always simple turns and many FAs want to be at home each night. Not sure why they are complaining. Meals are not paid for away from home. Yes, there is a per diem but, it still comes out of the FA’s pocket when away. If the FA is not a line-holder, an ever-changing schedule is just part of the nature of the industry. It’s what the FAs signed up for. It’s well-explained.
How about you mention the fact that flight attendants are NOT PAID from the time we get to the airport until the time we get back that day, in other words work a 14 hour day, get paid 6 hours for flight time? Maybe do your homework on the whole situation before making us out to be whiney babies for just wanting to be treated fairly?
Also, we don’t get paid much better than others. Minimum wage in California for fast food workers is $20/hr, we start at $25.
To Walter, you’re an ignoramus. When you are dying of a heart attack on your flight, who do you think is trained to medically assist you? When your plane has a critical malfunction, who do you think is trained and responsible to safely get you and your fellow passengers off the plane? If, God forbid, your plane has an attempted hijacking, who do you think is trained and willing to protect the cockpit from those hijackers by any means necessary up to and including giving up their lives? Yeah, that would be your talking coke machine….
Let me see if I can offer some clarity, since this article isn’t giving the full story.
The flying public seems to think becoming an “out-and-back model” will improve Frontier’s on-time performance, and so far (03/2024) the opposite has proven to be true. March was when the first big push to this model began, and in March there was less than 60% on-time flights. That’s LESS than what it was before. Maintenance can’t happen frequently in every base when you make a quick shift to a new model and don’t have the employees to support it. So, thus far, the 90% of the time the plane is in base is NOT a good thing.
The contract specifies Frontier must offer a variety of trips. Frontier is working around this and offering a “variety” of “out-and-backs.” Commuting for flight attendants is difficult when you’ve built your life around what the company has done for the past 20+ years. People have bought homes 3+ hours away from the airport, or in different cities, believing the company would honor our contract. Now, there are those that are either flying in or driving 3+ hours to get to work every day.
All flight attendants based in the US work under the Railway and Labor Act, which automatically makes this job different than most others. It also means there are different rules. Flight attendants are paid by the flight hour, which means if a flight is only five hours out and back – you’re only paid for five hours of your time. Let’s break that down: wake up at 2 AM to get to the airport by 4 AM, board for thirty minutes to an hour, plane departs (delayed two hours) at 7 AM, fly your 2.5 PAID hours, deplane for thirty minutes to an hour, tidy the plane (because Frontier refuses to pay for cleaners), board thirty minutes to an hour again, depart at 11 AM and get 2.5 PAID hours, wait for a gate/jet bridge and deplane and that’s another 1.5 hours. Your flight attendant just worked an 11 hour day… and got paid for FIVE hours. That’s why this is a big deal. They’re now having to commute back home, fly back home, or rent a hotel room (when they only got paid five hours) to do it all over again.
I can guarantee you NO ONE that is a flight attendant is happy about these changes. Flying is also a career that is seniority based, which means if you’ve been with the company 10 years, you get your pick over someone who has been here 5. The people that did enjoy turns (out and backs), and were previously working 7-8 hour turns, are now stuck working 6 hour turns or less depending on their seniority.
And for your last snarky comment, it’s surprising because you expect a company to uphold its end of the deal when there is a contract in play to protect you. The truck stop bit is completely unnecessary as the HOTEL itself is actually decent, and you wrote that to be malicious. Rather than being so entirely condescending, explaining all of the above with your platform, and why losing $500+, losing personal time, and losing morale would better educate the flying public… rather than painting flight attendants out as “cry babies.” It makes me wonder if Frontier paid you for the article…
At least they don’t have to sleep in the airport like FAdid to me when I was left in a closed airport for 9 hours
Where was all the boo hoo when Frontier used to fly this way back in the early 2000’s?
Frontier FA and Pilots didn’t stand up for all those customer service and ramp personnel back then when they got replaced with a third party no benefits outfit . We were trying to organize a union for some protection for our jobs. Most of us went home less and had to quickly find employment elsewhere. Frontier didn’t know how to make money back then either. The absolute worst company and very dishonest to work for, guess those FA’s forgot that and could hide behind their little union badge. The only hope you got now is to strike and better hope the pilots don’t turn their backs on you too.
Barry and the posse need to go.
@Jay
Per diems are paid to the employee as an allowance for company expenses & are not employee compensation, never considered to be part of an employee’s pay, nor is it presented that way. If receipts were actually required (and some employers do require them), then the employee would only be getting reimbursed the actual amount they paid towards expenses. Why would anyone feel this is compensation?
I find it funny that no one even stops for a second to recognize that this is exactly the model the regional carriers use. 30 minutes from PHX-FLG in an RJ. Regional pilots day looks like this: drive to airport, then PHX-FLG-PHX-FLG-PHX done for the day, drive home. For airline pilots, many/most of them had to fly with the regionals before getting into the majors. This “change” is nothing new, been there, done that, maybe even prefer it. For the FAs though, many/most got their first jobs in the majors and never had to “build time and experience with regionals” so this might be a little shocking that airlines can and do operate like this, everyday. The fact that the union made those statements is pretty telling on how they never seemed to care for the lesser paid, poorly treated regional FAs. Less pay, less dues, less we care about you’s.
First of all- over 50% of pilots are also listed as commuters so it’s significantly worse for pilots health doing turns. Now, flight crew have significantly less rest time between trips and it’s costing exponentially more money. A FA who would have previously spent $300 a month on commuter hotels is now spending at least triple. A flight attendant who previously would work 140 hours can now only manage about 90. This isn’t only about “banking per diem” it’s everything else. This isn’t a “normal” job. Even low time fliers could meet minimums in about 9 days instead of 15.
@Chamba – well if you don’t have a restful home environment that is rather on you…
@Christopher W – you also have more expenses away from home than sleeping at home
Unbelievably amazing with Frontier son had a flight Wednesday they canceled it and told him to come back the following week had to buy a ticket on Delta flew back the following Wednesday night flight was canceled again it was late and then sat on the plane on the tarmac for 90 minutes
Greyhound of the sky! No thanks.