News and notes from around the interweb:
- Virgin Atlantic is eliminating its Austin flight, with last service January 7. They just couldn’t compete with British Airways which has connecting feed and American’s customer base in the city. At one point ,the flight’s loads had been in the 20s. A blow by the Delta-controlled carrier to the Austin focus city strategy, which still includes three-times weekly KLM to Amsterdam. (I had award travel booked on this flight, sigh.)
- TSA tweaks banned items list
- In fairness, American doesn’t repeat the word ‘premium’ like a mantra in its earnings call the way that Delta does.
Great “first class” experience on @AmericanAir . Greeted with a busted seat and outlet receptacle that looked like it had been ripped apart. pic.twitter.com/KPy3hScyoH
— Frank Ambrose (@Siena85) October 25, 2023
- American is done with corporate business. They don’t want to discount, and they don’t want the high-touch service. They’ve already laid off sales staff, restricted sales of their cheapest fares in some cases, announced a business rewards program that exclude bookings made through corporate channels. And now:
American continues its efforts to ensure a travel agent never books the airline again. Sales support staff notified their jobs are gone after Nov. Calls to sales support will be routed to reservations where agents are supposedly being trained.
Word salad statement from AA: pic.twitter.com/ZVYDRDh1V5
— Brett Snyder (@crankyflier) October 26, 2023
- United reminds flight attendants that loyalty is a lifetime endeavor. The airline has gotten really good at celebrating customer milestones inflight
- Payment uncertainty is another reason not to wait in line for an airline’s hotel voucher to a property you wouldn’t want to sleep in
I was proactively offered 30k miles recently when on JAL F because seat was malfunctioning, even though I was able to move to another available F seat. Can you imagine that happening on AA, or any domestic carrier? I sure can’t.
Was almost denied boarding in AUD a few weeks ago on an Etihad 787 because my Business Class seat was taken out of service on a fully booked flight and given a Standby Boarding Pass. Fortunately there was one no-show and I was given that seat, but almost had to choose between downgrade on a 13 hour flight or being left at the gate. Also not very “Premium.”
Once again, Gary does not understand that “premium” is defined by what a customer pays for a company’s products or services, not by whether an INOP sticker can be anecdotally found in an aircraft.
Passenger RASM for the big 3 across their systems in 3rd quarter 2023:
AA 16.95 cents/ASM
DL 17.92
UA 17.04
Delta DOES command a revenue premium to the rest of the U.S industry, AA has the LEAST revenue per ASM of the big 3 and THAT is why AA can’t use the term “premium”
While UA does have longer stage lengths on average, they still have a revenue discount to DL.
And when you add in total revenue per ASM, excluding its refinery, DL’s TRASM is 19.87, higher still than AA’s 18.40 or UA’s 18.49.
DL not only gets more revenue per seat mile for its DOMESTIC services than any other U.S. airline for total revenue but also gets more revenue just for passenger services.
Only in @Tim Dunn world is a revenue premium not attached to either a premium brand and product or to a moat (that in a commodity business can exist only through government regulation).
@Timmythedeltashill
It’s circular logic to claim that Delta is a premium airline because they are able to charge a small premium for their product. People don’t choose to pay extra to fly Delta because they charge more, they fly Delta because they perceive Delta to be a premium product. That perception is collapsing though. The financials are a lagging indicator, you wouldn’t see this in the numbers yet, but don’t worry, you will. The damage is done. The recent missteps have awoken many people to the fact that Delta isn’t that much better than their competitors, and if you can’t get into their lounges anymore then certainly not worth paying extra for.
neither Gary or the troll that keeps changing their user name can admit that American IS t he least premium US airline according to factual revenue numbers – and DL is the most premium.
The quarter JUST ENDED a month ago and was reported 2 weeks ago. To somehow think that the numbers that have said the same thing for years all of a sudden change in the course of a month is the height of denying reality.
The airline industry by definition is not a commodity business if people pay different amounts for the same thing.
and, no, retail gasoline and bread are not commodities. Crude oil and wheat is. Consumers don’t buy crude oil or wheat
the fact that Gary and others argue against basic economic principles show how little they actually know
@Timmythebrokenrecord
No I haven’t changed my username in years, and no, you didn’t grasp a single thing I wrote, it’s like you just went straight to writing your usual wall of text…which makes me think it’s you who regurgitates numbers without understanding what they mean. I hope Delta is paying you well to be the most prolific blog troll…if you do this on your free time then that’s pretty sad.
@TimmyDunnonlefsnuts, on Delta flight typing this and can confirm there is nothing premium about this experience. Cudos to you, definitely the greatest Flyer/Award Talk troll online?
@ Gary — The ultimate irony is Tim Dunn calling someone else a troll. He is The Troll of All Trolls.
and yet not one person, including Gary, can counter that Delta gets more money per seat mile for its services.
Are 150 million passengers per year wrong and 3 juveniles on the internet right because they can’t admit it?
I don’t think so
Tim has pointed out what Delta has been saying all along, that despite carrying more passengers but less passenger revenue than competing carriers, Delta is premium because of non passenger revenue that exclude passengers from the equation. The key to Delta’s success in passenger services is to buy densely configured aircraft without PE, fly them on routes that are premium heavy like ATL-JV hubs and hose price insensitive customers who have no choice but to fly on DL. Bonus points for saying reconfig plans are immediately in the works, but then holding onto them for years with 0 reconfigs while competing carriers are able to reconfigure entire fleet types in faster timelines. Extra credit for saying a wide body order with either A35K with GE MRO contracts or 787-10 P&W w/ MRO is coming since a Delta intern had their honeymoon in Paris yesterday.
The lack of judgment of Tim Dunn is affirmed. It is so ordered.
@ Tim — No one here wants Delta to get more of their money, except you obviously. When are YOU going to learn that this blog is not about making Delta or other airlines more profitable, but about improving the personal finances of its readers and owner? Were are not friends of Delta.
People don’t fly DL because they think it is “premium” but because it has the flight at the time they want.
@ Jerry — BINGO! But, because the time you want couldn’t possibly ever be offered by any airline other than ultra-premium airline Delta Airlines, it costs more and is therefore by definition PREMIUM…rolleyes…
@Tim Dunn,
While it is true that Delta has outperformed its 2 other legacy peers in terms of a REVENUE premium, if my own personal experiences and others’ (generally trusted family members or close friends whom I booked flights for) reports are representative of the Delta of now (vs. the one of the past), then the airline is now at a crossroads and must decide if it wants to go back to the “premium airline” of yore that many of us fondly remember (and increasingly miss) – or if it wishes to continue in its transition towards becoming just another “ordinary” (as in mostly terrible) USA-based airline.
Because flying Delta (as in entire PaxEx on the ground, especially) over the past year at best has been hit or miss.
It’s as if one experiences two different airlines, but never knowing “which airline” they’re going to get at every touch point, save, perhaps inflight, which still seems to be much better than the often poor customer service on the ground.
Since I live in NYC, I’ll start with the disaster that is (the increasingly dilapidated and run down) JFK Terminal 4 (at least the headhouse is; maybe not the A and B piers which are undergoing expansion and it’s unfair to criticize right now).
Be it the leaks, dingy arrival hall and bag claim, filthy bathrooms, creaky elevators, dirty ceiling and windows on the departures level headhouse, the endless lines to clear security, and perhaps most upsetting of all, the humiliation and abuse passengers with reduced mobilities often experience with lengthy waits for wheelchair attendants and the surly staff they deal with while they’re waiting far beyond the 30 mins stipulated by US DOT in the Air Carrier Access Act, the JFK T4 “experience” alone is reason enough for us to avoid booking Delta flights that depart from a terminal so overcrowded and bad now (for non-elites, of course), that it brings to mind the former Central Terminal Building at LaGuardia before it was torn down, or the Pan Am Worldport as that airline was in its death spiral.
And that’s before discussing the mile long schlep from the curb to the furthest B gates (beyond the SkyClub) at JFK T4.
Then there’s the sketchy meal vouchers (gift cards) for delayed flights that always seem to arrive at the last minute and “too late” to use
[Pro tip: the gift cards can also be used at the arrival airport – for snacks and other goodies at a newsstand/gift shop, or of course at restaurants if one has time to spare waiting for an order to be prepared for take-out, or even to sit down and eat if they have the time and no bags checked].
But, hey, the airline can say “we complied” with the “consumer protections” urged by the current administration – even if they oh so cleverly game the system by seemingly offering them “too late” to use by most, especially since the gift cards are NOT valid beyond the arrival (or connecting) airport.
Next up are the customer service reps.
To be clear, sometimes one still is lucky enough to connect with an “old school” (aka friendly, knowledgeable and professional) Delta rep – and it’s GREAT when that happens – but increasingly one gets a rep that’s flat out awful and seems to not care at all.
Worse yet, some tell bald faced lies seemingly unaware that to anyone with even a modicum of industry knowledge, the bald faced lie will be obvious and laughable.
As noted, the old school Delta most love (and increasingly miss) still exists.
The new headhouse at LGA is wonderful and our most recent experience at Newark Terminal A (especially the SkyPriority areas at both LGA & EWR) 2-weeks ago was also excellent, but that just makes the contrast with the “new and so NOT improved Delta” that much clearer.
For example, over the summer a family member with extremely reduced mobility (as in they require a Rollator full time), had to fend for themself for a connection in Detroit when a wheelchair and attendant failed to arrive at all.
That’s wholly unacceptable. Period.
Bottom line: as noted above, Delta seems to be at a crossroads and must decide if it wants to be the premium airline many of us fondly recall, or just another airline (that seems to be resting on its past laurels).
@TimDunn
Ha!Ha!Ha! Hey Timmy boy Joey and Mantis got the best of you. Made you look like a fool! I fly all three but I don’t give a shit between one or the other but I got a big laugh at your expense because of Joey and Mantis. You walked right into it. Best watch where you step. Ha!Ha!Ha! Stupid fool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
all that keyboard banging by a few people and NONE of them can grasp the concept that anecdotal evidence – what any person experiences – means anything for companies that serve 100 million plus passengers per year.
Gary JUST posted an article about his experience in CLT – a far larger station for them than JFK is for DL.
And DL IS rebuilding large parts of T4 at JFK. AA is also spending money at CLT.
At the beginning and end of the day, “premium” is defined by what people are willing to pay for a product or service.
AA lags both DL and UA in what people are willing to pay and AA is increasingly walking away from competitive industry sales by firing their sales staff and retrenching to monopoly hubs – which mean they connect more and more revenue if they even compete for it.
We can go on all day long w/ the insults but Delta is THE US’ premium airline regardless of whatever anyone wants to tell us from their experience
The changes at AA are all being made ‘for the benefit of their customers’!
@Tim Dunn,
Although I devoted much of the copy to the (mostly horrible) JFK T4 “experience”, to be clear, the shortcomings also referenced occurred elsewhere:
At call centers, text messaging (or the Delta equivalent) and at various airports NOT JFK (with Detroit specifically also noted).
Yes, my discussion may be anecdotal, but I have a very long experience working within or covering the industry, and the fact remains that the Delta of now is NOT always the Delta many of us fondly remember.
And it’s not just a few bad apples.
The “bad” (or alter-ego, if you will) Delta is far more common than it used to be, and it’s recent, widely publicized “fails” are a testament to an airline that’s NOT what it used to be – and now is at a crossroads where it must decide which airline it wants to be:
The CONSISTENTLY “premium airline” it used to be – or barely distinguishable from the rest of the mostly terrible USA-based airlines it seems to be of late.
Tim,
Thanks for acknowledging that DL brings less passenger revenue and brings in less revenue in its premium cabins than its peers.
But wait, DL is more premium even though they didn’t even have the most passenger revenue per passenger either. So let’s define premium as red triangle emojis then it’s clear DL is premium regardless what the other colored polygon emojiis say.
I swear the amount of logical gymnastics Tim does to make DL marginally better in scenarios where it’s clearly not, is some clinical form of overcompensation of frail ego.
howard,
you do realize that there is a plethora of customer service data on the US airline industry and it still says that Delta is at the top of the industry.
I am not debating whether Delta might have slipped in some areas in your mind or someone else’s but data doesn’t show it.
For someone that touts your experience with the industry to not be able to grasp that is really quite hard to believe.
How about you bring us the data you are using and how DL ranks in the data you reference?
And the DL marketing discount troll now just lies “Thanks for acknowledging that DL brings less passenger revenue and brings in less revenue in its premium cabins than its peers” or makes up his own statistics that HE TOO doesn’t even bother to use.
And you do realize that Gary started this article w/ a picture of an INOP sticker on an AA aircraft and then says “in fairness AA doesn’t call itself premium” as if that excuses broken anything on anyone.
The simple reality is that AA doesn’t get as much money as other airlines for the same services and is back to its position at the bottom of the big 3 – but above the LCCs and ULCCs.
So, AA is a hybrid global LCC/ULCC.
None of us are surprised to find that out.
Tim,
Let’s check the data since you obviously could debunk the data by providing it, right?
Q3 2023
Passenger Revenue
DL 13.119B
UA 13.349B
Premium Products
DL 5.113B
UA >6.675B (>50% of Passenger Revenue)
July 2023
Passengers
DL
15.339M
UA
12.733M
But unfortunately data doesn’t work if your numerically illiterate and analytically stunted like the hangar queen of the comments, Tim Dunn.
As I figured, you are playing fast and loose with numbers. United does not report its premium revenue segmentation on its SEC, filed financial statements. Wherever you got greater than 50% has no basis in their actual financial statements. if you don’t understand that United flies more long-haul international passengers than any other US airline and us will have a higher average fare, you don’t understand the industry.
Tim,
Again the blubbering idiot in the comments who has no idea what he’s taking about.
You know the SEC FORM 8-K that provides information such as the MRQ passenger revenue numbers for UA? Read it, because it states clearly in plain text that premium products were more than half of passenger revenue. But again reading comprehension isn’t your strongest virtue and neither is using data, so no surprise.
You also claimed this week, “United does not publish revenue by cabin as Delta does and DL’s numbers show that it gets 50% of its passenger revenue from premium classes.”
But what exactly did DL report to the SEC in its 8-K and 10-Q?
Main Cabin: 6.620B
Premium Products: 5.113B
How exactly can I play fast and loose with numbers when someone like you is constantly slow and dense.
I swear every time you try to use any number in your argument, it buckles and collapses.
Vote Tim Dunn for Hanger Queen.
you are the fool if you think that a statement without actual numbers is to be believed. All that statement proves is that Scott Kirby can’t stand to admit that Delta gets more revenue per seat mile than any other US airline – which you still can’t disprove.
Second, if United was doing as well with revenue as you want to believe, then why do they consistently make LESS MONEY than Delta not just in every region as reported to the DOT but also in their bottom line?
the reality is that United is vaporware that is chasing whatever revenue it can in the peak period and will fall off the cliff in the off-peak seasons – because that is what United always does.
Go back and provide the year to date revenue metrics and it will be obvious that United is a one season airline.
Oh, and did you see the list of market reductions that United is doing next year including in the S. Pacific? After all the blubbering about United’s dominance in international markets, they will be flying SFO-AKL 3X/week after next spring even as DL enters LAX-AKL on the same frequency and UA has already walked away from multiple LHR flights.
With $35 billion more in capex than any other US airline, UA is simply the Most Vulnerable US airline.
Now, time to return to your 12th basement at Willis Tower.
Your majesty, the Hanger Queen Tim.
Did you mean the statement that was listed on the FORM 8-K reported to the SEC? Sorry, perhaps I misunderstand what an airline Form 8-K as reported to the SEC does. Do you know if it has Scott Kirby’s favorite color included? Or maybe it has relevant financial information such as premium products being more than half of passenger revenue for UA.
So after checking the DOT data you mentioned, it shows that United was the most profitable carrier over the Pacific in the last 5 consecutive quarters reported to the DOT. It also shows that American was the most profitable carrier in Latin America the last 5 consecutive quarters. I wonder if DL was the most profitable over the last 5 consecutive quarters in any region, domestic, international, or system wide. Survey says, NOPE.
The peak quarter of Q3 2022 was DL the most profitable systemwide?
No.
The off peak quarter of Q1 2023?
No.
The off peak/peak period of Q3 2022 – Q1 2023 Q1?
No.
From 2020-2023, which carrier was actually the least profitable including losing 11 billion dollars in two quarters alone, along with ownerships stake being heavily diluted?
You got it! DELTA! Prost!
UA is running 66 weekly to Australia/NZ without including its JV partner and is reducing 4 frequencies on AKL-SFO for 3 months? DL is running 21 weekly without a JV? UA is running 17 weekly to LHR where DL is running 11 weekly. Do you want a participation award for your Pulitzer worthy investigation?
I know nothing of living in basements Tim, that’s perhaps something you might know more of. Maybe it’s because I’m doing all the legwork in actually providing data while you keyboard warrior paragraphs to overcompensate your frail ego.
Try again, Tim.
the idiot doesn’t even know that a building constructed to repair aircraft is spelled “Hangar” and yet he has the nerve to tell other people how wrong they are.
once again, you want to selectively pick and choose time periods in which UA looks great. yes, they made plenty of money flying the Pacific in 2023 YTD but you love to just dismiss 2017-2019, the 3 best years of the industry and UA lost money flying the Pacific.
And on a system level – bottom line of those SEC documents that you love to cite – UA UNDERPERFORMS DL. That is a fact.
When you can accept first and then explain why UA is always the financial underperformer to DL, then we can talk.
I quit flying Delta because they started charging excessively higher than American, United, Southwest, Alaska etc, for the same service; i.e. getting me from Point A to Point B. They offer nothing in the way of amenities that justifies the noticeably-higher prices.
Your majesty the Hanger Queen Tim Dunn,
Systemwide?
Q3 2022
Net Income
DL 759M (5.4%)
UA 942M (7.3%)
Revenue
DL 13.99B
UA 12.88B
H2 2022
Net Income
DL 1.69B (6.1%)
UA 1.79B (7.1%)
Revenue
DL 27.45B
UA 25.28B.
Q3 2022 – Q1 2023
Net Income
DL 1.41B (3.5%)
UA 1.59B (4.2%)
Revenue
DL 40.24B
UA 36.71B
QED. Try again, maybe next time Hanger Queen.
If anyone wants to be Tim Dunn for Halloween, just make baseless claims without any data and then when someone with data disproves it just make up another baseless argument without data.
still can’t figure out that a “hanger” is what you hang clothes on and airplanes go to a hangar for repairs which makes a hangar queen a repair-prone aircraft.
Your inability to master the English language is only exceeded by your arrogance and your selective and fast and loose treatment of facts.
You manage to pick the post-covid recovery period in which I have specifically said that United gained a profit advantage because of Kirby’s decision not to retire aircraft.
Let’s face it that you are just like the children at the kiddie table site that selectively pick out whatever you want.
UA is not as profitable as DL and still has yet to settle w/ its FAs – which will set them back
hundreds of millions per year. UA is losing share in key major markets including NYC because they overhubbed EWR and that is no longer sustainable. EZE, GIG and HNL are just a couple markets that DL will serve from JFK but UA can’t from EWR. And DL is 20% larger in terms of flights than UA.
Just stop the BS and explain to us how and why UA cannot reach DL’s profit numbers either on a system level but over an extended period of time.
UA’s profits exceeded DL’s for a couple of quarters and precisely ONE on a cost-comparable basis. DL finalized its pilot deal long before UA. or AA. DL has raised the pay of all employees. UA can’t say that and neither can AA or WN.
You love to cherrypick data and dates – including in 2022 when we are in 2023 – but can’t explain why UA underperforms DL in the most recent period
None of which changes that AA, for all of its problems, still has built a far larger southern US route system than DL or UA and has a newer fleet – which is why they will spend a fraction of what UA will have to spend on fleet.
Grow up and admit the truth
UA is an also ran that is chasing DL up front and being driven by raft of ex-HP/US/AA execs that are trying desperately to find fault w/ AA.
UA’s downfall is coming. It is a house of cards built on Kirby’s arrogance and chasing every nickel of seasonal revenue but spending a dollar to do so. UA’s business plan is the LEAST sustainable of the big 3; AA has a better business plan than UA.
@ Tim — Kirby arrogant? No, that would be Bastian and Dunn. Better fleet — United; better alliance — United; better award program — United; True premium lounges — United. Truly premium cabins — United. Better gummy bears — Delta. Better at screwing taxpayers — Delta. Better are screwing long-term loyal customers — Delta. Who’s chasing who?
Dear Your Majesty Hanger Queen Tim Dunn,
You asked for profitability, and I gave the numbers. You write a 95 point theses to excuse to Delta being less profitable. So let’s do another range.
Q1 2017 – Q4 2020
DL 87.65M loss
UA 223.96M profit
DL carried more passengers, flew more flights, earned more total revenue and still wasn’t profitable over the same period.
Now I’ve given a range that has previously spanned multiple quarters. Now I’m showing a range of 4 years and 15 total quarters that shows Delta less profitable.
You’re constantly long winded, superfluous, and full of non sequitur arguments. But one thing you can never provide is the actual numbers and data to support your argument. Stop overcompensating for your frail ego with trying to hit word count in all of your posts. Must be something about Scott Kirby living rent free in your head every day Delta fails to place a wide body aircraft order.
When the data doesn’t lie, Tim always cries. All hail the Hanger Queen, Tim Dunn!
QED
Not only are you the epitome of arrogance and ignorance that is United Airlines executives (you still keep typing “hanger queen” when you have repeatedly been told that is the incorrect spelling for the usage you are trying to use.
But the use of “hanger queen” (sic) is a perfect example of what is wrong with United. They see themselves as far more than they really are and are unable to admit their own flaws and weaknesses.
Scott Kirby’s ego is totally wrapped up in trying to prove that UA is better than DL – and yet he has failed on an extended period of time to match DL’s profits, a goal he set when he came to UA.
He left American in ruins including by all of the aircraft he bought to chase routes which never worked. Lots of people forget that Kirby was who ran AA’s network for years. AA is still trying to extricate the demons that Kirby left.
Kirby is the one that cannot have an earnings call without comparing UA to someone else and trashing competitors. If UA was half as good as he or you think they are, everyone would know it. And yet UA is worth less as a company than both Delta, at the top of the industry, and WN – which right now is far less profitable.
UA and Kirby needs the ULCCs and LCCs to fail in order for UA’s massive fleet expansion – UA Next – to work.
I said 3 1/2 years ago on that other site that Delta had the best post-covid strategy and financial performance shows I was right.
Kirby has gotten a quick buck’s worth of revenue and is spending ten dollars to get it and to think he will get more.
I also said in that article 3 1/2 years ago that the LCCs were not going to have the advantage that most analysts thought they would – and I have been dead right.
and I said what I said long before UA Next was rolled out.
Problem for Kirby is his hubs can’t support the flying he needs to add without massive investments.
And Delta has matched UA’s growth and done it while spending much much less. and that will be true for the next 10 years – long after Kirby is run out of town.
Scott Kirby’s ego is constantly looking back at AA that kicked him, forward at DL which he can’t catch and hoping for the demise of everyone else including WN – which has the most metro area overlap with UA’s hubs.
DL IS a premium airline and there is ample evidence to prove it. AA doesn’t pretend it is premium because it is not.
But AA is better run and they will return to a better financial position than UA before long.
Let’s not forget that AA significantly outperformed UA in the 2nd quarter.
AA will be back. and stronger.
and you and Kirby will be manipulating facts in order to prove UA’s worth long after the rest of the world catches on like I said years ago that UA is a house of cards.
STFU Tim. For once.
Dear Your Majesty Hanger Queen Tim Dunn,
How is 2017-2020 in any way or form an advantage for United?
I gave you 3 quarters (Q3 2022 to Q1 2023), but of course you made up excuses. Then I provided 16 quarters (Q1 2017 to Q4 2020) and you made up even more excuses.
How about Q1 2020 to Q2 2023?
DL 8.84B loss
UA 7.41B loss
Which is impressive how UA is the airline which was most affected by pandemic travel restrictions, flies the most international, but had smaller losses than DL.
If
1) UA carries less passengers and flies less flights
2) DL posted a loss from 2017-2020 while UA posted profits
3) DL had greater losses than UA from 2020-2023
Then you’re exactly right, UA has the advantage as being the better carrier without having to make any excuses. Must be something about the Scott Kirby management and having the leadership to place an aircraft order rather than talking for years about a wide body order and doing nothing. Which is the Tim Dunn frail ego and overcompensation strategy, lots of talk and no data to show for it. I can see why Scott Kirby constantly lives rent free in your head.
AA is doing great and is much less vulnerable than DL which is the most vulnerable of the US3 given the perpetual losses in multiple periods. AA and UA will continue to grow at the expense of DL.
All hail the hanger Queen Tim Dunn!
cairns,
when you take out UA’s weekend PR idiot, I’ll be happy to walk away. Except you are probably one of them too.
And if you can’t figure out that you STILL can’t include 3 consecutive years of normal business activity, then you simply prove you aren’t interest in a rational discussion.
How about we just take the first 3 quarters or nine months of 2023? No need to gyrate numbers because companies regularly report on that basis.
Net Income for AA $803 million, for DL $2.572 Billion and for UA $2.018 billion.
No manipulation of anything, not a pandemic period. All 3 carriers took similar charges for pilot settlement even though AA and UA have not settled with FAs.
in other words, as close to comparable as could be but you just want to argue because you don’t like the bottom line result – even though that is exactly what the audited financial results show.
UA is an also ran looking up DL’s tailpipe
It’s sad that this is how people spend their weekends… Arguing a point and definition of a single word.
Maybe you can go find something more constructive to do with your time. I’m going to go carve a pumpkin.
Your Majesty Hanger Queen Tim Dunn,
Wow you’re finally a big boy! You finally included data for once. Let me help complete that incomplete data for you.
Q1 2020 – Q3 2023
Total Operating Revenue
DL 141.401B
UA 125.035B
Net Loss
DL 8.299B (-6%)
UA 6.278B (-5%)
In other words, Delta still has 2 billion dollars of additional losses accrued from 2020 despite carrying more revenue, passengers, and flights. But good for you in trying to pick 3 quarters to change that.
When the data and the facts don’t lie, Tim always cries.
All hail the hanger queen Tim Dunn!
You’ve beaten the keyboard for 48 hours and confirmed exactly what I have been saying for months.
UA got a financial benefit by not parking airplanes but that included not being able to take special charges that forced Delta’s losses higher but gave them tax benefits for use in future years and also reduced their costs.
Now that I am repeatedly asking you to admit that UAL is much less profitable in 2023 – all 3 quarters that have been reported – you keep retorting about including pandemic periods including 2022 when Delta specifically said it slowed its growth.
UA’s business plan is flawed and unsustainable – not unlike what AA did but AA didn’t have the guts to act like it was going to take over the earth as Kirby now says he will do at UA.
Kirby left AA a financial disaster. He was the architect of getting rid of 1/4 of LGA’s slots and thinking he would get over 60% of DCA’s slots, only to be outsmarted by DL and the DOJ.
Kirby ordered tens of billions of aircraft at AA, is deeply in debt, and is cutting back the unprofitable routes that Kirby said were strategically necessary.
Kirby has gone to UA, overscheduled EWR and created an operational disaster – which he left on a private jet – only to later tell a Wall Street analyst was history and shouldn’t be discussed again.
Kirby has ordered tens of billions of dollars in new aircraft – 3X what DL has on its books – and yet DL has matched UA’s capacity growth in 2023.
And UA’s profits continue to trail DL’s.
UA is an also ran led by an arrogant and insecure man who is trying to prove his self-worth to AA – which canned him – and to DL – which never would have taken him or the other ex America West stooges.
we can resurrect this conversation every quarter and the numbers will be the same if not even more in DAL’s favor.
Dear Your Majesty Queen Tim Dunn,
Finally! Thank you for admitting that during Scott Kirby’s leadership, Delta lost more money than United.
But hey when you lose 2 billion dollars more than your competitor, tax benefits negate 2 billion dollar losses.
Scott Kirby can be whatever he wants be when he lives rent free in your head, but it doesn’t change what you’ve said for months. That Delta lost more money that competitors since 2020.
When the data and facts don’t lie, Tim always cries.
All hail the hanger Queen Tim Dunn!
Neither you or Scott Kirby are capable of thinking strategically or long term.
Delta intentionally made the decision to retire airplanes and replace them with much more fuel efficient and lower operating cost airplanes.
And the same principle applied throughout all of the charges Delta took.
And you are simply wrong if you think that UA’s choice to walk away from the opportunity to restructure so it could rapidly grow and outperform Delta for a couple of quarters.
UA in 2023, not some cherrypicked set of dates, is underperforming DL financially.
UA will spend 3X more to replace its fleet which was already older and already less-suited for the network that Kirby needs – which are all markers of what Delta did 10 or more years ago – less regional jets, more mainline, seatback AVOD etc.
UA made its decision, DL made its. I can guarantee you that as UA spends a billion more per year for debt service, it will be obvious which airline made the best long-term decision.
and Kirby LOVES to have everybody talking about him and making everyone thinks he is so smart. I am simply here to talk about him – as he wants – but prove that he really isn’t as smart as he thinks he is.
@ Tim — So, basically you’re admitting that Delta isn’t always the smartest at scamming everyone. Maybe Delta should try actually having a premium product, like United, instead of talking about having it later. I’m sure Delta will catch up eventually.
It is pretty obvious to anyone that wants to look at real data that Delta generates more revenue and generates a higher profit in 2023.
It is no surprise that United fankids want to cling to the pandemic when it is clear that UA specifically did not take the steps that either AA or DL took to restructure and UA now makes less money and generates less revenue.
Tell us about the “premium product” on UA’s 757s or on ANY of their 10 abreast 777s or 9 abreast 787s.
Anything but premium
A lot of people, myself included, do pay extra for Delta because the baggage handling, customer service, and occasional perks are usually nicer. I find the planes to be a bit cleaner too. Unless my travel is particularly time sensitive I’ll pay the same amount for a connection with Delta over a direct flight with other carriers.
That said, premium is just a marketing term. There’s no law requiring a carrier to earn more per revenue mile than the competition to use it.
Also, who pissed in Tim’s Cheerios?
nobody pissed anywhere that affects me.
I am simply proving w/ clear and balanced facts what you accurately noted.
DL simply does a better job of delivering a quality product across a larger network in the parts of the country than its competitors.
And people do choose to fly them because of that.
No company that serves 150 plus million customers does anything flawlessly but DL does it better than its peers.
and premium is a marketing term but it is backed up by real and verifiable revenue data.
Your Majesty the Hanger Queen Tim Dunn,
Thanks for admitting that in a diseased on nondiseased period such as the MRQ, DL is less profitable and lower margin than its competitors. But hey, at least they carry more passengers, more flights, more loses, because tax benefits and lower than average fares!
Q3 2023
Revenue
DL 15.488B
UA 14.484B
Net Income
DL 1.108B (7%)
UA 1.137B (8%)
Premium Products
DL 5.113B
UA >6.675B (>50% of Passenger Revenue)
And Jesda is right, premium is a marketing term that DL applies loosely. Because DL brings in less revenue in its premium cabins than competitors, so being fast and loose with premium as a marketing term is how they can win a losing race.
When the data doesn’t lie, Tim always cries (and eats urinated Cheerios)!
All hail the hanger queen, Tim Dunn!
You’ve wasted 3 days trying to argue UAL’s superiority and DAL’s weakness and have failed at every turn.
UAL is chasing summer international travel but their YTD earnings or margins are nowhere close.
There is no financial justification for spending $35 billion more than your competitors to win in margins for a quarter or two at best and then by only a percentage of two while underperforming for the entire year.
We have absolutely no knowledge of how UAL calculates its premium products statement but they and you and everyone else knows that they need to provide actual numbers if they want anyone to believe them.
And if UAL was doing as well as you want to believe they are with premium revenue, then there is a solid reason why they underperform Delta on a YTD basis.
Feel free to let us know the reasons for that.
Your Majesty Hanger Queen Tim Dunn,
That’s a lot of words to back without any data to prove it. But what do the numbers actually say?
Q1 2017 – Q4 2020
Revenue
DL 150.26B
UA 137.65B
Net profit/loss
DL 87.65M loss
UA 223.96M profit
Q1 2020 – Q3 2023
Revenue
DL 141.401B
UA 125.035B
Net Loss
DL 8.299B (-6%)
UA 6.278B (-5%)
Q3 2022
Net Income
DL 759M (5.4%)
UA 942M (7.3%)
Revenue
DL 13.99B
UA 12.88B
H2 2022
Revenue
DL 27.45B
UA 25.28B.
Net Income
DL 1.69B (6.1%)
UA 1.79B (7.1%)
Q3 2022 – Q1 2023
Revenue
DL 40.24B
UA 36.71B
Net Income
DL 1.41B (3.5%)
UA 1.59B (4.2%)
Q3 2023
Revenue
DL 15.488B
UA 14.484B
Net Income
DL 1.108B (7%)
UA 1.137B (8%)
It’s a wonder how competitors spend so much more than Delta but are unsurprisingly more profitable and have higher margins. Perhaps DL needs to bring on Scott Kirby to steer the ship back on course.
When the data doesn’t lie, Tim always cries!
All hail the hanger queen, Tim Dunn!
you forgot to mention that United is underperforming Delta in YTD profits.
get back in your closet, you hanger monger
Dear Your Majesty Hanger Queen Tim Dunn,
Sorry, you meant profit monger.
For 2023, United was more profitable than DL not only in the MRQ, but also in the off peak 1Q. So thank you again for admitting that Delta was less profitable than United so far in 2023. Also shout out to American for also being more profitable than Delta also in Q1 2023.
Q1 2023
Net Income
AA 85M
DL -273M
UA -194M
What did Tim Dunn say before the 2023 Q3 earnings release?
“United does NOT make near as much money in the same regions as Delta and that is why United’s profits on a system basis on an apples to apples basis were lower in the 2nd quarter and will be in the 3rd quarter.
Delta announced their profits today and spoke very favorably about their international regions.
The ball is now in UA’s court. If their international regions are as strong as they and you talk, they should outperform Delta when they report but you and I both know that won’t happen.”
What happened?
Q3 2023
Revenue
DL 15.488B
UA 14.484B
Net Income
DL 1.108B (7%)
UA 1.137B (8%)
It’s hilarious how confidently wrong you always are with your predictions. A literal walking clown show with a frail ego, overly butthurt and psychologically divergent when proven wrong… again.
When the numbers don’t lie, Tim always cries!
All hail the hanger queen, Tim Dunn! All hail the prediction blunder champion!