In the latest Airlines Confidential podcast former Spirit Airlines CEO Ben Baldanza questions whether the CDC mask order actually applies to the time passengers spend on aircraft. That’s an odd take.
On the issue of an Executive Order, clearly I think what President Biden wanted to do was mandate mask wearing in lots of places but recognized that his authority was limited and could do it on federal grounds and in some other areas.
…I don’t know if that mandate is law on board an airplane. I know individual airlines have said you have to wear a mask or we’re not going to allow you to fly… I’m not sure that the mandate that came from President Biden extends to inside the airplane.
…But I also think that it gets to an airline’s requirement to really be clear about how to deal with these kind of conflicts. No one likes conflict especially on board an airplane… but use of the word law if it’s not law as opposed to it’s our policy or we require masks to be worn on the plane that’s better language than it’s the law I think. But it may be the law.
Now, let’s be clear. President Biden’s Executive Order didn’t mandate mask wearing. It instructed his administration to tackle the issue. The CDC then issued a regulation requiring masks on ‘conveyances’.
- Conveyance includes an aircraft under 42 CFR 70.1
- A ‘conveyance operator’ (airline) must require mask wearing “on board..for the duration of travel”
- The airline must use “best efforts to ensure that any person…wears a mask when boarding, disembarking, and for the duration of travel.”
- These best efforts include “instructing persons that Federal law requires wearing a mask on the conveyance and failure to comply constitutes a violation of Federal law”
The FAA and TSA probably lacked the authority to mandate masks so the Biden administration turned to the CDC.
Courts have ruled that the CDC’s power under 42 USC 264(a) is limited to actions similar to those laid out in the statute (in cases involving its eviction moratorium, but the same would apply to the transportation mask mandate). Lindsay Wiley, director of the Health Law and Policy program at American University’s law school in D.C., thinks this also invalidates the federal mask mandate.
So if Baldanza is actually arguing that the CDC’s mask order is not legal, there’s an argument in support of his position. But if he’s suggesting that the order doesn’t cover time spent on the aircraft itself (versus in the airport), or that flight attendants are incorrect to announce that wearing masks is federal law, that’s incorrect as well – both are clearly spelled out in the CDC order.
Most people don’t understand the difference between a law, a regulation, and an executive order. That’s really poor education and sloppy wording more than anything else, and if it is backed by federal power the difference is pretty thin on the ground (or in the air) anyway. Before taking a person up in my club’s sailplane federal regulations require them to be buckled in, which is a good thing. As a non-attorney I suppose the same “health and wellness” idea could arguably be used here, and it seems the government is lenient towards protecting the public health. (At least when it doesn’t involve big industries.) Back around 1900 Mary “Typhoid” Mallon was essentially imprisoned for decades on a hospital island because she was a carrier. Was it legal? Maybe, maybe not. The NY courts said yes and she never got out.
Just another indication that masks on airplanes are short-lived.
Spirit has every reason to lead the charge.
Who cares if it’s a legal order. Just wear your mask for an hour or two and enjoy the trip. Until 95% of people are vaccinated we shouldn’t even be questioning it
@Gus – “Who cares if it’s a legal order.”
If someone sues over this, the courts will care if it’s legal.
“Until 95% of people are vaccinated we shouldn’t even be questioning it”
Yes, we should. We should be able to question everything our government and politicians do (about covid or anything else). This isn’t China or North Korea.
@GUS Why can’t we have mandatory ANAL covid testing before every flight too?
I was on a flight last week, and I won’t say which one to not get the pilot under fire, but I laughed out loud because as we were about to take off, the pilot said this after announcements:
“And folks, one more announcement–someone had to go and make a FEDERAL case about it, so NOW we have to wear masks when we board, disembark, for the duration, in the terminal, on the bus, basically everywhere, or we can all get a big fine…. look, the flight is only an hour, so I think we can all handle that, right…?” He just sounded so annoyed that it had to become this big federal issue when it was already a rule, and I busted out, perhaps a bit TOO hysterical. No one around me was laughing. Absolutely everyone had a mask on, and there weren’t any problems, but now the already-elongated announcements have become redundantly elongated. It’s getting ridiculous.
@ Gus
An hour or two is fine. But most of my travel is transAtlantic. That’s two-hour check-in at ORD. Eight hours flight and another hour, at least, to get outside at LHR. Add another hour on the way back.
Try it sometime. Wear a mask around your house for twelve hours.
I’ve been double vaxed. I’m on a plane where is air is clean. I’m fed up with this.
@Airfarer
Grow up. My wife is a teacher and is fully vaxxed. Been wearing a mask in a room with kids with no AC for months now. All day everyday. I wear mine most of the day at work.
If you can’t handle having a mask on for 12 hours every once in awhile while sitting comfortably in an air conditioned space you probably aren’t up to international travel at all.
Could someone who’s still all in on masks explain exactly what would suffice as enough data/science to make you question their effectiveness? How many more examples of masked mandated states spiking do we need? How many graphs showing free states dropping? How many more direct comparisons like Ft. Worth and Dallas? North and South Dakota? In terms of covid aerosol spread the mask is like using a chain link fence to keep out mosquitoes…….virtue signaling theater period.
@ Bob Jones
Where is your leftist tolerance? I guess that only applies to people who think like you do.
Sorry but I doubt the CEO of Spirit airlines has ever had the best interest of his passengers at heart.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7680614/
Summary from the NIH: Masks don’t work.
Stop the insanity.
If you are too fragile to sit with people not wearing masks, you are too fragile to travel. Please stay home until you get a grip, get vaccinated, or both.
The legality of this rule is likely a question of Federal Administrative Law as codified in the Administrative Procedure Act. Administrative agencies like CDC and FAA cannot pass rules having the force of law without a delegation of authority by Congress, not by the President who can only control enforcement (or non-enforcement) of Federal law. I don’t see any arguable grant of authority under 42 USC 264(a), and I think if anybody challenges this mandate, and can get past standing requirements (which could be more tricky), it will be gone.
@ Airfarer
I routinely wear a mask for 16+ hours at work with only a half hour break in between double shifts. It isn’t the end of the world. Plenty of people with important jobs wear them all day and are sick of all you whiney folks who think it infringes on your freedoms
All this freedumb crap is the reason half a million americans are dead. Blood is on your hands if you rejected science
Hey Gus,
Piss off with your scaredy-cat little cries.
Read the linked NIH article. MASKS DO NOT WORK.
If you are afraid of being out, wear a mask, goggles, a face shield, and gloves or stay home. Don’t try to tell other what they should do.
I am so sick and tired of this nonsense.
@1KBrad
I hope you don’t have to watch anyone die of Covid it’s a lot less fun that not wearing a mask.
Ben Baldanza is a Director at JetBlue. Why do you always refer to him as former Spirit CEO when it’s something he said you disagree with?
On an international flight now where everyone has a negative test. Delta Mask Nazis in full force. Statistically, 10% of the passengers have had COVID and more than half are vaccinated. This is just beyond stupid. I am a COVID victim (‘survivor’ for all you hand wringers) myself, and vaccinated.
And for all the claims of denying science, I assure you I am versed in science…actual, real, hard science. So for all you spouting follow the science, I challenge you to actually produce the science. I’ve never seen it and neither have you. So, as said earlier, Piss Off.
Wow, Bob & Gus are completely brainwashed. Just because you can wear a face diaper for prolonged periods of time, doesn’t mean we can. All this hatred for a virus that has a 97+ % survival rate. Get off your soapbox & actually start thinking rationally . Hope you enjoyed reading Fauci the Fraud’s recently leaked emails…so much for “science.”
Watching someone die of COVID is a piss poor argument. Was that person infected because he/she/(fill in the blank) did not wear a mask or because someone around them didn’t wear a mask? My bet is either you don’t know or no. The masks are clearly a control mechanism. The airlines already state that the circulation on planes is probably the best conditions except being outside. You don’t see people coming off a plane and getting the flu every year. There is a reason for that. So take your philosophy that one should just suck it up and wear a mask and keep it to yourself. Most people are sitting in the airport, on a plane, waiting for luggage and getting a rental car for far more than 1-2 hours. Your argument is weak and it’s overused. Masks suck and these damn airline employees are so brainwashed, they won’t STFU about wearing them.
It comes down to whether it’s a LAW or not. When did Congress vote on it? Never.
Statistically, the masks don’t work. Also, even in the beginning of the plandemic, flight attendants had a LOWER rate of infection than the general public. It’s not about protection; it’s about control. It’s a toe in the pool to gauge the next step; and if you don’t think it’s coming, you’re being willfully ignorant.
You are being trained to OBEY. Tyranny requires more Tyranny to survive.
Since when did CDC
or TSA gain the ability to write laws?
Masks are stupid and don’t work. They restrict your breathing and cause more harm than the virus. This virus is completely treatable if you actually listen to the true science! And @Carrie is right! Since when have the cdc or TSA been authorized to make laws?!
Comment threads like these are more evidence of the polarizing effects of the media and dumbing down of our society. Someone actually spelled freedom “free dumb” – wow… research “ShadowNet” if you’re interested in another theory explaining the hostility we see online these days.
So, are the airlines breaking Federal law by serving pretzels and beverages, requiring that masks be removed for trivial reasons? Seems to me that for about five minutes, every passenger on a plane has their mask removed to eat arguably unnecessary snacks. Pretzels and drinks are served to everyone onboard simultaneously, and for five minutes no one is masked. So, the whole charade is out the window right there. We’re packed like sardines in a tube in the sky breathing recirculated air.
So, the question I still have is can we disobey the airline’s demand to wear a mask at all times? I’m soon to be flying and have a hard time breathing in a mask
@GUS
If you follow the science so avidly; I am sure that you also believe because of science that there are only 2 genders specifically created for the purpose of creating life. I am sure you also believe that a heartbeat means life and abortion is murder. Science points to the ineffectiveness of mask, strength of natural immunity, dangers of vaccinations and more.. it takes research to see this since it will not be reported. Please wake up and lose the selfish virtuous mask theatrics. You are fueling the demise of our nation.
Just wear the mask for a few minutes. Nothing big. Just keep religion in line. Only a few people have been banned from speaking their mind. You can only have one weapon of my choosing… when does it end? As a nation we are WELL on our way down the slippery slide of Socialism. Time to hit the brakes.
@Gus, we absolutely question the government especially this reckless administration. An hour yeah fine I’m currently in the 2nd leg of a flight from Boston to Lincoln, NE have had this horrible mask on now from 8am and its now 4pm and I’m ready to pass out I can’t breath. I’m vaccinated so why? This is absolutely ridiculous and also the ladt time I fly Delta.
I cannot find the law. Can some one please direct me to the mask-LAW which was enacted by Congress or Supremely solidified? No opinions please just law or facts. JetBlue claims there is a law by literature as do others but yet all I can find is an order. This should be illegal; false advertising at the least.
The United States has fallen when orders become laws holding on to the dust cloud as pea brains fly off the cliff. I hope there is a law because history is repetitive. A King mandates what is good and evil in the kingdom. I am here to the end because I have found no escape. We are watching the nation crumble and will have to rebuild it one right at a time.
Steig in den Zug ein.
i was wearing a mask on United and the whole time the lady next time was rubbing her elbow on my arm, this isn’t about health, it’s about control. if it was about our health, that seat would of been emptied for my health. What a joke!
Whether this is a “good idea” for the “people” or not is not the question. the question is. are mandates, guidelines, etc. law? Well if we go by the highest authority of the USA (the constitution) Article 1 section 1 (the very first sentences basically of the whole thing…..) “All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.” so based on the highest authority of the US, i would say there is no law that “mandates” masks, stay at home, vax passports, etc…. until congress passes something there is no law. and once they make a law, wouldn’t you just reference the amendments that these “mandates” break?
Its not a federal law, its not federal at all. Its a power grab for a non deadly disease. while many locked down in their homes for months, I was out working, working to pay my bills, to keep my job, my home and my creditability. No one in the airport, no one on the roads. Wearing a stupid mask is a joke, its not going to stop anything, lets see, we wear it on the plane, we take it off to drink and eat, guess what, we now have infected everyone. Its an absolute joke. Federal gov. needs to stay out of our lives and let us choose how we want to live it. I will say this for all. MY BODY, MY CHOICE. It applies here as well as where it came from. I will decide what goes in my body, not some uninformed suit trying to make us all follow or be punished.
@Brian R Dahl “Its not a federal law, its not federal at all.” it is a federal regulation which has the force of law (though may be challenged in court)
I understand its a federal regulation, what I don’t understand is why they are going to extreme measures to force all this crap on us. Its been almost 2 years, obviously, its not going away, so why are we fighting it. although, it seems we have completely cured the flu. cases are down over 300million apparently.
@Brian … Do you really want to know? … Pull the curtain and have a look at OZ … Read Paris Accord, New Green Deal, EROI Lambert 2010, do some research. Like energy over time, wind mills 680 ad, we (10,000 bc – present) have cycled through coal, oil, gas then boom 2 times and now on end of 3rd cycle in history.
Then reflect as to how you would get your nation to obey while you implemented the necessary means to line your friends pockets with horribly old technology in the name of green, track all peoples activities, and control supply lines in the name of safety. … Oil is done unless new technology assists its shortcomings; once 1000:1 is now as low as 12:1 on an eroi scale.
Yes, these days are the finishing touches of the 50 year cold war Benny the Bugler and Rosie the Riveter … 100 percent participation … Don’t take my words as fact look it up and read for oneself, maybe you will conclude a new world order? … I am 45 and never have I seen a complete shutdown of our law books, 2020 was great for drivers, and now we live the repercussions to come. Obey, or be reported, obey, or be excommunicated, obey for they or die with the old ways.
Read my writing on the wall
No-one’s here to catch me when I fall
Caught between my culture and the system….genocide! …
If ignorance is bliss, then knock the smile off my face ~ Rage Against The Machine ’90s
Federal Law?
Please provide the Bill number, the date it was passed in the House, the date it was passed in the Senate, and the date it was signed by Biden.
If you can’t, it’s not a FEDERAL LAW.
@Lyn
EXACTLY!!!
If it is a law, I want to see the bills that were passed in both houses of congress and I want to see the signed version by either Trump or Biden the usurper in chief that made it a law. Without any of those things, an executive order/regulation is not a law.
One minor detail;
MASKS DON’T WORK!
The airport and airlines need to stop lying. It’s not federal law. In addition to the recording on repeat brainwashing people, masks do not keep a virus in or out.
I will just say this, I have read all the comments. I will once again say it plainly, If you want to wear a mask, wear it, if you want to get a shot, get it. But you do not get to impose your beliefs on me or force me to do something I don’t want to. It’s really that simple. I have no problem that you got the shot or you want to kill your children by making them wear a mask, its your right. Just know, that’s what your doing, so to the guy with the school teacher wife, making them kids wear a mask is the single dumbest thing your wife and you could be doing. Kids are not at risk, they are not in harms way and as an educator, your wife needs to understand what she is doing is as wrong as peeing into the wind. They are trying to divide this country, don’t let them do it. Freedom is a choice. I have the right to choose and so do you. Don’t let them take that away.
More people died in 1918/19 from bacterial pneumonia FROM WEARING MASKS than died from the infamous 1918 Spanish Flu. Fraudi actually wrote a paper about it. Masks don’t work to stop viruses. They do work to control people, though.
There is no federal mask law. I looked for the house and/or senate vote on this matter, but could not find one. Only congress can make a law. The airlines, and we the people, have been “punked’.
The whole thing is ridiculous. The masks do nothing. The vaccine by admission of the Pfizer CEO does nothing. I’m in an airport right now. Not masked and not one person has said a word. No one cares anymore. The scamdemic is over.
@gus – Who cares if it’s a legal order. Just wear your mask for an hour or two and enjoy the trip. Until 95% of people are vaccinated we shouldn’t even be questioning it
Gus, to attempt to answer your sheeply dialog would be useless. You must be a “bot” or other A.I. creation meant to illicit anger from the readers of this blog. If you let the government exceed their Constitutional and God given rights then you will eventually rationalize your own demise. Thanks but no thanks.
Let’s get this straight, the masks do not perform the function of preventing transmission (two years worth of studies in several countries) nor does the “vaccination” immunize a person. (actually not an approved FDA product except under EUA, for the purpose of eliminating litigation from the drug companies)
The “mandates” for masks or vaccinations are the best example of medical fascism. CDC and FDA presently have data showing the negative and side effects (transitory and permanent) of the MRNA drugs. They are choosing to continue “mandates” for financial and political reasons promoted by Anthony Fauci.
Note that the really serious medical conditions will result in a large percentage of the population after a second or third shot. The deaths are avoidable but that doesn’t matter to the drug companies selling “experimental drugs” to the government.
When the final results are in, you, Gus, will regret (for humanity, if you have a conscious) and for yourself, maybe, AND IT WILL BE TOO LATE.
@GUS @gus – Who cares if it’s a legal order. Just wear your mask for an hour or two and enjoy the trip. Until 95% of people are vaccinated we shouldn’t even be questioning it
.
The ultimate question: If you are vaccinated, why do you care if others are not or don’t wear masks? Answer: The vaccines are not working, they don’t eliminate transmission nor prevent contracting the virus. Would you put water in your gas tank ? only once……
.
Next question: why would you vaccinate a segment of the population whose immune systems already moderate and eliminate naturally SAR2-CoViD-19 ? (to make money)
.
Spike protein MRNA vaccines continue to operate in a persons body to the detriment of the immune system and T-Cell operational coding. Once you mess up your immune system you will not get the protection naturally available.
I like Brian’s response because it represents a freedom approach. I agree that all of this mandate crap should be a choice by individuals. BUT
—–Every day that goes by and every bit of information garnered from Doctors (McCullough, Cole, Malone) tells me in very technical but understandable terms that these CoVid-19 mandates and fascism should have been rejected two years ago. The CDC and FDA are not telling all the VAERS statistics and the drug companies “experimental drugs” are permanently damaging peoples immune systems without any evidence of efficacy nor durability nor a good reason for their continued use. THE VACCINES HAVE A MUCH HIGHER RISK OF NEGATIVE EFFECTS THAN ANY OF THE COVID VARIANTS. And the younger you are, the more permanent damage will result.
BEWARE: second and third shots will be the bane of many peoples existence —literally